Spring Triple

[angler]

The question I have is whether that sum is enough for the product to remain competitive to other major ski areas. Maybe ownership should take a ride to Okemo, Stowe or Jay on a busy Saturday and check out the conditions and lines. Maybe they should sample their own product on a busy Saturday after the dust is skied off. After waiting in line like those of us with only a season pass.

In another thread about snowmaking, someone asked how can we possibly improve snowmaking since we have 100% coverage on snowmaking trails. Simple...create a surface that is skiable for intermediates after 9:30 on a Saturday on blue trails. Seriously, it is as simple as that. That is a very, very low bar, but a goal that is rarely if ever reached. Make the place skiable. Get rid of the perma-whales with their horrendous sheets of ice on trails like Lower Organgrinder and Snowball. Make the cruising trails into cruising trails. So people can actually cruise. Take a few minutes and watch the customers try to ski down Snowball in the section just after the entrance to Moonshine. It is a disaster, they cannot ski it. Watch those same folks try to ski Downspout, same deal. Or the end of the traverse. It is a nightmare. I enjoy Paradise and Castlerock, etc., but the majority of my guests and friends just want skiable blue cruisers. And I really like to rip at high speeds on a nice groomer. I'm 50, in a few short years I will be limited to less difficult trails. It would be nice if they were fun to ski, rather than skied off "dust on crust".

I'm betting that more improvements will come. More tickets sold means more revenue, and then larger budgets for infrastructure. I can't imagine that management is trying to create a brand around low quality product at a low price. Right now, cheap tickets, lift lines, and surface conditions are pointing in that direction, but I think it is temporary.

I think you are spot on. My question is why should we think this is temporary? There is no evidence to support this assumption. IMO the small changes they did to the mountain equates to putting oil in your car. Minimum requirement! I was at Stowe the other day and three different sets of people on three consecutive lift rides told me they use to be season pass holders at SB and switched because of all the reasons that have been discussed on this forum. Its hard to believe that management is not aware of these problems. The attitude is, like our mountain the way it is or go somewhere else. All anyone has to do is go to the other mountains you mentioned to witness the improvements that have been made and they will realize that SB is far behind the competition on many levels. Whats really disheartening is the attitude "I have not been on this thread for a while and may not be back for awhile as it really does get tiring listening to some of this misinformation."
Are you serious you own a business, you don't like hearing the truth so you are going to put your head in the sand and ignore it? Couldn't believe I read that. So for that and multiple other reasons I am not as hopeful as you.

[Go Figure]

Watch the Bravo webcam. More of the crappy swales of snow from the low-e guns. If you watch skiers go over them they do not make a dent in pile. This is "fresh frozen" product from last night. Same junk behind the lodge. The footprints are frozen snapshots as the guns were shut off and the pile of "snow" set up like a brick.

The Tree, Little Johns was a fun place.

[ThinkSno]

I am not sure, but I think Summit Ventures....Replaced the pond after Irene.

Simple...create a surface that is skiable for intermediates after 9:30 on a Saturday on blue trails. Seriously, it is as simple as that. That is a very, very low bar, but a goal that is rarely if ever reached. Make the place skiable. Get rid of the perma-whales with their horrendous sheets of ice on trails like Lower Organgrinder and Snowball. Make the cruising trails into cruising trails. So people can actually cruise. Take a few minutes and watch the customers try to ski down Snowball in the section just after the entrance to Moonshine. It is a disaster, they cannot ski it. Watch those same folks try to ski Downspout, same deal. Or the end of the traverse. It is a nightmare. I enjoy Paradise and Castlerock, etc., but the majority of my guests and friends just want skiable blue cruisers. And I really like to rip at high speeds on a nice groomer. I'm 50, in a few short years I will be limited to less difficult trails. It would be nice if they were fun to ski, rather than skied off "dust on crust".

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but if the pond was damaged due to Irene, wouldn't insurance cover that?

A possible solution to poor snow years could be to follow other southern NE ski area snow management-- temporarily close trails throughout the day & groom them back into shape.

[Hawk]

I have to admit I forgot about a few of those items. You are right. One thing, I do not think that lodges are considered realestate as you do not sell them. They are infrstructure but the breakdown needs to come form Win. We can only speculate.

