SB's Attractiveness to Families vs. Singles

[Xskier]

A little off topic, but I lost 10 of the 15 people who were part of my ski house this year. High prices and lack of nightlife for single people were the main reason. I know there are places to go but after 4 years it just wasn't cutting it for them. I hope I can find people but the pool is dwindling fast. I used to know of over a dozen different ski houses up there and now I only know of a few. If I can't get people I will be forced to sell my house in a couple of years. In the 14 years I have owned I bet we have spend close to $200k at the mountain. Sugarbush has become too much of a high end family orientated mountain to keep the people that do my house to keep coming back. I feel the Castle Rock Pub was a good example of the low priority of non family skiers because they built the apre ski bar in the least disirable location in GateHouse. I can't stay in that place for more than 5 minutes. Its dark, crowded and depressing.

[gostan]

A little off topic, but I lost 10 of the 15 people who were part of my ski house this year. High prices and lack of nightlife for single people were the main reason. I know there are places to go but after 4 years it just wasn't cutting it for them. I hope I can find people but the pool is dwindling fast. I used to know of over a dozen different ski houses up there and now I only know of a few. If I can't get people I will be forced to sell my house in a couple of years. In the 14 years I have owned I bet we have spend close to $200k at the mountain. Sugarbush has become too much of a high end family orientated mountain to keep the people that do my house to keep coming back. I feel the Castle Rock Pub was a good example of the low priority of non family skiers because they built the apre ski bar in the least disirable location in GateHouse. I can't stay in that place for more than 5 minutes. Its dark, crowded and depressing.

Xskier: This is certainly not good, either for you or the mountain, or the valley. Out of curiosity, I have a few questions:

What was the average age of the 10?
How many of the 10 were first timers ski housers at SB last year?
How many of the 10 have committed to ski houses at other mountains?
How many of the 10 are just going to opt for paying to ski, as they go?

I am not trying to grill you, but there is a reason why there are "For Sale" signs up at non-mountain located bars, establishments, motels, etc., throughout various portions of NE Ski Country, and I do not think that it has anything to do with prioritizing family skiers.

[HowieT2]

A little off topic, but I lost 10 of the 15 people who were part of my ski house this year. High prices and lack of nightlife for single people were the main reason. I know there are places to go but after 4 years it just wasn't cutting it for them. I hope I can find people but the pool is dwindling fast. I used to know of over a dozen different ski houses up there and now I only know of a few. If I can't get people I will be forced to sell my house in a couple of years. In the 14 years I have owned I bet we have spend close to $200k at the mountain. Sugarbush has become too much of a high end family orientated mountain to keep the people that do my house to keep coming back. I feel the Castle Rock Pub was a good example of the low priority of non family skiers because they built the apre ski bar in the least disirable location in GateHouse. I can't stay in that place for more than 5 minutes. Its dark, crowded and depressing.

Interesting topic. Maybe it should be split off into a separate thread.

Hard for me to comment since its been a long time since I was single and in that demographic. But I have to agree that the nightlife in the MRV is limited at best. But what can SV do about that?
I don't think the placement of the CR pub or its design has anything to do with its attractiveness to singles as opposed to family types. Maybe they need to have more party specials or something. They do seem to have a good amount of live music. The fact that the CR pub is crowded belies your argument that it's not attractive. and wouldn't singles as opposed to family types prefer a crowded, busy bar? I dont think you would argue that the apres bar as it existed 14 years ago was better for singles.
Nor do I think the prices at SB are out of line with its competitors which are more "single" oriented. What "high prices" are you referring to?

[Hawk]

A little off topic, but I lost 10 of the 15 people who were part of my ski house this year. High prices and lack of nightlife for single people were the main reason. I know there are places to go but after 4 years it just wasn't cutting it for them. I hope I can find people but the pool is dwindling fast. I used to know of over a dozen different ski houses up there and now I only know of a few. If I can't get people I will be forced to sell my house in a couple of years. In the 14 years I have owned I bet we have spend close to $200k at the mountain. Sugarbush has become too much of a high end family orientated mountain to keep the people that do my house to keep coming back. I feel the Castle Rock Pub was a good example of the low priority of non family skiers because they built the apre ski bar in the least disirable location in GateHouse. I can't stay in that place for more than 5 minutes. Its dark, crowded and depressing.

xskier, I don't doubt your facts but I think there is a different reason for the percieved decline in Ski houses. It happens to every ski generation including mine. When I was in my 20's and early 30's I knew dozens of ski houses and was part of a huge community of skiers. But this crowd inevitibly grows up, has kids, gets jobs, finds responsibilties. Skiing goes out the window for about 10 to 15 years and then they are back as buyers and renters with kids. Don't get me wrong you need the night life and cheaper prices to get them hooked but that is not always importaint latter on. As said many times, there are many places that could be bought and made prosperous. Warren House, Phoenix, Egans come to mind. Someone needs to step up and make a go at it.
FYI in the last 2 years I have found a new group of younger houses to rip it up with. They are out there but I find it hard to keep up with them.

