Ski school ?

[gone.skiing]

I will split my reply into a couple of posts to separate stoke from issues a little bit....

I am probably a relative newbie at the Bush compared to some people on this board. When my son was old enough to join a seasonal program, there was only one place we wanted to ski: Sugarbush. The reason? John Egan and his crew of instructors and random ski bums, their teaching and skiing philosophy. Later we came to appreciate Win's hands on approach and his presence on the mountain. It still blows my socks off that I see the owner just about every day managing lift lines, running snow removal equipment to restore power or just ripping it up through icy bumps on Steins.

However, for me it all started with ski school philosophy. I was and still am very impressed by what adventure blazer coaches are doing to make our kids better skiers and better individuals for that matter. Team work, respect for others in the group, keeping track of each other in the woods, staying safe (warm, dry, fed) whatever that means is a huge part of the process. It is not just about skiing as far as I am concerned. We had one season with blazers and two with adventure blazers, 4 different coaches and without exception they were truly "exceptional".

In 3 shorts seasons my son went from

barely surviving powder



to air turns



to really enjoying Castlerock



to shredding in Jackson Hole





to skiing in Castlerock Challenge (photo credit John Atkinson)



I can't say enough how much I appreciate the work that coaches put in on and off the clock to bring skiing to our kids. VT north crew that takes time to slow down and show something as we are skiing along, 3:55 chair with John Egan who always shows up for one last run just as you are ready to call it. Somehow kids always find one extra gear when those guys are around. We could not find that at other mountains and I hope it continues.

This past season, my son got fast and strong enough to the point where he can match adults run for run pretty much. There is not a better feeling than to share a powder day such as this one with your kid...



/end of soap box transmission

[gone.skiing]

To get back to the topic:

Brew Ski,
with all dew respect asking everyone to remain calm and saying that everything is cool is not productive. Bush pilots thing is far from set in stone AFAIK. In my phone conversation with Bill there was "nothing new for Bush pilots this year". Without exception every parent that posted in this thread and many more that are not members on this board have the same impression about kids curriculum. Terrain selection was severely impacted by new policies (management) this past season. It is not a speculation, it is an observable fact. I would pick up my kid at the end of a powder day and find out that they never made it to CR or HG. Forget the woods, they never rode those chairs. This happened on multiple occasions.

Hawk,
we are not speculating. These are not rumors. Things changed last year and everyone felt the impact. Parents did not get notified of changes in the policy after they paid money and assumed that things would be at the same level as prior season. A number of people myself included are considering whether to spend money on the program this year.

Treebandit.
there are two major categories: Blazers and Adventure Blazers. Within those kids are separated by levels. For the purposes of this discussion we are talking about kids who are ready for the challenge. By the way if your kid's group skied Slidebrook that is technically OB.

Just as I thought everyone seems to be focusing on the two coaches issue, etc. I do not think that anyone is arguing that we need to take responsible approach. Enough coaches, right training, right equipment... The question is will Sugarbush make it possible for kids to enjoy all kinds of terrain or just make it impossible for coaches to go there? Lets assume that everyone is being a professional about it and focus on larger issue.

I find the comment above about kids being safer with parent in advanced terrain rather curious. Are you trained in CPR and OEC? Do you spend 100+ days on the mountain and know those runs by heart? Are you qualified to coach your kid through tricky sections? Do you have information from other groups about snow conditions in particular area? Have you spent last 10+ years coaching kids, watching them develop, evaluating their ability and skiing with them in all conditions? If you can answer yes to at least some of these, my hat goes off to you. If not, your kid is much safer with JA, Doug, Diggity, Watie, Julia, JE, etc... What does throwing one off the cliff have to do with anything? I can't even figure out what that is supposed to mean... Although I did hear stories about John Egan jumping off GH chair onto Waterfall to go get help for severely injured skier.