Let's be fair a lot of work has gone into the mountain recently. I am not sure, but I think Summit Ventures replaced the Castlerock chair. Replaced a chair at ME. Replaced the water pipe from the pond. Replaced the pond after Irene. Built the base lodges at LP. Bought some guns and 3 or 4 groomers. Opened up loads of awesome glades. I think that may add up to $50M.

The question I have is whether that sum is enough for the product to remain competitive to other major ski areas. Maybe ownership should take a ride to Okemo, Stowe or Jay on a busy Saturday and check out the conditions and lines. Maybe they should sample their own product on a busy Saturday after the dust is skied off. After waiting in line like those of us with only a season pass.

In another thread about snowmaking, someone asked how can we possibly improve snowmaking since we have 100% coverage on snowmaking trails. Simple...create a surface that is skiable for intermediates after 9:30 on a Saturday on blue trails. Seriously, it is as simple as that. That is a very, very low bar, but a goal that is rarely if ever reached. Make the place skiable. Get rid of the perma-whales with their horrendous sheets of ice on trails like Lower Organgrinder and Snowball. Make the cruising trails into cruising trails. So people can actually cruise. Take a few minutes and watch the customers try to ski down Snowball in the section just after the entrance to Moonshine. It is a disaster, they cannot ski it. Watch those same folks try to ski Downspout, same deal. Or the end of the traverse. It is a nightmare. I enjoy Paradise and Castlerock, etc., but the majority of my guests and friends just want skiable blue cruisers. And I really like to rip at high speeds on a nice groomer. I'm 50, in a few short years I will be limited to less difficult trails. It would be nice if they were fun to ski, rather than skied off "dust on crust".

I'm betting that more improvements will come. More tickets sold means more revenue, and then larger budgets for infrastructure. I can't imagine that management is trying to create a brand around low quality product at a low price. Right now, cheap tickets, lift lines, and surface conditions are pointing in that direction, but I think it is temporary.

[HowieT2]

It is my opinion and I'm glad you feel I'm allowed it. However just because you disagree doesn't make everyone else a whiner or create a need to focus on the individuals as opposed to the mountain. If you think the mountain is great back it up. Tell me about the tons of man made snow you've skied on. How smooth it was and how quick the lift lines were. How it feels like old times. Win hears compliments to his face and he heads off in a certain direction. That's because people are being polite or don't feel comfortable telling him what they really think. The internet gives the opportunity for anonymous feedback, but because of that it is usually honest. When a liftie asks me how my day is. Why should I complain to him? He's freezing his butt off working while I'm skiing. It';s not his fault. "Having a great day. Thanks." With a smile. He deserves it. When asked on a forum where you can speak freely and the other party is also sitting behind a desk in the warmth reading it? Game on.

I would also have to disagree with which lift is in most need. I keep seeing people say the Valley D shuts down a lot or is on wind hold a lot. I honestly can't remember a time that it was, but I admit perhaps I have selective memory. That's a low lying fixed grip double that doesn't get above the trees. I've seen caution tape on broken chairs. I've seen all of the other lower mountain lifts closed and hiked up to it to do reverse traverse to get to HG which was on wind hold so I could be first in line on a powder day when it did open. Now VD may not be the most pretty lift and perhaps this offends Ricebrookers so it's gotta go. (Personally I like the old school look) However the lifts that need to be looked are are the ones that break down all of the time. Looking at you North Ridge. Could there be a less reliable chair? I'd count on Lucy holding the football for me to kick before I'd count on NR. That thing is made of paper mache.

Again my memory could be slipping but I thought the new lodge (farmhouse) came first. Then Claybrook. Claybrook did not bring the new lodge though maybe it was done because no one would pay the asking prices for Claybrook if the lodge was a giant tent. What I mean is that the revenue for Claybrook did not pay for the lodge. Again thought I would be wrong here. It's been a while.

Bad snowmaking doesn't make lines? Did you ski on OG that weekend SB and GH went down? It was glass. Un-edgeable. Like only the kind you can find when the snow that was made on it ages ago was like spraying a water cannon. Ripcord? Only slightly better. As the day went on and it finally started snowing it actually got pretty good. Imagine that. Snow on a trail made the conditions better. What I'm saying here though is that HG was so bad that no one was skiing it which forced people to other lifts and made the lines even longer. Down goes GH again. Let's get in the SB line. Down goes SB.

