Expanded woods and new glades?

[HowieT2]

Win, what is the upside of adding so many bands so fast in a single year? Is SB the new Lollapalooza?

It seems like it would be tough to cut new lines to the standard that intermediates expect something like Eden or Gatehouse woods to ski.
I can't complain if my stashes get eaten because it technically isn't my mountain (or any of ours, no matter what we think), but I can't figure out what the marketing benefit is at X +15 instead of X +5. Hope you guys did your homework, and that some of these are just more beginner type areas like Walt's, because I think the thrill of discovery of a new unmarked glade on your own is worth ten times even the cost of losing a private stash.

Time will definitely tell, this is a bold move.

Why do you think the new woods trails will be cut "to the standard that intermediates expect"??? there are existing on map woods that aren't.
But I agree with your point about giving too much all at once.

[win]

Skiladi is not correct. It has never been sanctioned boundary to boundary. One-half of the land we ski on is leased from the National Forest under a special use permit. All the land we ski on is under the jurisdiction of ACT 250. The USFS does not want skiing everywhere on their mountain. They will permit us to have authorized bands of wooded areas that we thin under a foresting plan and can thus show on the trail map for all to see and use. We had our first bands approved a few years ago and added some more three years ago, as I remember. We have been working with the USFS since doing a number of habitat studies to get our landlord comfortable with more sanctioned tree skiing in certain areas. Once we have their approval we next need an Act 250 permit. Assuming we get approval from both, we plan to expand this year for very simple reason. We can and our guests want more marked wooded areas. Not all are as knowledgeable as the bloggers on SKIMRV, so having marked areas is important to them. The areas we will be thinning will add both more beginner/intermediate terrain as well as added to some more challenging terrain. Notice I said thinning, so imagine what Deeper Sleeper, Eden's Woods, Exterminator Woods, etc are like. All in all the new sections marked on the map will add approximately 70 more acres of wooded skiing and riding. Not a lot given the 4,000 total acres at LP, Slidebrook and ME. While most of ME is not USFS with the exception of the higher elevations, we are still subject to Act 250 before we can do anything.

To summarize. Assuming we have USFS approval and Act 250 permits we will begin thinning these new areas and hope to have most if not all ready to this coming season.

[vonski]

Win, How are the new areas going to be named?

[Strat]

One would assume creative plays on the trails they are between (like Deeper Sleeper) or tributes to important Sugarbush figures (Sigi's Stash, Sandy's Woods, Atkinson's Alley...)

[Tin Woodsman]

The areas we will be thinning will add both more beginner/intermediate terrain as well as added to some more challenging terrain.

Only so many places for this sort of terrain at LP. Prepare for the end of powder turns in some nice, low-angle woods.

[Hawk]

The areas we will be thinning will add both more beginner/intermediate terrain as well as added to some more challenging terrain.

Only so many places for this sort of terrain at LP. Prepare for the end of powder turns in some nice, low-angle woods.

I agree with Tin to some extent but I also totally understand where Win is coming from. The avid Tree Nut like some of us on the board and many of the long time skiers, dare I say it, are the minority. I can imagine that the majority of people that talk to Win about this subject constantly lobby for more tree runs. This also will attract people from other locations like Jay and Stowe looking for new adventure. I am sure the press will do wonders for new skier visits.

The down side is that it will certainly do two things. One, open up and officially acknowledge areas that were previously not as traveled. Two, put more people, skilled and not so skilled in the woods. The result is that untracked will become more of a premium. My reaction will be to head for my favorite locations first thing on a powder day instead of skiing the untracked trails first. Then I will hit the very obscure later in the day.

This is very good for the mountain but I can't help being a little selfish. After all the reason I came here and abandoned all my friends at Sunday River years ago was the endless untracked. It was mind boggling how much there was that no one skied. Now with the new direction the mountain has taken over the last few years the commodity has certainly shrank. This is just my perspective which is shared by all that I ski with.

As for naming the trails, I would think that some consideration for the "original" names would be the way to go. They have become part of the Sugarbush culture and have some serious history.

Things are a changin boy and girls.......

[vonski]

Mt. Ellen will be the place to be on POW days. Still less crowded and no matter how much is marked there still will be fresh. Maybe we can get ahold of the map printers and pay them to cut the map in half before shipping it.. LOLOLOL!!!
Also no matter what there are many out there that simply have no desire to ski in the woods. Shhhh!!! cause they don't know what they are missing. I think my new comment on the chair lift might be WOODS SUCK!!! Stay on the trails. This white stuff all over me is from a snowball fight.

[skiladi]

Skiladi is not correct. It has never been sanctioned boundary to boundary. One-half of the land we ski on is leased from the National Forest under a special use permit. All the land we ski on is under the jurisdiction of ACT 250. The USFS does not want skiing everywhere on their mountain. They will permit us to have authorized bands of wooded areas that we thin under a foresting plan and can thus show on the trail map for all to see and use. We had our first bands approved a few years ago and added some more three years ago, as I remember. We have been working with the USFS since doing a number of habitat studies to get our landlord comfortable with more sanctioned tree skiing in certain areas. Once we have their approval we next need an Act 250 permit. Assuming we get approval from both, we plan to expand this year for very simple reason. We can and our guests want more marked wooded areas. Not all are as knowledgeable as the bloggers on SKIMRV, so having marked areas is important to them. The areas we will be thinning will add both more beginner/intermediate terrain as well as added to some more challenging terrain. Notice I said thinning, so imagine what Deeper Sleeper, Eden's Woods, Exterminator Woods, etc are like. All in all the new sections marked on the map will add approximately 70 more acres of wooded skiing and riding. Not a lot given the 4,000 total acres at LP, Slidebrook and ME. While most of ME is not USFS with the exception of the higher elevations, we are still subject to Act 250 before we can do anything.

