New Snow Guns

[Brew Ski]

fwiw it was 28-30 degrees at the base during the day on saturday and sunday. dont know what the "wet bulb" was. and it's fair to assume that observations of the gun settings and output were made during the day.
and I dont think it's as simple as saying "the guns either make snow or they dont". it seems obvious that if that were true they wouldnt have settings at all.
you might be correct to the extent that in marginal temperatures these new guns may not be an improvement over the old ones.

False argument on the snow gun setting. It is true that they either make snow or not. If the temp is cold, compressed air and water will make ice crystals. Period. The settings allow one to control the quality or amount of snow. If you are spreading snow over the base area to make the lift corrals and surrounding area covered with a thick blanket that can stand up to traffic, you want full power. If you are pointing the gun diagonal across the trail to cover a narrow path, you turn the volume down to restrict flow to control the area that gets covered. Furthermore settings let you mix the air to water ratio giving you heavier wet snow or drier lighter snow, temp dependent. I believe the website for these guns suggested making better snow at warmer temps, suggesting that 28F at the base is plenty cold for making snow. In fact, the guns were on and making snow. That bit of evidence suggests that the guns do in fact make snow at warmer temperatures. Which of course brings the question to mind, that if the snow guns can handle making snow at 28F at the base on Saturday, then at higher elevations where the temps were colder the guns could have been opened full throttle. I know, I sound like Hawk here. Just saying that the guns are using less air, making snow at warmer temps, are significantly quieter and perhaps more aesthetically pleasing, effectively fulfilling the marketing propaganda, and yet not being used to full capacity. Seems like something is missing from the equation, no?

[gostan]

The quality of the snow made on Jester & Downspout was very good.

[HowieT2]

False argument on the snow gun setting. It is true that they either make snow or not. If the temp is cold, compressed air and water will make ice crystals. Period. The settings allow one to control the quality or amount of snow. If you are spreading snow over the base area to make the lift corrals and surrounding area covered with a thick blanket that can stand up to traffic, you want full power. If you are pointing the gun diagonal across the trail to cover a narrow path, you turn the volume down to restrict flow to control the area that gets covered. Furthermore settings let you mix the air to water ratio giving you heavier wet snow or drier lighter snow, temp dependent. I believe the website for these guns suggested making better snow at warmer temps, suggesting that 28F at the base is plenty cold for making snow. In fact, the guns were on and making snow. That bit of evidence suggests that the guns do in fact make snow at warmer temperatures. Which of course brings the question to mind, that if the snow guns can handle making snow at 28F at the base on Saturday, then at higher elevations where the temps were colder the guns could have been opened full throttle. I know, I sound like Hawk here. Just saying that the guns are using less air, making snow at warmer temps, are significantly quieter and perhaps more aesthetically pleasing, effectively fulfilling the marketing propaganda, and yet not being used to full capacity. Seems like something is missing from the equation, no?

I think whats missing is our understanding of how these things actually work. I believe the settings are to account for differing temperatures. I was told on sunday that
their performance so far in borderline temperatures has not been great. I took this to mean, that in higher temperatures, they required significantly more air than the
5cfm they use under optimal conditions. I could very well be wrong, but i think the settings control the air water mix and the higher the temperatures, the more air
required. Fwiw- i was also told that they were running the system at maximum air capacity.
I only took a few runs on saturday but i dont recall seeing any of the new guns up there.

[Tin Woodsman]

I think whats missing is our understanding of how these things actually work.

When has that ever stopped us?

I could very well be wrong, but i think the settings control the air water mix and the higher the temperatures, the more air
required. Fwiw- i was also told that they were running the system at maximum air capacity.

And therein lies the problem. When your primary bottleneck is air, that really hurts you early season when temps tend to be more marginal and windows shorter, and we are seeing the results of that this year.

[HowieT2]

When has that ever stopped us?


And therein lies the problem. When your primary bottleneck is air, that really hurts you early season when temps tend to be more marginal and windows shorter, and we are seeing the results of that this year.

which likely explains why other mountains have focused their recent investments in fan guns.

[Tin Woodsman]

which likely explains why other mountains have focused their recent investments in fan guns.

Which implies that we here on this board are collectively missing....something. I had long argued that fan guns would seem to be something of a panacea in that they can materially increase snow output w/o requiring additional air. SB must have concluded that the economics don't work for them for some reason. I hope it isn't the significant ($35K installed per gun) up front capital cost that is the primary factor as opposed to pure operational considerations. Either way, we don't have the full picture in some regard.