[Tin Woodsman]

A little off topic, but I lost 10 of the 15 people who were part of my ski house this year. High prices and lack of nightlife for single people were the main reason. I know there are places to go but after 4 years it just wasn't cutting it for them. I hope I can find people but the pool is dwindling fast. I used to know of over a dozen different ski houses up there and now I only know of a few. If I can't get people I will be forced to sell my house in a couple of years. In the 14 years I have owned I bet we have spend close to $200k at the mountain. Sugarbush has become too much of a high end family orientated mountain to keep the people that do my house to keep coming back. I feel the Castle Rock Pub was a good example of the low priority of non family skiers because they built the apre ski bar in the least disirable location in GateHouse. I can't stay in that place for more than 5 minutes. Its dark, crowded and depressing.

Interesting topic. Maybe it should be split off into a separate thread.

Hard for me to comment since its been a long time since I was single and in that demographic. But I have to agree that the nightlife in the MRV is limited at best. But what can SV do about that?
I don't think the placement of the CR pub or its design has anything to do with its attractiveness to singles as opposed to family types. Maybe they need to have more party specials or something. They do seem to have a good amount of live music. The fact that the CR pub is crowded belies your argument that it's not attractive. and wouldn't singles as opposed to family types prefer a crowded, busy bar? I dont think you would argue that the apres bar as it existed 14 years ago was better for singles.
Nor do I think the prices at SB are out of line with its competitors which are more "single" oriented. What "high prices" are you referring to?

If I were still single, I'd be a fan of the new CR Pub, though losing the views of the mountain and feeling like you're in a basement is a bit of a shame. It's loud and crowded at the end of the day, which is what I want when I'm looking to mingle. The old set-up was clearly better for families, as you could sort of hang out on the periphery with your kids while still getting to enjoy the music and general vibe. I think they've tried to compensate by putting music on the Timbers patio at times, but that's a tough sell on a colder mid-winter day. Good times when it warms up though.

[ski_resort_observer]

I feel the Castle Rock Pub was a good example of the low priority of non family skiers because they built the apre ski bar in the least disirable location in GateHouse. I can't stay in that place for more than 5 minutes. Its dark, crowded and depressing.

Reminds me of an old Yogi Berraism....."nobody goes there anymore cause it's too crowded"

Can't argue with anything you have said. No more Wobbly Barn or Rusty Nail type places in the valley anymore. In the last 10 years or so the MRV has lost most of it's live music/dancing nightlife tho during the "Mascara Mtn" days it had a strong singles scene. Check out the Warren Miller movie about the Bush filmed around 1962(?). Ten years ago we had Gallaghers, Mad Mtn Tavern, Blue Tooth for the live music dancing thing. All gone. The music scene has evolved to more low key music with several smaller venues so not much for the dancing crowd tho there are a few places that will kick it on a Sat night.

[win]

We do keep the CR Pub open many Saturday evenings during the ski season with live music and a lot of people seemed to enjoy it last winter. The Saturday night shuttle also runs so if you are worried about being stopped on the way home you can ride the shuttle. If you live in one of the mountain condos you don't have to worry because Village Road is private property.

Remember the Yogi Berra sayings: "It's too crowded. Nobody does there anymore." Some may not like the CR Pub but many seem too. If you want a view, we have the Wunderbar open on Saturdays and Holidays and the view from Timbers ain't too bad.

While some may not be coming any more our season pass sales have risen each of the past five years as have our adult and children's seasonal programs and despite the poor snow year and the economy we had the best year last year since we purchased Sugarbush from ASC. However, no business can be all things to all people. If you try to go that you will fail. The climate has changed everywhere, and this has hurt bars that depend on late night business.

Tin is right. We have the capacity to have more skiers and riders without taking away the experience that we all like. An extra 500-700 skiers and riders on weekends and holidays and some a couple of hundred midweek is what I we would ideally like to have. 400,000 visits is a lovely thought, but we don't need to be at that level to have a sustainable business that allows us to continue investing in the future.

We beleive that the day ticket rates we have are competitive with whom we see as our core competition. There are also alternative choices. The SugarDirect card will bring your average daily cost down to the mid-$60 range, and we will also offer again one-line non-refundable tickets that need to be bought 48 hours in advance and will be a discount to the window price. Both sold well last year. We also have a different price point at Mount Ellen, and this has increased our business there.

