Claybrook/Ski School/Patrol Only

[Yard Sale]

Bill-Now wrote about 4 pages ago:

"The line cutting passes are only valid for owners and immediate family (the card has a picture ID) and they only apply to the SB and GH chairs. In my case we have four cards for a three bedroom unit."

Illuminating isn't it?

Bbbbut YS, that's not "in writing" and notarized from a member of the Board of SV, so it can't possibly be believed.

It doesn't mean crap. My brother is immediate family, so his wife is too, and his wife's three children from a different marriage and... and.... And oh they get 5 guest passes too!

I love it! Let's keep stretching and stretching to see how outrageous a POV we can construct! What about their cousins twice removed from three marriages ago??!!!

Perhaps bill-now can come back in and help clear it up for those who aren't convinced as yet. Presumably, the passes were given to the head of the household who purchased the unit, their current spouse, and their children.

That is the point. I made an obviously ridiculous example to show that you have no clue how many there are. You can keep assuming, I'll keep saying we don't know.

You have a well worn pattern of making your point with ridiculous examples. It's not a very effective method of debate.

[MntMan4Bush]

Well I continue to post because 1) I'm not close enough to the mountain to be skiing and 2) I'm bored at work and enjoy reading everyone bash and be bashed. Frankly I find it amusing and have done my best to see how long we can keep this going.

Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners. Or discredit someone's opinion by casting them in a negative light. I seem to remember most who have posted here have also posted on:

- The size of the fire pit
- North or South early/late season skiing
- Price of replacement season passes
- Hitting one's head on the bathroom shelf or the material it's made of
- Related to he last, but my all time favorite the type of fasteners and lag bolts used to install said shelf. I mean really. That one just cracks me.
- The health of saplings at the edge of trails (This one I actually agree with, but doesn't necessarily come out right in the forum)
- And most recently CB pass cutting

The point is at some point most people have had an opinion or something that has bothered them (still cracking up on the shelf fasteners as I write. Every time I pee I laugh and just a little more comes out), but not necessarily bothered everyone else. Why is it that immediately people are painted as whiners or my all favorite marketing campaign of "why don't you ski somewhere else"?

So state your points, but before you dismiss someone and send a little bash out remember the crap you've complained about. Now of course I've NEVER fallen into this category and I'm only talking about all of you........fasteners on the bathroom shelf.........OMG I can't stop laughing

[Tin Woodsman]

That is the point. I made an obviously ridiculous example to show that you have no clue how many there are. You can keep assuming, I'll keep saying we don't know.

That's all you've contributed to this thread is obviously ridiculous examples containing only hyperbole. You then compare them with reasonable, fact-based estimates that I've put together, declare that they are both equally wrong, and march onwards. As a debating tactic for grade school kids, you win. As a reasonable basis for an intelligent discourse, not so much.

As mentioned above, I'm anything but a SB apologist - I call it like I see it. I just want the facts and, as opposed to you, I'm not coming at this with a strongly held opinion that overrides any data points I come across.

[Go Figure]

I hope all the posters here are self employed if "working". If not You ARE stealing from Your employer. One peek and a post is one thing, but some of You are too much.

[gone.skiing]

Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners.

That is because he sounds like a crybaby with an axe to grind. People have managed to bring up issues and get them resolved in the past without questioning SV's motives or integrity in the way DP (or is that DB) is doing now.

[Dawn Patrol]

Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners.

That is because he sounds like a crybaby with an axe to grind. People have managed to bring up issues and get them resolved in the past without questioning SV's motives or integrity in the way DP (or is that DB) is doing now.

Personal attacks are awesome!! I don't believe I've done that yet.. Though you have several times in this thread alone..................

[Tin Woodsman]

I hope all the posters here are self employed if "working". If not You ARE stealing from Your employer. One peek and a post is one thing, but some of You are too much.

Thanks for the unsolicited advice.

No really. Personally, I wanted to hear what you have to say about my relationship with my employer. Seriously.

[Dawn Patrol]

That is the point. I made an obviously ridiculous example to show that you have no clue how many there are. You can keep assuming, I'll keep saying we don't know.

That's all you've contributed to this thread is obviously ridiculous examples containing only hyperbole. You then compare them with reasonable, fact-based estimates that I've put together, declare that they are both equally wrong, and march onwards. As a debating tactic for grade school kids, you win. As a reasonable basis for an intelligent discourse, not so much.