Yes. natural snow trails not being open exasperate the problem. Agreed. However it also helps highlight there are issues. Every year we go through a "snow making sucks" thread. Then mother nature comes in and bails out the Bush. We're all happy and skiing and everyone forgets about how bad the snow making is. Add in the quad packs this year, longer lines, more lifts breaking, and a stingy mother nature and the problems are in your face an unavoidable.

I really am sorry to hear about your bad experiences. As I said, I was away the last 2 weekends and so didnt have to deal with both SB and GH being down (however, my wife and kids were up skiing and didnt report any such fiasco). I'd imagine that would be quite the shit show. Otherwise, I have been around and skied about 15 days and havent had a problem with the conditions other than the gnar that mother nature stuck us with in January. I dont ascribe the conditions to poorly executed snowmaking but to the fact that for a month we have been alternating between temps 20 below zero and rain. one can choose to blame the management for this, but personally I think that is misplaced.

As far as on mtn improvements, your recollection is faulty. Claybrook was built at the same time as the new gatehouse. The farmhouse and schoolhouse a year or two afterwards. perhaps you dont recall, but those lodges were a priority for capital improvements at the time. If there is any criticism to be leveled with respect to them, it is that they should have built the schoolhouse bigger with a cafeteria that could accommodate all the kids, such that they wouldnt be crowding up the gatehouse.

With respect to the valley double, I dont think that has much impact on the experience of the majority of skiers, other than beginners taking lessons. someone posted above that it should be replaced with a hsq which, given the length of the lift, is not necessary at all. Regardless, that lift is being moved and I assume refurbished in the process.
As for the Northridge, my experience has been that since they had dopplemyer come in and rework it, its been reliable the last few seasons. It was a disaster before that, but my understanding is that those issues were resolved. Dont know what's going on there this year, but I was under the impression that the NRX did not need to be replaced.

Bottom line is, we have had a horrific stretch of weather impacting conditions and operations. I understand everyones frustrations. I too would like to ski some good snow, in the woods and do what I love to do. and I think this forum is a good place for constructive criticism, but it seemed to me that the complaining above was more in the nature of venting frustrations and tossing blame grenades at the management.

[chrisinvermont]

One thing, I do not think that lodges are considered realestate as you do not sell them. They are infrstructure but the breakdown needs to come form Win. We can only speculate.

True, we need Win to break it down. I work nationally in real estate development so when I parse Wins comment that it doesn't include real estate development, the key word is development. Clay brook and rice brook are what I would consider real estate development as they were developed and sold for profit. The lodges I would not consider a development in a real estate sense, they are infrastructure for the ski area and essentially required for a ski area. The base lodges aren't sold to others.

If the $50 million doesn't include the base lodges then they must have hired Bob Kiss to manage the upgrades because it sure doesn't look like $50 mil in lifts and snow making as discussed earlier. So far we have identified GMX and Castlerock lifts and some snowmaking guns, part of which was funded by GMVSS.

[HowieT2]

I think you are spot on. My question is why should we think this is temporary? There is no evidence to support this assumption. IMO the small changes they did to the mountain equates to putting oil in your car. Minimum requirement! I was at Stowe the other day and three different sets of people on three consecutive lift rides told me they use to be season pass holders at SB and switched because of all the reasons that have been discussed on this forum. Its hard to believe that management is not aware of these problems. The attitude is, like our mountain the way it is or go somewhere else. All anyone has to do is go to the other mountains you mentioned to witness the improvements that have been made and they will realize that SB is far behind the competition on many levels. Whats really disheartening is the attitude "I have not been on this thread for a while and may not be back for awhile as it really does get tiring listening to some of this misinformation."
Are you serious you own a business, you don't like hearing the truth so you are going to put your head in the sand and ignore it? Couldn't believe I read that. So for that and multiple other reasons I am not as hopeful as you.

The problem with what you are arguing is that, putting aside anecdotes of people on a lift at stowe, skier visits, season ticket sales, blazer participation has been going up significantly. So the fact is that the mtn is growing and people arent leaving as you say they are. and the people of the MRV chose a long time ago, not to go the path of large scale development like Stowe, ktown, stratton etc. so you can't expect to have the same funds for capital improvements. and I dont want to speak for Win, but what do you want him to say in response to "the mtn sucks, snowmaking sucks, the lifts suck, the crowds suck" which is basically what was being said.

[MntMan4Bush]

Fair enough on my memory of when the Farmhouse was built. As I said I didn't really recall the timing of it all. Feels like a long time ago and kin of blends together. I'd agree with your statement that the cafeteria is a bit small and add so is the CRP and it also feels like a dungeon, but after enough drinks I hardly notice/care. It's the way it is now and not much can be done about it.

