snowmaking on the mall

[mattlucas]

Since there are upgrades in the works for next season it would probably be too late to file for the permits to do this but I think it would be a huge benefit to the spring skiing experience and more at the bush.

The Mall holds snow at least as well if not better than Steins Run, has an excellent pitch and character that would not be ruined with a properly installed snowmaking system
and has no traverse at the end to get back to the lift.

Watching people rip bumps is infinitely better than staring at dirt and leaves.

In winter, the base layer that gets blown on places like FIS would make it a significant upgrade to the bump skiing crowd who want longer more consistent lines
with filled in trofts and might make it possible to groom places like Domino who could then be enjoyed more by the intermediate crowd etc when no one wants to ski icy bumps.

In general I can't stand snowmaking, but filling in trails under the liftlines makes sense to me, and with new technology it would seem like the pipes could be put down without widening the trail much if at all.

Otherwise, I just look forward to seeing what the management will do to maintain and improve the infrastructure around the mountain. I guess I fit more into the ski crowd than the luxury ammenity crowd despite the desire for pipes up the VH but I really appreciate seeing the chairs get painted, the bridges looking good over water bars and to know that the on map woods get maintained every summer more than i care about facilities in the base area, but I'm curious to see what they'll do for the ski experience for other people especially if they keep people off the chairs and in the lodge.

Have a great summer.

[ahm]

Nothing should be done to the mall. It is a natural snow trail and should remain that way period. FIS is often an icy mess, while BD skis much nicer due to the natural. The area will never add snowmaking to the mall and it shouldn't.

[mattlucas]

go hike FIS right now OR buy a cabin cat ride and tell me it's an icy mess.
It's creamy corn and worth every dollar you spend on AT gear or cabin ride to ski it once.

With thoughtful consideration and skill anything is possible, but obviously this is a "pipe dream" as the mountain has other priorities.

[summitchallenger]

Nothing should be done to the mall. It is a natural snow trail and should remain that way period. FIS is often an icy mess, while BD skis much nicer due to the natural. The area will never add snowmaking to the mall and it shouldn't.

Actually a fair amount of that snow is actually blow-over from FIS (both natural and machine made).

go hike FIS right now OR buy a cabin cat ride and tell me it's an icy mess.
It's creamy corn and worth every dollar you spend on AT gear or cabin ride to ski it once.

On Tuesday ME looked pretty thin in some areas, including FIS because relatively little snow was blown on it.

I think the overall idea of adding SM to Mall is not a bad idea. We saw this season that natural snow was relatively light and some trails could have used some help. That said, snowmaking is available on Exterminator, Lower Brambles, and Cliffs and I don't think any of those trails saw snowmaking this season.

I'd suggest putting up a spur line down to from Lower Deathspout to CR Base, across the bridge, and along the ower part of Middle Earth (where it always melts out).

But my biggest suggestion would be to add compressor capacity to LP so that they can blow more snow.

[teleo]

I'm with ahm on this one. Keep the mall natural. Although it might be nice to have the mall in the spring, I wouldn't want snowmaking on the mall the rest of the year.

I'm thinking it wouldn't make the priority list anyways, so I'm not to worried.

[Lostone]

IMNATHO, some trails just work well as natural snow trails. Snowmaking could be installed and run at great expense, but the trails ski well as natural snow trails.

Mall, Twist, Moonshine, Morning Star, Domino, Paradise, Spills, all of Castlerock are the ones that come to mind at South. North has its own compliment.

We need snowmaking. Without it, we would open later, close earlier, and have great recovery problems, after. . . unfortunate weather events. But some trails just work better with natural snow, and there are snowmaking substitutes to get around them, until they... get ripe.

[Tin Woodsman]

While it would be great to have deeper coverage on The Mall, there are practical considerations that mitigate against the benefits well beyond just quality of skiing surface. First, you've got the relatively low-hanging VH chair above. A lot of snow would end up on those chairs in the form of 6 inch thick piles of solid ice. More importantly, the Mall is relatively narrow, and not only would there be very little room to place those guns, you'd see a lot of snow blow into the woods on either side. This would widen The Mall over time, which really isn't in anyone's interest, b/c of all the trees it would kill. Just look at the status of current snowmaking runs and how they are almost all getting wider every year. You see it on Ripcord, FIS, Hot Shot/Waterfall, Jester and OG pretty easily. Within 10 seasons, you'd see the Mall being 5-10 feet wider for most of it's length. No thanks.

[mattlucas]

I honestly can't say whether Hot Shot is getting wider, the other trails you mention including FIS and Ripcord and I will throw in Lower Birdland all seem to have the guns on the downhill side of the trail so the mountain blows more up than it should to cover the terrain, resulting in snow getting hung up and over into the woods. Not only does that result in tree loss, it's also kind of annoying if you'd like to go off the trail and find yourself hung up by a not so natural hazard.

The Mall has already been widened in my lifetime, I am sure of it although perhaps it's grown in since.

I feel very strongly that Natural Snow kills Man Made every time, and I'm not even sure that the Low E guns make the best man made product around.
But it seems that every once in awhile, mountain ops does lay down a killer layer or real PP instead of the traditional EC glacial ice. I think part of this has to do with super optimal low humidity conditions or possibly by blowing snow while it's coming from the heavens. Maybe with more capacity or automation they could mix more when possible.