As mentioned above, I'm anything but a SB apologist - I call it like I see it. I just want the facts and, as opposed to you, I'm not coming at this with a strongly held opinion that overrides any data points I come across.

Well.. I started with reasonable numbers on maximum possible people in beds at Claybrook... But clearly your guesstimating on how many people PROBABLY come up was better.... So I had to point out how silly you were being introducing SEVERAL unknowns that are being multiplied into your guess....

[bill-now]

All I know as fact is that myself, my spouse, and both of my children received these passes. The photos were pulled from our season passes.

My experience is that the management here at CB is pretty familiar with the owners and their family relationships. It would be difficult to pull a fast one on them.

[ski_resort_observer]

MntMan4Bush wrote:
Bottom line is Dawn has a grievance about something and he's bringing it up. Everyone then loves to jump in and call people childlike or whiners.

That is because he sounds like a crybaby with an axe to grind. People have managed to bring up issues and get them resolved in the past without questioning SV's motives or integrity in the way DP (or is that DB) is doing now.

As mentioned a couple of times Dawn Patrol is a she, not a he. If you genuinely suffer from Gendlexia, instead of he/she just type in the poster's username. Thanks

[Tin Woodsman]

The point is at some point most people have had an opinion or something that has bothered them (still cracking up on the shelf fasteners as I write. Every time I pee I laugh and just a little more comes out), but not necessarily bothered everyone else. Why is it that immediately people are painted as whiners or my all favorite marketing campaign of "why don't you ski somewhere else"?

So state your points, but before you dismiss someone and send a little bash out remember the crap you've complained about.

Mtn Man -

I think the difference here is that in every example you cite, the issue was discussed rationally and factually. You want to talk about the fall/spring skiing choice? Let's do it. Want to talk about how SB is neglecting the forest ecosystem? Game on. I will come to the discussion with arguments based on facts, logic and reason. Now while that may not suffice with my wife, it should be the basis for a reasonable discourse on subjects where people may not agree.

What's different here is that two posters are presenting this issue as the end of the world, and literally have not a single fact to back up the notion that it may have a material impact on their skiing lives. There is hysterical speculation. There is character assassination. There's even a little bit of petty envy thrown in on top. Notice that neither of the two protagonists has chosen to engage in a serious discussion of the actual numbers, preferring instead to retreat to the comfort of knowingly outrageous examples. They are personally affronted, and the degree to which this bothers them is clouding their judgement as to actual impact.

When I bitched and moaned about the CR pub being too small, the usual coterie of apologists here tried to play down my concerns. But any idiot could see that capacity was a problem if they tried to walk into the bar between 3 and 5 on a Saturday/holiday. Anyone could observe for themselves what a waste of space the old patio was in the generally cold New England weather. Anyone could run the numbers on the capacity of the old CR pub, the Wunderbard and the Mushroom compared to the current venue to understand there was a problem. This was all reasonably verifiable.

In contrast, there isn't one scintilla of observable evidence which indicates that this issue will have a material impact on anyone's skiing life. It's a principle thing. Fine. But don't concoct bogus arguments and make hysterical accusations and predictions just b/c you disagree with the policy. I think that's what people are reacting to here - at least I am.

[Jacksun]

I bought a season pass, got a booklet with discounts for various venues around the valley.
My kids are in Blazers, they get a discount on lunches.
I patronize certain businesses and eventually get a benefit of some sort after so many visits/purchases.
If I were a frequent flyer I'd get lots of bennies after hitting mileage requirements, including preferential seating, upgrades and better treatment by the airline.
If I joined a semi-private country club, I'd get prefential tee times.
If I bought a CB quarter share condo, I'd get to cut the liftline.

I think the problem is that we have a culture of line respect. Go to some countries and cutting, pushing and shoving is what being in line is all about. Others, like ours, respect, staying in ones place and not cutting are the norm. Someone made posted earlier that it galls them when people don't respect the alternation that occurs in the corrals.

My two cents is that this particular CB perk goes against our cultural norm, which is why many find it so galling. Give the CB owners a discount or first dibs on seating at Timbers, no problem. Give them permanent discounts at the Mtn Sports Shop, no problem. Give them a discount on passes or lift tix, no problem. Give them line priviledges, highly visible to the rest of us - strikes a nerve, irks us, feelings akin to being cut off when driving.