However if it was built the same time as Claybrook, then unless pre-sales of Claybrook units covered both the expense of Claybrook itself and the Farmhouse it may not be fair to say that Claybrook funded it. Again I could be wrong, but I think it was likely an investment to make Claybrook more attractive. For the price of a unit at Clayrbook I'd be pretty steamed if I shelled that out and then had such a nice condo sitting next to such a crummy lodge with a tent extension for the cafeteria.

I think we are in agreement of the VD. It doesn't have much of an impact. I will further add that it almost never goes down. That is why I, and others, question why that is the lift that is being replaced and focused on when so many other lifts have service issues. I have to respectfully, and if need be disrespectfully (I'll do it), disagree about NRX. That lift has always been terrible. The last few years included and especially again this year. Nothing was resolved. Dopplemeyer handed them a broomstick handle and told them when you hear a rattle poke this up above to put the line back on track. Saw them doing it. Best fix ever. Made me feel real secure and confident in the reliability while riding it. (Alright probably wans't what Dopp told them, but it's what they were doing)

Mother nature has handed out some bad cards, but that's kind of the point. Other mountains, in the same snow bands, given the same cards, have performed remarkably better because they have a solid snow making infrastructure that they invested in and produce quality snow. When we get weather like this we can sit around and blame mother nature and wait for her to change her mind on what season it is, meanwhile skiing garbage, or we can do something about it and make good snow so the paying customers can enjoy their experience. That decision lies with management so the blame should too. If all other mountains were crippled right now offering the same icy garbage then I wouldn't have any argument.

[HowieT2]

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but if the pond was damaged due to Irene, wouldn't insurance cover that?

A possible solution to poor snow years could be to follow other southern NE ski area snow management-- temporarily close trails throughout the day & groom them back into shape.

I think thats a good suggestion. They did that a couple years ago when they would groom north lynx at lunchtime.

I dont think insurance covered the snowmaking pond from irene. At least that is what I recall. I dont know why, but I think it cost them close to 1m.

[Hawk]

Howie, I share the frustration of what Mtnman is saying. I will agree with the basic evaluation. The place has been crazy busy since Christmas and the lift stopages didn't help. It is my opinion that it is the result of the 4 packs. That opinion is shared by every last one of us that come here all the time. Take it for what it is, an opinion. We also think that the increased skier visits from 4 packs, consistant problems with lifts and sub par snow making will destroy the reputation of the resort.

I guess I shouldn't care. eventually we will have the place back to ourselves. It's just a waiting game.

[sglatham]

So I had been surprised that Win hadn't chimed in on these threads lately. Now I am surprised that he did so in the manner that he has. Uncharacteristic of him.

Fact of the matter, as the saying goes, when the tide goes out you find out who is naked. In this year (so far) of a natural snow low tide, the 'Bush is naked when compared to the competition. And in a competitive world, that is all that matters. The rest is noise........

[Fourwide]

The problem with what you are arguing is that, putting aside anecdotes of people on a lift at stowe, skier visits, season ticket sales, blazer participation has been going up significantly. So the fact is that the mtn is growing and people arent leaving as you say they are. and the people of the MRV chose a long time ago, not to go the path of large scale development like Stowe, ktown, stratton etc. so you can't expect to have the same funds for capital improvements. and I dont want to speak for Win, but what do you want him to say in response to "the mtn sucks, snowmaking sucks, the lifts suck, the crowds suck" which is basically what was being said.

Very good point, Howie. There's definitely room for improvement, but Win has put a ton of $$ into the mountain and will continue to do so. Many of the criticisms voiced in this thread are fair, but (as was noted at the start of this discussion), it's a great mountain and getting better. I definitely agree with the point re. improving conditions for the intermediate skier. So, let's be patient, let ownership continue to develop what certainly appears to be a sound plan, put some more snow on those icy whales, and pray for snow (and Northridge)!

[angler]

The problem with what you are arguing is that, putting aside anecdotes of people on a lift at stowe, skier visits, season ticket sales, blazer participation has been going up significantly. So the fact is that the mtn is growing and people arent leaving as you say they are. and the people of the MRV chose a long time ago, not to go the path of large scale development like Stowe, ktown, stratton etc. so you can't expect to have the same funds for capital improvements. and I dont want to speak for Win, but what do you want him to say in response to "the mtn sucks, snowmaking sucks, the lifts suck, the crowds suck" which is basically what was being said.