[HowieT2]

Which implies that we here on this board are collectively missing....something. I had long argued that fan guns would seem to be something of a panacea in that they can materially increase snow output w/o requiring additional air. SB must have concluded that the economics don't work for them for some reason. I hope it isn't the significant ($35K installed per gun) up front capital cost that is the primary factor as opposed to pure operational considerations. Either way, we don't have the full picture in some regard.

well, I guess, the fan guns, while increasing capacity, dont improve the efficiency of the system overall and in the long run the snow logic guns have the potential to increase capacity while significantly lowering costs. Problem is, in the weather regime we are in now, with intermittent marginal snowmaking temperatures to start the season, the new guns arent adding to capacity (because they arent operating in their sweet spot) and so a bunch of fan guns would really be helpful. can they rent those suckers?

[shadyjay]

Fan guns need power and there isn't any power hookups in large scale except in the base area. And above Allyn's Lodge, there's no power at all.

There are a couple fanguns but they don't stray far from the Snow Creek access and the Gate House base area, and of course the Polecat tower gun where the pipe used to be at Mt Ellen. They do make good snow (I used them at previous ski areas I worked at in CT), but again, you need the power capacity at the hydrant stations (or nearby). Additional power consumption could possibly lead to additional GMP power restrictions.

What we need RIGHT NOW is the weather pattern to change more than ever... more nights in the teens (and nights in the single digits), days in the low-mid 20s, mixed in with some descent snowfalls.

EDIT: Accuweather as of right now is showing snow for the 21-27 (except ice on the 22 (but perhaps not at mtn level) and on Christmas Day). Given the ability for forecasters to "barely get it right" 24 hours in advance, I'm not holding my breath, but it could end the whole snowmaking / capacity debate if it delivers the goods and in quantity.

[Tin Woodsman]

Fan guns need power and there isn't any power hookups in large scale except in the base area. And above Allyn's Lodge, there's no power at all.

Truth. This would require some investment to get power up the hill.

There are a couple fanguns but they don't stray far from the Snow Creek access and the Gate House base area, and of course the Polecat tower gun where the pipe used to be at Mt Ellen. They do make good snow (I used them at previous ski areas I worked at in CT), but again, you need the power capacity at the hydrant stations (or nearby). Additional power consumption could possibly lead to additional GMP power restrictions.

Here's where I think the math starts to get fuzzy. Do the fan guns really result in additional power consumption? I ask b/c if, for example, you installed them on Spring Fling (to pick a run), all the power that you used compressing/heating air at the base and shoving it uphill would no longer be needed, right? We know those fan guns produce more snow per gun. I guess the question is what does the power consumption look like per unit of snow produced as between traditional air/water technology and fan guns. This discussion introduces a third bottleneck area in the snowmaking debate: power (on top of air and water).

Knowing the power limitations, my hypothesis is that the selection over the last few years of increasingly efficient air/water guns is largely related to the desire to create more headroom on both their air AND their power consumption bottlenecks. While I'd prefer to be sking, this is a pretty fascinating subject in the inteirm.

[Hawk]

well, I guess, the fan guns, while increasing capacity, dont improve the efficiency of the system overall and in the long run the snow logic guns have the potential to increase capacity while significantly lowering costs. Problem is, in the weather regime we are in now, with intermittent marginal snowmaking temperatures to start the season, the new guns arent adding to capacity (because they arent operating in their sweet spot) and so a bunch of fan guns would really be helpful. can they rent those suckers?

OK I can't stay out of this. My problem with the temp excuse is why aren't the other areas having a problem blowing snow and expanding trails and we are. The temps on many nights were not marginal over the last two weeks. We are floundering on keeping one route in good condition and had serious trouble getting the route to the bottom open. Other areas have 5 to 10 routes open top to bottom and are expanding every 3 days. I might add that some of these places have a top elevation that is roughly the same as Allyns. I also thought that the new guns were supposed to operate better with marginal temp conditions? Maybe not. To sit hear and think that mother nature is going to come it and save the day every year is just sticking your head in the sand. I am not going to debate the Air Water argument any more. It is simple and there is no mystery. You need more air to produce good quality snow at high temps. When the Temp goes down, you turn the air down. Have you ever seen the snow makers standing under the snow fall out with thier arm out? They are testing the snow quality. If the flakes or little pellets are bouncing off their arm then they are good. If they hit and stick it means they need more air. Actually a friend of mine that instucted me back in the day said he could tell if the mix was proper by the size and shape of the snow pellets. I couldn't tell the difference. All the wet bulb talk is for marginal conditions. 25 degrees and falling is not marginal. We have had many nights below 25 degrees.

