Claybrook/Ski School/Patrol Only

[win]

I haven't read everyone's comments, but I do not have any apologies at all for extending some special privileges to Clay Brook owners. Everyone wants Sugarbush to get better each year and to continue to committing significant capital into improving this place for everyone. The sale of CB and of additional residential units is how that is going to happen. The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc, and I hardly think it is a major inconvenience to anyone.

[Tin Woodsman]

I haven't read everyone's comments, but I do not have any apologies at all for extending some special privileges to Clay Brook owners. Everyone wants Sugarbush to get better each year and to continue to committing significant capital into improving this place for everyone. The sale of CB and of additional residential units is how that is going to happen. The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc, and I hardly think it is a major inconvenience to anyone.

Quoted for truth. I don't see eye to eye with Win on everything, but he's dead on ball saccurate with this, even if the change is philosophically distasteful.

[Yard Sale]

I haven't read everyone's comments, but I do not have any apologies at all for extending some special privileges to Clay Brook owners. Everyone wants Sugarbush to get better each year and to continue to committing significant capital into improving this place for everyone. The sale of CB and of additional residential units is how that is going to happen. The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc, and I hardly think it is a major inconvenience to anyone.

Quoted for truth. I don't see eye to eye with Win on everything, but he's dead on ball saccurate with this, even if the change is philosophically distasteful.

I don't see how it is distasteful.

[sgottmann]

Win

As usual, thanks for Win's word on this one. I doubt it is in the cards, but is there any thought of a Claybrook membership for use of ameneties by non-owners? Perhaps, some sort of annual club dues that entitles the member to all inclusive Sugarbush membership at Claybrook, Golf, Health Club, Annual Pass, etc. While I am not in the market, it seems as if there may be demand from other property owners for high the higher end amenities. Just a revenue raising suggestion.

Regards

[Tin Woodsman]

I don't see how it is distasteful.

Because you'd rather the mountain be able to fund its improvements w/o resorting to changes like this which provide a perception that is out of step with the Valley's character. This isn't Okemo or Stratton, nor should it aspire to be. This policy, however necessary, represents an importation of those sorts of values which many of us have come to SB to escape. Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point b/c the actual impact is so minute.

[Last Tracks]

Is the right to use ski school lines written into an HOA agreement or deed? Or is it a privilege that Sugarbush extends at its discretion?

[madhavok]

The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc,

Dead wrong. As a non-Claybrook owner I do not pay for and am not entitled in anyway to the privileges of the pool, hot tub, valet parking, equipment valet, etc. Anyone who purchases a season pass or daily ticket on the other hand is entitled to lift access and being so at least some of the terrain is Green Mountain National Forest, this could be an equal public access issue.

Further more if lift lines aren’t a problem why is this privilege even needed? Personally I highly doubt this privilege will even help sell any units. However if being more important and getting to cut the slobs in line does sway someone to buying into Claybrook then their not the type of person we need coming up here.

If this is your final decision then my only suggestion is to revise Summit Ventures #1 & #2 principles.

1). Our guest’s interest comes first
2). Respect for individuals

[Yard Sale]

I don't see how it is distasteful.

Because you'd rather the mountain be able to fund its improvements w/o resorting to changes like this which provide a perception that is out of step with the Valley's character. This isn't Okemo or Stratton, nor should it aspire to be. This policy, however necessary, represents an importation of those sorts of values which many of us have come to SB to escape. Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point b/c the actual impact is so minute.

Close enough.

For me it's back to the 'Bush after a too long hiatus: skiing, wife, children, friends, fires and tramping around the woods with my goofy dogs and a couple of brain grenades (beers). Talk about perks, Baby!

BTW, not a Claybrooker, not that there is antyhting wrong with that.

Viva La Revolución!

[Tin Woodsman]

The privilege of using the ski school lines at Bravo and the Gate House lift is a perk of ownership as is the use of the pool, valet parking, hot tubs, etc,

Dead wrong. As a non-Claybrook owner I do not pay for and am not entitled in anyway to the privileges of the pool, hot tub, valet parking, equipment valet, etc.

Nor are you entitled to use the ski school line, unless you pay for a lesson. I don't see the inconsistency here at all.

Further more if lift lines aren’t a problem why is this privilege even needed? Personally I highly doubt this privilege will even help sell any units. However if being more important and getting to cut the slobs in line does sway someone to buying into Claybrook then their not the type of person we need coming up here.

I'm sure that Win doesn't need unsolicited advice from you on who he needs up here. What "we" need up here (and by we, I mean us people who ski and love SB) are people willing to throw down for CB units in order to fund the stuff that matters to people on this board. It's not a pretty thought, but that's the reality. If SB could rely soley on lift ticket sales to ensure its future, it wouldn't be on its 6th? (7th?) set of owners. Notice how SV is the 4th set just since 1984 - the period when snowmaking became a mandatory feature.

[Plowboy]

I remember sking at Great Gorge(NJ) back in the mid 70's with two brothers that had preferred lift line passes. Their father was a member of the Playboy Club accross the rd. , all members and family got preferred lift line passes. I'm not sure if they sold these type passes to the general public though. I found this letter written by Greg Zoll. Cool stuff about snowmaking and check out the 2nd to last sentence.






Above is the actual installation in the Great Gorge parking lot, taken in the late 1960s by Curtiss-Wright. In the background is Great Gorge North prior to development. Photos courtesy the Zoll family.