In terms of safety conditions are often much better in the woods then they are on the trails. My scariest moment on skis at Sugarbush was two years ago on frozen rock solid Ripcord. That was both scary and educational. At the same time trees skied just fine. A friend of mine got taken out on a groomer at Vail and ended up in the hospital with broken back. Every day coaches make the call where to ski and I rely on them to figure out where best conditions are. As a matter of fact, I join kids group if their plan is better than mine.

I have skied with John Egan on a few occasions all over US and was never able to figure out how coaches know what every student is capable of. I am guessing it is called experience. They would never take kids or adults for that matter into unsafe situation. I firmly believe that and that is why I sign that release each year for Adventure Blazers.

If we want to talk about rumors, I also heard that entire Castlerock chair could become off limits for (regular/adventure?) blazers. I am hoping that is not the case, but would not consider it out of realm of possibility. How are the kids supposed to ski in Castlerock Challenge in spring if they can't train on Lift Line? Majority of the kids in adventure blazers groups will ski over rock/grass/trees/small animals, before they ski a groomer. They are there to ski powder, jump of things, ski tightest tree line and brag to the parents about it. This is what adventure blazers system provides. It is unique to Sugarbush/MRG/Stowe/Jay and this is what sets it apart from our neighbors down $outh. We are signing up kids into big mountain/off piste/all terrain program. Castlerock/HG/Slidebrook/trees are all huge part of it. This brings me to the fact that a few times last year I did not drop my son off for Blazers because I wanted him to ski some of the runs that he did not get a chance to hit all season. It is a bummer to be in a position to have to make that choice.

Lastly let's be honest, kids live for woods runs, especially for glamorous ones. There are only so many time a 10 year old will get excited about skiing deeper sleeper and eden. If we want to keep their attention we need better carrots. I can get two weeks worth of chores out of my son with a single promise to ski Bear Claw. Church used to be project for older groups, they would watch conditions and try to catch it when it is right. It is a highlight of their season. That to me is all part of their education, know when conditions are right, who to go with and how to do it safely.

I am hoping that news about Adventure blazers will be more along the line of addition of features not introduction or additional barriers. Perfect example is that adventure coaches got terrain park training last year. This was a great and very welcome addition to the usual repertoire.

Phew... sorry about the long winded post...

[Hawk]

GS, you are very passionate about this. I have to admit that I have no kids and have never taken part in any programs although Brewski, Notorious and 007 keep asking. This would be the first I have heard about the toning down of the kids programs. Personally I think it's a bad idea to modify a program that was working and brining joy to so many people. I have witnessed firsthand the kids buzzing around the hill in and out of the woods and thought "Wow.. I wish I did that when I was young". Anyway your last two posts were good. I hope somebody is listening. Good Luck.

[notorious]

Gone.skiing, thank you for the thoughtful analysis. There is a lot said there. Before adding any of my thoughts, I have one question, ...Just what was it that Bill meant regarding "nothing new for Bush Pilots this year"? As you know, and as Win announced publicly at Community Day and confirmed to Brewski in a separate conversation reported in the contribution above, the BP program will this year include optional backcountry trips to other locations (Mt Washington, (specifically mentioned) Bolton, Stowe, Jay etc). Is Bill contradicting this, or am I needlessly alarmed? As you well know, customers want this, enrolled based on it, and are buying AT equipment to enable their participation. It has been advertised for 3 years. It's about time it became reality.

Before I get worked up, I'd like your interpretation of Bill's remark.

Excellent contribution, BTW. The pictures say it all.

[gone.skiing]

I have never taken part in any programs although Brewski, Notorious and 007 keep asking.

Hawk, let's go... This is the year as they like to say in Boston on any number of occasions.

notorious,
Interpret it as you may...
Two days before early sign up deadline (same time I talked to you) I called ski school to ask about bush pilots. I was looking for clarification about some petty stuff (race pass, early morning Sunday training, 15% discount for people with kids, could have sworn they had it first year) and in general for information that would convince me to drop $900 for the program. Lady at the desk could not answer questions, but she did track down and called me back when Bill was available. He got on the phone, gave me three yes/no answers for simple questions. His answer to my general question: "Is there anything new about the program that I should know?", was "No, nothing really new".