As stated before it is what it is. The management has made their decision and we are going to live with it good or bad.

[smb1789]

I understand we all like what Win has done at Sugarbush but there is definitely an undeniable snowmaking issue. Almost every mountain in vt has more open and is in better shape and many of these places lack the natural attributes of Sugarbush. I refuse to think it has to do with even the current systems ability, because even smuggs is doing better and they aren't known to have a lot of snow making capacity. I really think sugarbush needs more air capacity, and needs more automation, before we talk about other improvements. It is simply taking too long to setup on each trail so moving is killing them. There is no reason why ripcord,organgrinder, and jester should not be open. I would thing even given the weather, with the capacity sugarbush has that they'd be able to open all three, and go top to bottom on downspout gondolier and maybe even do the traverse to spring fling, so as to have two routes down open. Arguably Win is doing worse with the snow making than ASC ever did, again like what he's done with the mountain, things are much nicer, food is better, but with regards to snowmaking it's like we don't have any. A real problem is they are trying to lay glaciers so they can stay open but it seems to get fouled up by the traffic and/or unexpected weather, I'd rather they be able to move around after they lay a foot or two of snow, but the lack of automation means they blow mountains long before it can be groomed. I'll add that at lincoln peak there are a few places fan guns would be very welcome, up spring fling, gatehouse, and on downspout(this sucker needs snow every few days). Maybe the new guns can help but I really think permanent tower installation provides the best chance at good snowmaking, so I could see installing some new guns on towers in places, the portable bit and those terrible ground guns are not really all that effective. All I know is that I've seen snow making in the Alps, where power is VERY expensive and they manage to do a better job than anywhere I've been in the states. They are more effective through automation, they aren't moving ground guns and hoses, they have some fanguns they move but mostly permanent fan guns and traditional towers. Win's got to do better if he wants to sell condos in this environment, I was considering buying a place but I'm really having second thoughts about sugarbush as an investment. If they can't have somewhat reliable conditions around christmas time it looks really bad, my friends who were with me last weekend pretty much said sugarbush sucks, they don't want to come here any more because when you plan in advance there's no reasonable expectation that the conditions will be reasonable even early season ONE BUSTED TRAIL!

[MntMan4Bush]

I think a big problem is that since they are only focused on one trail or one route it is quickly skied off because that's where all the traffic must go. So maybe if they tried getting a couple open off of HG then they wouldn't need to go back and freshen up Jester every day.

I admit it is frustrating looking at us tote hoses around like it's the 1950's or something. I was watching a group of patrollers unhook the hoses and load it into a sled to bring it to the next spot. One at a time. Don't get me wrong. Huge effort on the patrollers part and accolades to them for jumping in and helping, but it was painfully slow watching. Then they bring the sled back up and ski down and start over again. To move from one trail to the next to make snow takes forever. How about stepping into the new millennium with a bang and use one of them thar new fangled snoh-mohbeelz. How about having more than 10 hoses on the whole mountain (someone please correct my exaggeration) so we're not robbing Peter to pay Paul by having to take a whole system down and move it before starting some place new. I'll donate $10 and someone can go down to Ace and pick up a few lengths.(Someone please get angry and point out my flawed logic on the cost and type of hoses used)

We have some permanent tower guns on Ripcord. They're spaced out and need to be supplemented by other units to be 100% effective I'm sure but was it a surprise to anyone that winter was coming this year and trails might need some prep? How about turning those towers on and leaving them on while other trails are being blown? It at least gets some snow down on the trail and is a start and since their fixed in place shouldn't require to much to get them going. Also at higher elevation hopefully they wouldn't be subject to lower temps or require too much watching.