It seems Sugarbush's philosophy the last few years has been to create a base layer and move on unless they plan on going long haul with that trail (E.G. Spring Fling, SB, Steins) and for the most part I'm fine with that unless they need a refresher after it hasn't snowed in a month or so.

As far as the spring goes, while only Sugarbush has Steins Run (and it is a great trail, particularly when the rope first drops and on sunny days in spring) the Mall would make a better Spring venue as it is under the lift and has a better spring aspect. Steins is often not the place to be mid season though, and there is NO reason that every trail has to be treated the same way every year. For instance, I am quite serious about knocking the bumps down on Domino because I feel like that would be a great trail for advanced intermediate types to enjoy and i haven't seen it flat in a long time.

Getting back to the Mall, the snow at the top seems to last so long anyway, if there was a way to cover the bottom by dragging hoses and pointing a canon or two down the hill maybe it would make all the difference. Just something to think about so put away your pitchforks and torches and hope for some real snow before the lifts stop.

P.S.
Jester seems like skier traffic is making it thin, much like the rest of the upper mountain woods, not hoses.

Snowmaking around the bottom of LL, ME, and castlerock run IN would be totally awesome.

I'd be curious to see how much snow the mountain blew compared to years past because I have never seen so many problems at the one spot by Blue Tooth as I have this year.

[win]

The others answered as well as I could have. The Mall will stay natural. I am very comfortable where we have snowmaking capacity now and don't plan to change it. We will just continuously updgrade the existing system and locations with low energy nozzles. We as well as everyone experience breaks in a snowmaking pipe during the season. This year we did have two breaks on the piple coming up the Access Road but they were fixed within a days and had no impact on the amount of snow we made this year. While we had 100 inches of less snow than the 50 year average, we had an excellent run of snow making temperatures and we had no major thaw. Thus, the snow we made was good quality, it was made efficiently and it lasted. We did not have to remake trails as we have often had to do in past years after a heavy rain and thaw. So we actually were able to pump fewer gallons but get out snowplan for both mountains completed by early February.

[Yard Sale]

Thanks, Win. Yes keep the Mall natural and do not flatten the bumps on Domino either.

[canonizer]

The others answered as well as I could have. The Mall will stay natural. I am very comfortable where we have snowmaking capacity now and don't plan to change it. We will just continuously updgrade the existing system and locations with low energy nozzles. We as well as everyone experience breaks in a snowmaking pipe during the season. This year we did have two breaks on the piple coming up the Access Road but they were fixed within a days and had no impact on the amount of snow we made this year. While we had 100 inches of less snow than the 50 year average, we had an excellent run of snow making temperatures and we had no major thaw. Thus, the snow we made was good quality, it was made efficiently and it lasted. We did not have to remake trails as we have often had to do in past years after a heavy rain and thaw. So we actually were able to pump fewer gallons but get out snowplan for both mountains completed by early February.

Win, were the breaks indicative of systemic problems with the pipes? Word around the mountain was that we will be expecting similar problems for the years to come since the pipes may have been put in with an economical rather than a longterm view. Have you expanded snowmaking coverage since purchasing the mountain?

As far as the attrition of trees is considered, skiers take a much broader off-piste attitude than they did in decades past. Unless the mountain is going to rope off areas for reforestation proactively for years at a time, similar to MRG's approach, we can only expect further deterioration of the tree coverage. I would welcome, and have often wished to see, a long rope covering the top of ripcord for that very reason.

The mall, with very little help, skis for such a long time and better coverage at the bottom would help the trail last even longer. I don't see a creative suggestion as the root of evil. Natural snow is great...and, when it's there in abundance, no one's suggesting spraying down the hill with poor consistency man-made cover.

Why was there so much grooming on Stein's in the 70 degree weather?

[shadyjay]

I second the notion to keep The Mall au'natural.

And don't forget of those trails which do have snowmaking capabilities, but are retained in a natural snow state... Lower Birdland and I think Exterminator didn't see the guns this year. I don't think I've EVER seen snowmaking actually being done on Lower Birdland.

Domino, on the other hand... if she was flatter, she'd make a good alternative to Downspout.

[HowieT2]

is the upper part of Domino easily groomable? It never gets groomed.

[shadyjay]

is the upper part of Domino easily groomable? It never gets groomed.

Seeing as how it used to be a blue square on 1990s-era trail maps, I'm assuming it must've been groomed with some regularity. It must be easier to groom, then say Stein's, FIS, Ripcord, 'Grinder, and such. It's not super wide, and not terribly steep.

I like the lower half presently more than the upper... that part wouldn't necessarily need grooming, since most traffic would take that left onto HG Traverse, still giving some au'natural fun to the intermediate folk outside of Moonshine, on that side of the mtn.

[win]

The Pipe that ASC put in is getting old and it was not the best quality to start with, so it will have to be replaced in the near future. The greatest vulnerability is where the pressure in the greatest- basically from Terra Rosa up to the Sugarbush Inn. This is a major Capex expenditure as you can imagine, so we are looking at the best time to undertake it. It also has to e carefully coordinated with the Town.

There was not "alot of Grooming of Stein's in 70 degree weather." We groomed it once to set it up for the rest of the Spring. The trail was filled that morning with skies having a blast and by early afternoon it had wonderful soft moguls again. If the snow had allowed, I would have groomed it one more time, but it was been too wet and soft.