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  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester
    If its okay to ride the trail wet. Then why do alot of places close the trails during wet periods? I've been told Waterbury closes when wet? Does this mean that it is okay to ride in late November and early spring? Whether state, fed or private land Its about respect for nature. The group that i ride with down south stay off the trails when wet just out of respect for the land.

    The youtube vid shows standing water on many parts of the trail.



    It's good to know that my friends and i don't need to check on trail conditions when we come up to ride in the MRV. Wet or dry ride them.
    Jester, Looks like the "official" VMBA/IMBA word is ride it wet or dry in the MRV. Tell Your local riders they can get a map and directions at the local shop.
    Waterbury has done about 400 hours of work on the upper trails in the last few years and still close them for several days after rain.

  2. #17
    With all the water in the vid the trails in the mrv must not be built right? I also thought that when you ride during wet conditions you are supposed to pedal thru the water not around it. To protect the veg? Maybe the people in waterbury can teach the people in the mrv how to build trails that drain and teach them to pedal thru. So you don't widen them. The mrv vally trails are wide enough/ I can't believe that someone would promote riding on the veg for traction. But the one guy couldn't even stay on his bike so he needed to destroy the veg to stay on the bike. COOL! The traills are so wide in the mrv anyway. I bet that most of the private land owners have a stake in Sugarbush???

  3. #18
    Hawk's Avatar
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    The guy in the video was not from around here. He didn't even know what sap lines were. He was probably from out west and doesn't understand riding in water and what all that green stuff was on the edges of the trails.

    All kidding aside, I for one do not like riding in the mud so I didn't ride the lower valley trails this weekend. Riding at the mountain wasn't bad at all. But I wouldn't say that the "locals" do not ride the trails when they are wet. As a matter of fact I saw a few (no names) long time MRV and Waterbury regulars out on Saturday totally covered in mud. It looked like they rode Clinic or maybe Denyland and were headed back towards bike shop.

    So I would say that the blame is on everybody and not just the mountain. Why single them out for one event when the problem is wide spread. The long and the short of it is if you really want to stop the damage then stop the riding all together. Otherwise every time you ride you impact the trails. Dry or wet. I am sure that every rider including all of you has done some riding in wet or semi-wet conditions. That would make you guys’ hypocrites to some extent. Right?

    Look... I'm not advocating closure just pointing out that there is a lot of work and education that needs to be done. I love the mountain that I ski at and do not want to see future plans ruined because someone has an ax to grind. Maybe they made a mistake and will learn for next time. Reporting them to the USFS only creates a big issue for all future projects summer and winter.

    That is all.....
    Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
    Got two good eyes but we still don’t see!

  4. #19
    Has IMBA (or whatever the sanctioning organization is) ever canceled a race to protect wet trails?
    I doubt it. These races are planned well in advance and take a significant amount of work to pull off. I don't see how they could cancel a race simply because the trails are wet.
    As for an alternate route, wouldn't that route also be wet and therefore verboten?

    As for me, I do my part to stay off wet trails (most of the time) for purely selfish reasons. I've had enough of falling on my a**.

    Hawk-good point about tattling to the USFS.

  5. #20
    Many sections of trail in the network need more work to be built properly, but the vast majority of people would rather ride than work, so things take longer to get done. And a LOT of locals have ridden right through all this rain. Cyclone has more mudpits than ever, despite official early season closures, and very few riders seem able or willing to stop and armor the trail.

    The state asks VMBA to close trails when it rains, but once we've got them armored and draining properly, there will be little reason to continue closing them. You may also notice that the GMC does not regularly close trails due to rain, nor do they automatically cancel group hikes because of water.

    A mud pit isn't necessarily pretty, but it isn't eroding either. Trail widening and riding over vegetation are long-term issues on the Mad River Riders network, which we've strived to limit through proper maintenance and building techniques. Xterra didn't make the start of Sugar Run any wider than the local riders and hikers have made it for the last twenty plus years. However, we went and did drainage yesterday that will hopefully allow for a single track to redevelop.

    Speaking of Plum, the entrance to Plum Creek has been muddy constantly since it was first built and people have ridden it for years without lifting a finger to help it drain or dry. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have ridden that trail and it was even remotely dry in some spots.

    High Plum has other build and maintenance issues that need attention too, but the prevailing feeling among some riders is don't do anything beyond what has already been done, regardless of what is falling apart or dangerous. I donated most of the wood for the bridge that everybody seems to love so much, but when I first started riding that trail, it didn't have anything built on it.