[Xskier]

What was the average age of the 10?
How many of the 10 were first timers ski housers at SB last year?
How many of the 10 have committed to ski houses at other mountains?
How many of the 10 are just going to opt for paying to ski, as they go?

I am not trying to grill you, but there is a reason why there are "For Sale" signs up at non-mountain located bars, establishments, motels, etc., throughout various portions of NE Ski Country, and I do not think that it has anything to do with prioritizing family skiers.[/quote]

1) Average age: 40
2) A few will do other mountains and in the past many have headed to Ktown
3) A few more just want to come up once in a while as guests.

My biggest concern is not losing people but attracting new people who don't have kids up to Sugarbush. I wish i could say that all everyone cared about was the best skiing in New England at any cost but cost and nightlife is a huge concern to the non hardcore skiers and I am having a hell of a time replacing the 10 people.

I disagree with your last point at least locally. Families eat at home and rarely go out drinking.. I have friends up there with houses who have families and they are not going out to eat or the bars.

[gostan]

My biggest concern is not losing people but attracting new people who don't have kids up to Sugarbush. I wish i could say that all everyone cared about was the best skiing in New England at any cost but cost and nightlife is a huge concern to the non hardcore skiers and I am having a hell of a time replacing the 10 people.

I disagree with your last point at least locally. Families eat at home and rarely go out drinking.. I have friends up there with houses who have families and they are not going out to eat or the bars.

Xskier, We all certainly wish you the best in finding new and compatible skiing souls to fill your house.

I really remain surprised at how many skiers I run into in the Boston area who have never ventured up to ski Sugarbush. Too many seem to stay within 2.5 hours of Boston by heading up 93 to NH, or get on the caravan to Sunday River. They do not know what they are missing.

Maybe some hard postings at local ski shops and internet postings at Facebook and (oh, no) Craigslist in Boston, CT & NY will help.

Being single myself, I would have to agree that there is a lack of nightlife and bars, etc. at SB, but at least I will get plenty of rest for the next day of skiing and riding. Seriously, it really does appear that additional nightlife venues are a prime necessity in order to keep a cross-section of the population coming to SB, particularly the casual skiing population.

When I was first introduced to Sugarbush in 1987-1994, we came up for weekends and school vacation weeks with another friends' family. We always opted for either a family dinner out for pizza or burgers on a Saturday evening, or fed the kids early and left them with a sitter and chinese food, while the grown-ups went out to Miguel's or The Common Man, etc. The last thing any of us wanted to do was to make dinner for 8 after working hard all week and skiing all day. Yes, it was expensive, but well worth the price of relaxation, as making meals and eating in the rest of the week was a given. Maybe if we were doing it all over again in today's economy we would be eating PB&J's by the fire.

[gostan]

My biggest concern is not losing people but attracting new people who don't have kids up to Sugarbush. I wish i could say that all everyone cared about was the best skiing in New England at any cost but cost and nightlife is a huge concern to the non hardcore skiers and I am having a hell of a time replacing the 10 people.

I disagree with your last point at least locally. Families eat at home and rarely go out drinking.. I have friends up there with houses who have families and they are not going out to eat or the bars.

Xskier, We all certainly wish you the best in finding new and compatible skiing souls to fill your house.

I really remain surprised at how many skiers I run into in the Boston area who have never ventured up to ski Sugarbush. Too many seem to stay within 2.5 hours of Boston by heading up 93 to NH, or get on the caravan to Sunday River. They do not know what they are missing.

Maybe some hard postings at local ski shops and internet postings at Facebook and (oh, no) Craigslist in Boston, CT & NY will help.

Being single myself, I would have to agree that there is a lack of nightlife and bars, etc. at SB, but at least I will get plenty of rest for the next day of skiing and riding. Seriously, it really does appear that additional nightlife venues are a prime necessity in order to keep a cross-section of the population coming to SB, particularly the casual skiing population.

When I was first introduced to Sugarbush in 1987-1994, we came up for weekends and school vacation weeks with another friends' family. We always opted for either a family dinner out for pizza or burgers on a Saturday evening, or fed the kids early and left them with a sitter and chinese food, while the grown-ups went out to Miguel's or The Common Man, etc. The last thing any of us wanted to do was to make dinner for 8 after working hard all week and skiing all day. Yes, it was expensive, but well worth the price of relaxation, as making meals and eating in the rest of the week was a given. Maybe if we were doing it all over again in today's economy we would be eating PB&J's by the fire.

[HowieT2]

What was the average age of the 10?
How many of the 10 were first timers ski housers at SB last year?
How many of the 10 have committed to ski houses at other mountains?
How many of the 10 are just going to opt for paying to ski, as they go?

I am not trying to grill you, but there is a reason why there are "For Sale" signs up at non-mountain located bars, establishments, motels, etc., throughout various portions of NE Ski Country, and I do not think that it has anything to do with prioritizing family skiers.