I'm not saying that everyone is leaving SB for other mountains. I was sharing my experience to point out that the contributors on this forum are not the only ones to feel this way. What you said about skier visits, blazer participation, season ticket sales, quad packs, ect ect...goes right to the heart of what we have been saying. The infrastructure of SB is not up to the task of providing a quality skier visit when the mountain is not subsidized with natural snow. What we are doing is comparing other mountains in the same band width as SB. In doing so, SB falls short in keeping up with their competition. I don't think we should give SB a get out of jail card (for free) because there has been a lack natural snow. Just the opposite they should be aggressively upgrading the lift systems and snowmaking to keep up with the times. If you want to use another word besides suck, we can. The mountains infrastructure when it comes to snow making, and lift system is below par with other mountains that SB is competing with. I would like Win to acknowledge the obvious, while discussing the 3- 5 year plan to address the issues at hand instead of saying what he said. One would think with all his business experience he would have the ability to overlook form to hear the substance of what we are saying.

[HowieT2]

I'm not saying that everyone is leaving SB for other mountains. I was sharing my experience to point out that the contributors on this forum are not the only ones to feel this way. What you said about skier visits, blazer participation, season ticket sales, quad packs, ect ect...goes right to the heart of what we have been saying. The infrastructure of SB is not up to the task of providing a quality skier visit when the mountain is not subsidized with natural snow. What we are doing is comparing other mountains in the same band width as SB. In doing so, SB falls short in keeping up with their competition. I don't think we should give SB a get out of jail card (for free) because there has been a lack natural snow. Just the opposite they should be aggressively upgrading the lift systems and snowmaking to keep up with the times. If you want to use another word besides suck, we can. The mountains infrastructure when it comes to snow making, and lift system is below par with other mountains that SB is competing with. I would like Win to acknowledge the obvious, while discussing the 3- 5 year plan to address the issues at hand instead of saying what he said. One would think with all his business experience he would have the ability to overlook form to hear the substance of what we are saying.

Well said. And I agree that there are capital investments that need to be made to maintain a good experience. My impression of the beginning if this thread, though, was that everyone was venting frustration and there really wasn't a way to respond.
Fwiw, like I said, I haven't been around the last 2 weekends, and with slidebrook out of action, haven't been to mt Ellen more than 3-4 days. But my son has been working ski patrol over there every weekend, and he said the nrx hasn't been a problem since they fixed the issue that arose before Xmas. So I am at a loss to understand all the complaints about it on here.
As for snowmaking, seems to me all the snowmaking trails are open so there is no issue with the volume of snow they are producing. Hawk will tell me that the "quality" of the snow is crap, but I'm not qualified to render an opinion about that do I'll skip the debate.

Also, hawk, I don't know how many more people have been lured to the mtn by the quad passes. EVery one I know who purchased, was coming regardless. I do know that skier visits are up, but I don't know that the quad passes have induced a significant increase. Anyone know the numbers???

[Hawk]

I have asked this question and from People who work at the mountain and from my own inquiries arond the mountain there is no denying that the quad packs have increased the skier visits. I do not know the numbers but have heard that is was significant. It's funny you say that becase everyone i know and everyone I have talk to that has a paper ticket confirmed to me that they bought a quad pack so I feel that my obsevation is correct.

Well said. And I agree that there are capital investments that need to be made to maintain a good experience. My impression of the beginning if this thread, though, was that everyone was venting frustration and there really wasn't a way to respond.
Fwiw, like I said, I haven't been around the last 2 weekends, and with slidebrook out of action, haven't been to mt Ellen more than 3-4 days. But my son has been working ski patrol over there every weekend, and he said the nrx hasn't been a problem since they fixed the issue that arose before Xmas. So I am at a loss to understand all the complaints about it on here.
As for snowmaking, seems to me all the snowmaking trails are open so there is no issue with the volume of snow they are producing. Hawk will tell me that the "quality" of the snow is crap, but I'm not qualified to render an opinion about that do I'll skip the debate.

Also, hawk, I don't know how many more people have been lured to the mtn by the quad passes. EVery one I know who purchased, was coming regardless. I do know that skier visits are up, but I don't know that the quad passes have induced a significant increase. Anyone know the numbers???