[WWF-VT]

My son participates in the Adventure Blazers program. He has had great coaching and skied just about everything on the mountain. My expectation is that Sugarbush will continue the "Adventure" part of the program - it is called "Egan's Adventure Blazers". I do know that last year the Ski School had a list of four Off-Piste Zones that had increasing levels of requirements that had to be met to allow a coach/coaches to take their groups off the map. The requirements make sense – carrying a pack with safety gear, radio/cell, second coach, checking in/out with dispatch/patrol. Zone 4 also required that you were with an Outback guide, Outback-certified coach, Bush Pilot Coach or John Egan.

[HowieT2]

To get back to the topic:

Brew Ski,
with all dew respect asking everyone to remain calm and saying that everything is cool is not productive. Bush pilots thing is far from set in stone AFAIK. In my phone conversation with Bill there was "nothing new for Bush pilots this year". Without exception every parent that posted in this thread and many more that are not members on this board have the same impression about kids curriculum. Terrain selection was severely impacted by new policies (management) this past season. It is not a speculation, it is an observable fact. I would pick up my kid at the end of a powder day and find out that they never made it to CR or HG. Forget the woods, they never rode those chairs. This happened on multiple occasions.

Hawk,
we are not speculating. These are not rumors. Things changed last year and everyone felt the impact. Parents did not get notified of changes in the policy after they paid money and assumed that things would be at the same level as prior season. A number of people myself included are considering whether to spend money on the program this year.

Treebandit.
there are two major categories: Blazers and Adventure Blazers. Within those kids are separated by levels. For the purposes of this discussion we are talking about kids who are ready for the challenge. By the way if your kid's group skied Slidebrook that is technically OB.

Just as I thought everyone seems to be focusing on the two coaches issue, etc. I do not think that anyone is arguing that we need to take responsible approach. Enough coaches, right training, right equipment... The question is will Sugarbush make it possible for kids to enjoy all kinds of terrain or just make it impossible for coaches to go there? Lets assume that everyone is being a professional about it and focus on larger issue.

I find the comment above about kids being safer with parent in advanced terrain rather curious. Are you trained in CPR and OEC? Do you spend 100+ days on the mountain and know those runs by heart? Are you qualified to coach your kid through tricky sections? Do you have information from other groups about snow conditions in particular area? Have you spent last 10+ years coaching kids, watching them develop, evaluating their ability and skiing with them in all conditions? If you can answer yes to at least some of these, my hat goes off to you. If not, your kid is much safer with JA, Doug, Diggity, Watie, Julia, JE, etc... What does throwing one off the cliff have to do with anything? I can't even figure out what that is supposed to mean... Although I did hear stories about John Egan jumping off GH chair onto Waterfall to go get help for severely injured skier.

In terms of safety conditions are often much better in the woods then they are on the trails. My scariest moment on skis at Sugarbush was two years ago on frozen rock solid Ripcord. That was both scary and educational. At the same time trees skied just fine. A friend of mine got taken out on a groomer at Vail and ended up in the hospital with broken back. Every day coaches make the call where to ski and I rely on them to figure out where best conditions are. As a matter of fact, I join kids group if their plan is better than mine.

I have skied with John Egan on a few occasions all over US and was never able to figure out how coaches know what every student is capable of. I am guessing it is called experience. They would never take kids or adults for that matter into unsafe situation. I firmly believe that and that is why I sign that release each year for Adventure Blazers.