Of course we've all got "good" ideas and I'm sure petty things like logic, facts and money get in the way of our "fixing" the snowmaking issue, but can someone please get creative? And buying guns that don't work at higher temps is not the answer since when you need them most is at the start in marginal temps. If that rumor was true about the new guns all being on a setting of 1 out of 10 is true then that's just Bush League. That's turning guns on for show and nothing else. I'm sorry. Explain away all you want and fault my logic, but that's what it seems like.

The snowmaking has been terrible for years, but people either go to other mountains or don't have the energy to fight it. I'm happy to see finally some people who are voicing their opinions so it doesn't seem like a handful of dissidents. It's actually people who care about the mountain, truly appreciate Win for not only what he does to make SB better, but also that he puts up with our bitching and doesn't take it personally and people who have a vested interest in the Valley as a whole. The problem is that year after after mother nature eventually comes in and bails the mountain out. Last year it was a huge dumping that opened even CR. But everyone has a short memory and forgets that prior to that people were making the trip down to Killington or up to SR to escape weeks in a row of Jester-Downspout. So someone sticky this thread so when we get bailed out again and start dusting off our edges at the start of next year we don't forget.

[HowieT2]

couple of points- shady-true there isnt power to the upper mtn, but the fan guns are needed around the base area and there is power there. put 10 fan guns by the superbravo, valley house and up gondolier and you are significantly increasing how much snow is made. and since they are not using any air from the compressors, you can make more snow elsewhere.

I read a post on another board from someone at Stowe indicating they were taking a dust on ground approach just to get trails open and moving on and praying. whether this approach makes sense is up for debate, but I think a reasonable argument can be made that for the way sugarbush is approaching this. The former may boost trail count in the short run, but over the course of the season, it is better to lay a proper amount of snow before moving on.

I think we need to acknowledge that though SB invested in the new snow logic guns based on sound reasoning, the guns may not be performing up to expectations in the current conditions. I got the distinct impression from the person I spoke to (who shall remain nameless), that they were extremely disappointed in the performance so far. and about the settings issue, it defies reason to believe that SB is purposefully not making as much snow as they can. we can argue about whether they should get more fan guns, add compressors, automate, yada yada yada, but why in the world would they choose to restrict the output? that doesnt make any sense and is contrary to what I was told, which is that they were operating at maximum air capacity.

and Hawk, I have to disagree with you about the temperatures. They have been marginal at best with only a few nights dipping into the teens. I think december is running about 10 degrees above normal following a very warm november so the ground isnt even frozen.

All that being said, with the opening of mellon this weekend, the trail count will expand exponentially. so we got that going for us, which is nice.

[freeheel_skier]

I Win's got to do better if he wants to sell condos in this environment, I was considering buying a place but I'm really having second thoughts about sugarbush as an investment. If they can't have somewhat reliable conditions around christmas time it looks really bad, my friends who were with me last weekend pretty much said sugarbush sucks, they don't want to come here any more because when you plan in advance there's no reasonable expectation that the conditions will be reasonable even early season ONE BUSTED TRAIL!

Something is definetly wrong.......If I have to tell my kids this weekend that their programs (Micro and Mini Blazers) are not going out this weekend I am going to have a problem on my hands. The reason the younger kids are not getting out on the snow is due to lack of terrain. This is total bs! Baisically wasted $85.00/day on daycare for last weekend and the possibly this weekend. The activities last weekend included coloring and watching a movie. The kids didn't even go outside for a hike or over to the SHRC to run around/swim/rock wall. I recieved an email stating that there would be out door activities and pack accordingly. Basically the same one I recieved this am.

Many people have invested $$$ in this season by purchasing passes and putting kids in seasonal programs. If I want to put my kids in daycare while I mountain bike that is my choice. However, signing up for a seasonal program, gambling on the fact that there maybe a chance that they might not get out on snow.....There is something wrong here! More trails need to be open in marginal temps! Both could have skied Jester/Spout. However, the amount of traffic and the whole downloading ordeal I thought otherwise.

It will be interesting to see what the snow and route choices will be like this weekend @ ME.

[Tin Woodsman]

Talk about a tough begining of the year for SB. First they get his by $800K of unplanned expense/capital for repairing the snowmaking pond. Then they have to deal with temps that are a few standard deviations above the avg. When you top it all off with fancy new snowmaking guns that aren't performing as expected (if the rumors are to be believed), that's quite the triple whammy - close to a worst case scenario. Hopefully some good can come out of this by creating a "burning platform" to start seriously addressing this issue instead of chipping away at the margins.