1) Average age: 40
2) A few will do other mountains and in the past many have headed to Ktown
3) A few more just want to come up once in a while as guests.

My biggest concern is not losing people but attracting new people who don't have kids up to Sugarbush. I wish i could say that all everyone cared about was the best skiing in New England at any cost but cost and nightlife is a huge concern to the non hardcore skiers and I am having a hell of a time replacing the 10 people.

I disagree with your last point at least locally. Families eat at home and rarely go out drinking.. I have friends up there with houses who have families and they are not going out to eat or the bars.[/quote]

I don't know, us married folk definitely don't go drinking as much as singles, but dinner I'm not sure there is that much of a difference. Personally, we cut back on going out the last 2 winters because of general uncertainty about the economy. Hopefully this season we will be back to going out more. But the mrv has a roster of great eating spots. The only thing lacking is a Thai, Japanese, Vietnamese place.

[skibum1321]

Being single myself, I would have to agree that there is a lack of nightlife and bars, etc. at SB, but at least I will get plenty of rest for the next day of skiing and riding. Seriously, it really does appear that additional nightlife venues are a prime necessity in order to keep a cross-section of the population coming to SB, particularly the casual skiing population.

That's the chicken and egg problem. You won't have more bars popping up without the people to go there. And you won't have the people that want that scene coming up without those bars.
Personally, I'm young (27) and married but I can count on one hand the number of times I've been out in the valley. Once I get back to the ski house I'm done for the day. I rarely even make it to the CRP just because it's so loud and crowded - not my scene. I'm perfectly content with a nice sleepy valley where we ski hard all day and then go to bed to do it again the next day.

[Xskier]

If I were still single, I'd be a fan of the new CR Pub, though losing the views of the mountain and feeling like you're in a basement is a bit of a shame. It's loud and crowded at the end of the day, which is what I want when I'm looking to mingle. The old set-up was clearly better for families, as you could sort of hang out on the periphery with your kids while still getting to enjoy the music and general vibe. I think they've tried to compensate by putting music on the Timbers patio at times, but that's a tough sell on a colder mid-winter day. Good times when it warms up though.

I agree if you were still single and 22 it would be great. At that age you dont care if its loud, crowded, dark as long as its place to drink (if you can get to the bar). Most frat parties were in basements. I head to the wunderbar most of the time when I do happy hour. Timbers is great for couples but haven't found it working for my single house mates. It is what it is...

[Jacksun]

We chose to buy a 2nd home in MRV and ski SB more or less exclusively because 1) we think it's the best skiing in the northeast; 2) because we love the MRV all year round; 3) because the drive is long enough and the location a little harder to get to such that it limits the number of "jerks" at SB (and presumably MRG). Call that last a snooty attitude - having spent a lot of years in group houses at KBasin I know what I don't like any more. I would hate to see an influx of people that fit my personal definition jerks, and I assume most of the posters on this board would not want to have the Access Road become the KB access road, or the Mountain Road in Stow.

Maybe the extremes, each having a purpose and market segment, can be defined by KB at one end for people desiring more night life, etc., and Smuggs, for people looking for a complete self-contained family-oriented experience (and we did Smuggs for several years). I think both places do their respective things well. I think SB is in between, but these days more on the Smuggs end of the scale.

That said, there's probably a place for a Wobbly Barn/Pickle Barrel/Matterhorn (are these places still operating?) venue in the MRV. I'm not sure that the Local Folk or the Slide Brook fills the niche. (Did the Warren House fill the bill years ago? I was up a coupla weekends ago and saw for sale signs there - somebody's trying to develop it into vacation properties?) Having one such nightspot would not spell disaster for the MRV and might move SB towards the middle on my loosely defined scale.

I don't mean to talk out of both sides of my mouth - I like the low key MRV vibe, but I don't think it would be ruined by a place that would be attractive to singles in their 20s and 30s.

[southvillager]

I was a 4 time seasonal renter back in the late '80s as a single guy. I am still here....but now I'm 47, I own a South Village condo, and I have 2 kids 8 and 13.

Back in the late 80s it was a lot of fun for singles. We always had a beer or two in the base lodge after skiing. There were kids everywhere, parents, grandparents, all crowded in with the boots, bags, trays, whatever. It was part of the fun. Later in the evening after supper we would go out to Mooselips (now Local Folk), right across the street was Gallaghers (Smurfs!), and the Blue Tooth (free soup) up on the Mt road. Big bars, bands, crowds...really a lot of fun to be had all over. All 3 places were busy late into the evening. It is definitely a little boring now, even for a 47 year old dad like me. Reviving that part of the Sugarbush experience would not be a negative to me in any way.