If we want to talk about rumors, I also heard that entire Castlerock chair could become off limits for (regular/adventure?) blazers. I am hoping that is not the case, but would not consider it out of realm of possibility. How are the kids supposed to ski in Castlerock Challenge in spring if they can't train on Lift Line? Majority of the kids in adventure blazers groups will ski over rock/grass/trees/small animals, before they ski a groomer. They are there to ski powder, jump of things, ski tightest tree line and brag to the parents about it. This is what adventure blazers system provides. It is unique to Sugarbush/MRG/Stowe/Jay and this is what sets it apart from our neighbors down $outh. We are signing up kids into big mountain/off piste/all terrain program. Castlerock/HG/Slidebrook/trees are all huge part of it. This brings me to the fact that a few times last year I did not drop my son off for Blazers because I wanted him to ski some of the runs that he did not get a chance to hit all season. It is a bummer to be in a position to have to make that choice.

Lastly let's be honest, kids live for woods runs, especially for glamorous ones. There are only so many time a 10 year old will get excited about skiing deeper sleeper and eden. If we want to keep their attention we need better carrots. I can get two weeks worth of chores out of my son with a single promise to ski Bear Claw. Church used to be project for older groups, they would watch conditions and try to catch it when it is right. It is a highlight of their season. That to me is all part of their education, know when conditions are right, who to go with and how to do it safely.

I am hoping that news about Adventure blazers will be more along the line of addition of features not introduction or additional barriers. Perfect example is that adventure coaches got terrain park training last year. This was a great and very welcome addition to the usual repertoire.

Phew... sorry about the long winded post...

Thanks for the perspective.
Last season was my daughter's second in Blazers. It wasn't nearly as good as the first, and I expressed this to both Win and John. But I thought that this was an issue particular to her group and her instructor. It was my son's first year in adventure blazers and he was happy, but he's always happy, especially when skiing. Not having been involved in prior years to compare his experience, I thought the program was the same but dependent on weather, conditions, etc. Evidently that is not the case.

This is not an issue that only effects participation in blazers. It goes well beyond that. Towards the end of last season, my daughter who was 8, did not want to ski with her blazer group. They weren't doing anything fun or challenging. Clearly, if she's bored with blazers, it's not worth spending 1000 bucks on. But more significantly, if she's not psyched to hit the mountain every weekend, I'm going to have hard time getting her in the car for the 4.5 hour drive every friday. Once that starts happening, it's not just two kids you lose from blazers, but two season pass sales for my wife and I, and all that goes with a family being at the mountain 40+ days a year (until they're off to college that is). It is a significant sacrifice for a family to come to SB every weekend.

Blazers is about the kids having fun more than learning the how to ski. The kids in the program already know how to ski.

As indicated in my previous post, I understand that the program must be supervised in a responsible manner. As a trial lawyer I am particularly familiar with liability concerns. If this is what's is driving the unwelcome changes, there are additional steps SB could take to better insulate itself, but that's not something to talk about in an open forum.

I hope the powers that be understand how important the free spirit of the blazer program is to the momentum SB has gathered over the past years. New lodges, condos, lifts, snowmaking, etc. aren't going to mean much if you don't have families who want to be better here.

[Jacksun]

First, I need to clarify my much earlier post re number of coaches: my understanding was that in addition to two groups combining when going into the woods, which therefore would have two coaches by definition, a third coach/instructor was the additional requirement. The problem as identified by my daughters last year was that while there was willingness to do woods, there was not often the availability of a third coach who just happened to be doing nothing at that time. So the outcome was far less tree skiing than the year before.

I echo the Howie's last comments: my kids were both unhappy with their Blazer experience last year. They were disappointed about the reduced tree skiing, they too went to CR far less than the year before and my older one especially got stuck doing terrain park stuff far more than she cared to, missing out on skiing CR and trees on some of the really good snow days. My younger one did a lot of what I'd call ski school stuff (drills, follow the instructor, etc.) instead of just skiing, and did not ski as many challenging runs as she did the previous year. It was more like Blazers than Adventure Blazers.