    Why don't we just go back to the way it was? Because it was basically unrideable for all but a two or three people. And still is. Despite my decent skills, I tend to walk more of that trail than I ride and it simply doesn't have good flow yet. I don't think we should try to take out all the challenge, but there is a difference between risk and hazard and some smart benching and rock work would make it much more fun and sustainable, not to mention safer. Disagree if you want, but we also have responsiblity to the landowners to properly build and maintain the trails.

    I don't like to ride in the mud, but sometimes do. VMBA and IMBA are correct in asking people to be respectful, but this doesn't mean we need to be draconian in these efforts.

    I've spent more hours working on trails than riding this year, by a factor of at least ten. Some stuff has been rain-proofed, but a lot more needs to be done. Anonymous ranting on the web, without coming to trail days or supporting the club, does not give one much credence. Bring your energy and ideas to the trail and a lot more people will listen.

    John

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2
    Hawk-good point about tattling to the USFS.
    Again, I understand why some folks feel that the mountain doesn't care or won't listen, but coming in here and posting grievances is problematic for many reasons. First, it erodes the complainer's credibility. Second, it makes the entire board look bad. Third, when SB gets in trouble, everyone loses. The management, hell, the ownership are all very accessible and they are very visible and open to comment.

  7. #22

    You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head u

    I think that current trail issues are more related to the strange wet spring and summer it has been than to mountain policies. It seems to me that the overall record and philosophy of SV Corp has demonstrated to employ a thoughtful and balanced approach between utilization and preservation of the mountain.

    Bottom line: I don't know Shizzle about mountain biking but, "You can take a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather
    take the butcher's word for it?"
    Tommy Boy/1995

    Uh . . . . in this case Win would probably be the butcher. . . . I'm not sure who the bull represents, maybe USFS.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by summitchallenger
    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2
    Hawk-good point about tattling to the USFS.
    Again, I understand why some folks feel that the mountain doesn't care or won't listen, but coming in here and posting grievances is problematic for many reasons. First, it erodes the complainer's credibility. Second, it makes the entire board look bad. Third, when SB gets in trouble, everyone loses. The management, hell, the ownership are all very accessible and they are very visible and open to comment.
    I draw the line at trying to get the mtn in trouble with the authorities. Complaints should be freely expressed on this board. It is part of what makes the discussions useful. Given the participation of management and locals, it should be done in a respectful and constructive way. Especially since management has been so receptive and responsive in the past.

  9. #24

    Join Date
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    If anyone wants to speak to me personally, it is easy. wsmith@sugarbush.com or 583-6832.

  10. #25
    I rememeber reading an article that the state provided money to armor the cyclone last year. If it's not draining properly after that can you really "armor" it or any trail?

  11. #26

    Join Date
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    but coming in here and posting grievances is problematic for many reasons. First, it erodes the complainer's credibility. Second, it makes the entire board look bad. Third, when SB gets in trouble, everyone loses. The management, hell, the ownership are all very accessible and they are very visible and open to comment.
    I think the credibility of a poster has to do with the truth of what they say. not whether they complain about anything.

    I also think the board looks worse if everyone only agrees with the mountain. That is not to say that everyone should argue or put the mountain down but rather speak the truth as they see it.

    Self censorship can be the worst kind.


    Just my $.02




    Oh yeah... And I don't care about mountainbikes. Just keep them out of the way of my boat!
    .
    .
    You will only find me where I never can be.

  12. #27
    The work done of Cyclone last year was mainly on the lower part and included two bridges, plus other major reroutes and armoring projects. The areas where work was done are draining well and in good or great condition. The upper part saw no work from the VYCC crew and this is where most of the problems persist. The only argument against more armoring is that it takes effort to get off your bike and do it.

    Guyers got a pass through yesterday, with some new rock work. I can't believe how much awesome stone there is in these woods. Huge flat slabs and beautiful quartz abound. I started up Hell Hill too, and got the flat section after the first steep pitch to start draining. More work is needed here and we will be continuing to move through the rest of the course over the next month or so.

    The sections of the course that look the same as always are clearly well-designed and built, while the problem areas highlight where work needs to be done. We had a little over 100 competitors in three days. This amount of traffic is less than what the trails in Waterbury see in a similar time frame.

    I appreciate that people have concerns and don't want to stifle any discussion. This is all a work in progress and we need help to keep evolving.

    John

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