To summarize. Assuming we have USFS approval and Act 250 permits we will begin thinning these new areas and hope to have most if not all ready to this coming season.

Sometimes being wrong helps to get more information out there. Suddenly I feel like going Salmon fishing. Thanks for the clarification,Win.

[HowieT2]

The areas we will be thinning will add both more beginner/intermediate terrain as well as added to some more challenging terrain.

Only so many places for this sort of terrain at LP. Prepare for the end of powder turns in some nice, low-angle woods.

Sucks to have to share such a precious commodity, but I think we would all concede that the mtn/area needs to increase skier visits. There may come a point in the future when capacity is reached (See, Kmart) but it's not there yet. I was lamenting the same thing at Yankee stadium the other day. Back in the late 80's early 90's when the team stunk, you could walk up 5 minutes before the game and get great seats for 'nothing. No lines for food, no crowds etc. Gotta take the good with the bad.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love for SB to be a private mtn a la Yellowstone just for the diehard faithful, but it ain't happening and it wouldn't be right.
At any rate, early bird catches the worm.

[mattlucas]

The areas we will be thinning will add both more beginner/intermediate terrain as well as added to some more challenging terrain. Notice I said thinning, so imagine what Deeper Sleeper, Eden's Woods, Exterminator Woods, etc are like.

My problem isn't about sharing stashes, Deeper sleeper and Eden's ski like wide open trails to me. I'm not boasting, it just isn't tree skiing. It's more akin to the original idea of gladed skiing like in The Glades and Sleeper from decades ago. Look at any photograph from that time and it is difficult to figure out where the trail is at all, and now it's quite obvious. And Paradise has what, 7 trees left on it?

When edges and traffic and weather thin out the younger supporting trees, there isn't going to be anything left in the future unless protective measures are put in place to close sections to traffic in the near future.

Obviously, this is being done with USFS consent in 2009 and not 1959, so I'm sure everyone there and at SB has a better idea of what sustainability is,
but I would want the mountain to tout it's conservation efforts and not just 15 NEW TREE TRAILS. I think there is a subjective difference, and broadcasting "new terrain" when it was always there and skiable doesn't teach anyone about the forest and helps to create situations like what happened at Jay (only a slight stretch).

[win]

Matt, excellent point. I guess we should speak more about our environmental concern and that we do a lot of things. I am going to have a section on the web speak more about what we do. Part of the thinking of the Forest Service is their agreeing with us that some thinning of the forest in certain areas that can then be skied is good forest management.

As far as the trail names, I will decide with the input of some of my teammates like Egan, Hammond etc who know the mountain and the history well. I suspect we will use some of the "traditional" names as well as some like XXXX Woods.

[Go Figure]

It was quite amusing to watch, between storms last winter, the clowns skiing Eden, Egans and others to the dirt and leaves, while skiing snow covered trails. Anytime maps are marked, the zone will get hammered into oblivion. At some point more people who love the current "vibe"will leave, not to be replced by new {begging for on map direction} skiers. The overall "vibe in the valley has changed {not for the better} over the last 30 years and the nitch as a "core" mountain with nothing to do after skiing mountain is what it is and should be taken into account when change is made.

The bottom line is when the list of off season improvements for Vermont ski areas debuts, you need to show something was added.

I'll second the "fluffy" snow desire, no matter what anyone tries to say the new guns BLOW, as in crappy wet snow. Please stop killing off the trailside trees with ice from the guns.
On another note We got back from Utah last week and although still wet in places the golf course is playing well.

[win]

What?

[groomer]

What?

I'm trying to figure out what he's talking about also. I started making snow in 1984, back then the idea was to keep all the snow you made ON THE TRAIL, not in the woods, so you made the snow wet enough to stay on the trail. That was efficiency back in the day. Nowadays, you see a good portion of the snow from the guns flying up in the air, this is because the snow is made so dry you can pretty much ski on it immediately! 13 years ago we would let a pile of snow "Drain out" for a day or two before we would push it around with the groomers. Now, for the most part, you can usually push MOST of a pile out 4-6 hours after it is blown without too much of a problem. Although trees do get iced up now and then, and mishaps do happen (We're dealing with mother nature, machines break, and snowmakers are human!) the snow produced today is Head over heals a much finer product than 25 years ago!

[othripper]

There was a warning for the act 250 permit in this weeks paper. If you go to this link:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/site/cfm/...l.cfm?ID=24811

and scroll to the bottom, you can download a pdf file of the proposed glades. Looks like the mountain has picked some great terrain to open, but more importantly, my favorite lines aren't there!

Let's hope there is enough snow this winter to really ski the woods, unlike last year.

Mike