Again, I understand and agree with all those who have posted about the need for increased safety and we did sign them up again for this year, but we are hoping that the coaching team can figure out a way to bring the magic back!

[vonski]

Although, I do not have any children ready for Blazers at this time as my son who is 11 and in six grade has moved onto skiing with me or his friends at Ellen. I have been curious as to the new approach. As I said earlier in a post two years ago, my sons group would ski Bear claw, woods on Castlerock and other unmarked woods. I used to tag along sometimes as I was skiing alone and at least I was near a group then. It seemed to me that the groups would stay together on the beaten path when in the woods as I would venture off the beaten path to bushwack. On the upper mountain two groups would get together to venture into such places. The marked woods as I recall were free game with only the single instructor. There were days where the group had to hit some woods on every run. as it was a powder woods day.

I went and read the descriptions of the different programs and found that Adventure and Mountaineering Blazers by description will still be hitting up all of the mountain. The Blazer program states wooded terrain, but nothing about the whole mountain. If this is the case, the 70 new acres should allow for some good wood skiing still for the Blazer groups, but if only allowed into the marked woods then it is far from what I remember.

I rode the chair lift with Egan after one such upper mountain run ( that I did not know existed) with the regular blazer group my son was in and we were both thinking about how great this would have been if this all existed when we were 10.

[Brew Ski]

Hey GS,
Really great post. Thoughtful consideration and explanation of your experience and concerns. I think it is very helpful that you contributed these ideas to the forum.

I was quoting a line from the movie "Animal House" uttered by Kevin Bacon when things were clearly not "all is well", especially for his character. Sorry you missed the reference.

As I mentioned, The President and CEO of Sugarbush, Win Smith announced in public at Community Day, that there were new adventures for many of the programs including the Bush Pilots. In particular he confirmed that plans are in progress for some off site adventures for the Bush Pilots. When asked directly in person if these changes were in fact true, not just speculation he confirmed. He was even asked to join the Bush Pilots for some sessions since we have such a great day, every day. I will put faith in the fact that Win is a man of his word, and that he is trying to make Sugarbush an extraordinary mountain. With John Egan and John Atkinsson involved, the adventure programs have great potential. To that point there were at least 6 Bush Pilots competing in the Castlerock Extreme this past season. This program works!

I signed up for Bush Pilots with this information. I'm currently pricing out AT gear in anticipation of learning new mountain skills and getting to some new terrain. I will be thoroughly disappointed, if I have bought a season pass, bought Bush Pilot Membership and new program specific gear to find out I have to spend the Season on trails and in bounds. I have friends who ski at Stowe at the level of Bush Pilots, and can easily go there instead of Sugarbush next year if the Mountain lets the program deteriorate to the same old stuff at other mountains.

The customers (Season pass holders) are asking for more adventure and to make better use of all that the region has to offer outdoor enthusiasts. Win is a successful and smart business man, he isn't going to let this opportunity slip by. The adventures and off sites are probably the best marketing the mountain can get IMHO. Skiers talking up the mountain and the adventures. When my Stowe friend (for example) hears about the Bush Pilots hitting "hidden" trails at Stowe like Pipeline, waterfall, and the back woods to Smuggs, he'll go nuts that we were ripping in his back yard. He'll start asking about coming to ski with us. Or meeting up with us at another off site. That is the moment these programs take off! But they must start somewhere, and this is the year to do it! Sign up and bring Hawk! I need some competition in the bumps!

Your son is doing great. He'll probably be out-skiing me this year. Can you not get his skis tuned all season so I can keep up, keep up, keep up!

[Lostone]

Not getting much involved with the ski school stuff, as I don't have a lot of knowledge. But reading the Bush Pilots stuff, I was thinking I'd read something on it, somewhere.

Turns out it was here!