Snow making was crucial to GG's early success and they were very innovative there as well -- a Curtiss-Wright "Jet Air Compressor" was installed in the parking lot in the late 60's. It used a modified "J-65" jet aircraft engine to compress air and was the brain child of a couple of innovative Curtiss-Wright engineers, including my dad. It was marketed to GG by a Curtiss-Wright VP, skier and early GG bond holder. The benefit was that it made A LOT of clean air. I remember Matt Baker boasting that on one cold night they could put a foot of snow down on the entire length of Kamikazee. It also made oil free air - unlike the old diesel compressors they used initially. This made the snow more natural.

As this was a prototype machine it required a lot of nursing during the initial winters, and I can remember my dad and his team spending many long evenings keeping it and the snowmaking operations running. The thrill for me was that my Dad's hard work did not go unrecognized, and for many years running, management gave both me and my Dad complementary PREFERRED LIFT LINE SEASON PASSES. This was a real status symbol and in the days of the 45 minute lift line it was a good thing to have.

[arc1]

Very sorry to see Win's response on this. The Bush has a reputation as a legit skier's mountain, and this policy reeks. The Claybrook first mindset caters to a miniscule percentage of the skiers on the hill while pissing off everyone else who is heavily invested in condos, houses, programs and all. Why the new money gets the good stuff at the expense of the folks who have been floating this place eludes me.

The pendulum has swung too far. Seen the apres menu at Timbers? Who doesn't want a plate of humus after skiing? During the holidays all these swell parties were going on while the snowguns were far too quiet and you needed hockey skates to get around the hi . No matter how cool the parties, if the skiing doesn't measure up no matter how nice the digs don't expect visitors to return.

I'd like to see focus on our decaying infrastructure - I have a feeling that might help business.

[HowieT2]

Very sorry to see Win's response on this. The Bush has a reputation as a legit skier's mountain, and this policy reeks. The Claybrook first mindset caters to a miniscule percentage of the skiers on the hill while pissing off everyone else who is heavily invested in condos, houses, programs and all. Why the new money gets the good stuff at the expense of the folks who have been floating this place eludes me.

The pendulum has swung too far. Seen the apres menu at Timbers? Who doesn't want a plate of humus after skiing? During the holidays all these swell parties were going on while the snowguns were far too quiet and you needed hockey skates to get around the hi . No matter how cool the parties, if the skiing doesn't measure up no matter how nice the digs don't expect visitors to return.

I'd like to see focus on our decaying infrastructure - I have a feeling that might help business.

not to be repetitive, but speak for yourself. This doesn't piss "everyone" off, only a vocal minority like yourself .
If you really want to see investment in infrastructure, where do you think the money is going to come from. As previously mentioned (see Woodsman,Tin), mountain operations generate only modest profits in a good year on thin margins. The only way to pay for a new GH lodge, was through selling claybrook. Similarly, the only way there is going to be a new GS lodge, VH lift, etc. is to sell the remainder of the claybrook shares and build and sell more living units. There isn't a ski operation in the world that does capital improvements without selling real estate.

and i like humus. got a problem with that?

[ScoobySnack]

Thanks for responding, Win. Much applause for your continued presence on this board and particularly for joining the fray on this issue.
Those of us who find the policy disappointing really don't really expect it to be retracted at this point of course, but surely you can understand the position that this creates a separate class of skier on the mountain, which goes against what many people love about a place like Sugarbush. The key here is "on the mountain". You reference that this perk is not much different that access to the pool and hot tub, but nobody purchases a ticket/season pass expecting to have access to the pool or hot tub at CB. We did, however, pretty much expect to be treated equally with all other Sugarbush guests while on the mountain.
You and others have referenced that this is not really expected to cause any real inconvenience if lift lines to non-CB skiers, but on busy weekend/holidays when CB is full, it could add an additional 500 or more people or so with line-cut privileges at the two most popular lifts (depending on how many cut passes per share/rental). Would that really be negligible? (I'm genuinely asking, not being sarcastic).
The fact that this topic seems to be headed to be the most widely read thread ever on the board demonstrates that this is an issue to many. Speaking for myself, I understand and accept it (no choice of course), but request that SV consider why this is a concern as well.
Thanks.

[barkbiter]

Is Dawn Patrol a girl or a guy with a girls name ?

[Tin Woodsman]

You and others have referenced that this is not really expected to cause any real inconvenience if lift lines to non-CB skiers, but on busy weekend/holidays when CB is full, it could add an additional 500 or more people or so with line-cut privileges at the two most popular lifts (depending on how many cut passes per share/rental). Would that really be negligible? (I'm genuinely asking, not being sarcastic).

Is it too much to ask to read back through the thread and get the numbers? Having read what I've already posted here, I don't see hwo anyone could come up with the notion that there could be even close to 500 people on the mountain with the line cutting passes.

61 units
144 total bedrooms

Your 500 estimate would imply that:

1) All 61 units are sold
2) All 61 units are occupied on that weekend
3) There are 3.5 people in each and every bedroom (not unit - bedroom) who are in the owner's nuclear family.

None of those assumptions are true, and some of them are grossly inaccurate, even if this were Utah.

You're looking at about 100-150 people max at any given time. A few will be at North. A few will be in the lodge. Many will be elsewhere on the mountain. Very few will actually be noticeable cutting the lift line at SB and GH.