So I believe that SV made a poor choice with this perk, which is really a marketing ploy, but which goes against some behavioral traits which we possess.

That said, I'm with those that think the impact will be minimal. Assuming the cardholders follow the rules, it would seem they couldn't use them when skiing with their friends, and it certainly wouldn't do them any good to jump the line when everyone else they're with has to wait. So, to me, the impact is the visual one. Lastly, I don't think it's a powder day issue, much more of a windhold/holiday overflow day problem. That's when it's going to appear really unfair.

[Tin Woodsman]

Well.. I started with reasonable numbers on maximum possible people in beds at Claybrook... But clearly your guesstimating on how many people PROBABLY come up was better.... So I had to point out how silly you were being introducing SEVERAL unknowns that are being multiplied into your guess....

Right. It's reasonable to assume that 3-4 people occupy a typical 1 BR or studio. It's reasonable to assume that the avg 2 BR unit has 6 people in it. That's pretty standard - in Calcutta. It's reasonable to assume that all 61 units are occupied and their owners are at SB even though only 53 have been sold in full or in part. Then on top of that, it's reasonable to assume that all sold units have 4 owners, all of whom are up on a normal weekend. Finally, it's entirely reasonable to assume that friends and distant relatives will be eligible for the passes despite several statements to the contrary from people who know.

If you think we're coming up with similar arguments but from a different perspective, you're not paying attention.

[MntMan4Bush]

Well put Jackson. That is exactly what irks me personally. In fact I almost posted something similar, but wasn't sure if anyone else would get it. In my travels I've found that anywhere west of Turkey has only a marginal concept of lines and the further west you go it decreases exponentially. When I travel and often get pushed and shoved in lines and out right cut by people who think that the rest of us are standing around because we couldn't see the space on either side of the objective not crowded with people I just shrug and let it go. I'm traveling to their environment and culture and it's a way of life. It doesn't bother me at all. (Well not any more once I got used to it) East of Turkey is the opposite where line courtesy is understood. Take England. They love a good queue and will often hop in a line even when there is nothing at the end of it. So when I'm in a place where line priority is an understood concept and someone goes around it the perception as opposed to the real effect bothers me. I'm not going to let it effect my day, but it does bother me. As I've stated before I think it has minimal impact on even the busiest of days in the most extreme of circumstances. Oh well.

Now Tin, I'd find it hard to argue with you on most of the concepts I'd brought up as I think I agree with you on most of them. My point was that some may dismiss some as petty as I think many are doing here. (Not all) Regardless I will talk facts about the fasteners on the urinal shelf for a little while then we can move on to the scrolling on the wainscoting in the upper conference room. Fasteners......It's too much...too much I tell you.............. Man this forum has had it's share.

[Tin Woodsman]

I bought a season pass, got a booklet with discounts for various venues around the valley.
My kids are in Blazers, they get a discount on lunches.
I patronize certain businesses and eventually get a benefit of some sort after so many visits/purchases.
If I were a frequent flyer I'd get lots of bennies after hitting mileage requirements, including preferential seating, upgrades and better treatment by the airline.
If I joined a semi-private country club, I'd get prefential tee times.
If I bought a CB quarter share condo, I'd get to cut the liftline.

I think the problem is that we have a culture of line respect. Go to some countries and cutting, pushing and shoving is what being in line is all about. Others, like ours, respect, staying in ones place and not cutting are the norm. Someone made posted earlier that it galls them when people don't respect the alternation that occurs in the corrals.

My two cents is that this particular CB perk goes against our cultural norm, which is why many find it so galling. Give the CB owners a discount or first dibs on seating at Timbers, no problem. Give them permanent discounts at the Mtn Sports Shop, no problem. Give them a discount on passes or lift tix, no problem. Give them line priviledges, highly visible to the rest of us - strikes a nerve, irks us, feelings akin to being cut off when driving.

So I believe that SV made a poor choice with this perk, which is really a marketing ploy, but which goes against some behavioral traits which we possess.

That said, I'm with those that think the impact will be minimal. Assuming the cardholders follow the rules, it would seem they couldn't use them when skiing with their friends, and it certainly wouldn't do them any good to jump the line when everyone else they're with has to wait. So, to me, the impact is the visual one. Lastly, I don't think it's a powder day issue, much more of a windhold/holiday overflow day problem. That's when it's going to appear really unfair.

How dare you interject facts, logic and reason into this discussion!

Great first post.