[vonski]

I echo the Howie's last comments: my kids were both unhappy with their Blazer experience last year. They were disappointed about the reduced tree skiing, they too went to CR far less than the year before and my older one especially got stuck doing terrain park stuff far more than she cared to, missing out on skiing CR and trees on some of the really good snow days. My younger one did a lot of what I'd call ski school stuff (drills, follow the instructor, etc.) instead of just skiing, and did not ski as many challenging runs as she did the previous year. It was more like Blazers than Adventure Blazers.

I am not sure why I might think this, but If I wanted my son to be a great technical skier and stay on trails then I thought that is what GMVS was for. Skiing at Ellen I see those groups a lot and it is from what I have seen more follow the leader and emphasis on technique. I am of the mantra of ski it with or without grace and have fun doing so. I know if my son had been in a group where he had to follow the leader those two years there is no way he was going to want to do Blazers. He did learn to ski well and have fun in the Blazer program that is for sure. Like I said he can go anywhere at this point and that is because of the knowledge he gained from Blazers.

[007]

What are all these RUMORS of program restriction? The only restriction should be "conditions". The coaches check in with Patrol for enlightenment, observations, and “conditions” prior to taking anyone into the lift-served side-country, and yes sometimes it isn't advisable, and sometimes it’s downright dangerous and off limits.

Considering the on and off-piste "woods" could only be open maybe 10? weekends out of the ALC Program Dates, and out of those 10 maybe 2-3? might be a little less than safe for sanctioned program skiing and riding in there. So what are you left with; 7 Saturdays and Sundays of fresh Champlain Powder? One could only wish the weather timing was that good..............

Yeah, all the ALC coaches, team members, and maybe even Win, wish the ALC programs were off-piste for the ALC program duration from beginning to end, for a host of reasons all good, but old man winter and mother nature have their fights, we're "forced" to ski on the "trails"........, and everyone ends up getting their collective panties in a bunch claiming that there were too many "restrictions" . It's called good judgment on the ski area's part for ensuring everyone’s safety, including the safety of the patrollers sent out to rescue the misfortunate among us.... Yeah you, the passholder skiing alone and far from any help at 4:00 pm on a Saturday afternoon on a "secret stash" called "dumb ass" just south of "wtf are you doing out there alone", and all the while you are thinking "I got a cell phone, and know where I'm goin'...”.

ALC “is what it is”, the finest adventure ski program this side of the Mississippi. Quit b*tchin about rumored "restrictions", the weather we haven’t yet learned to control, the PSIA coaches bickering with the ALC mentors, the dispelled rumors, and just enjoy the ride that many people would trade places for in a crack induced New York second, if they knew about it. BPs off-site excursions will hold true to Sugarbush's ALC Program breaking through old barriers, and blazing new trails in uncharted territory this season, as was promised.

Ok 'nuf said, I am going back to dream-in of ski-in at Sugarbush with all of you as soon as possible, on and OFF the trails! And would someone PUL-EEZE post a few more photos like GoneSkiing has. Those were a GREAT example of the program’s success.

[gone.skiing]

007, I got your Champlain powder right here...



Seriously man, pass the pipe or coolaid bottle... I want some of that...

Please don't throw the old "quit your bitching and go skiing" line at me, I am already doing that. When you have a number of parents who observed the same difference between last couple of seasons, you can't just brush it off.

Both seasons I was with Bush Pilots, we talked about doing these off-sites. It has not happened yet, maybe it will this year. Last year Bush Pilots had their free cat skiing day on last day of the season, when everything was frozen solid. Meanwhile, cat was going up with 1/2 dozen empty seats on best day of the season.

I guess my point is that if we all put rosy goggles on and wait for someone else to make things happen, they just might not...

[007]

007, I got your Champlain powder right here...

Niiiiiiiiiice... That person in front of you really rips! Seen glimpses of him flying past once in a while. : )
I'll share my cocktail - "Iced Russian" (shaken not stirred); rosy or foggy goggles not required...
How many more days of this madness until we open???