Some Observations From This Week

[BushMogulMaster]

I have a couple of questions since you seem to actually know what you're talking about.
I saw the demo fan gun parked by the maintenance building at LP between new years and 1/4. Why wasn't it being used? Is it because the conditions made the other equipment more efficient?
When I last skied on 1/4, they had been blowing snow on Stein's for 3 days straight. Don't get me wrong, Stein's was great and I know it needs to be built up for the spring, but it was great after day one. Why wasn't that capacity utilized to get some snow on north Lynx and get that area open? With Castlerock and North Lynx closed on friday the crowds were bad (by SB standards). I also don't understand why they haven't put some snow down on lower Ripcord leading to the HG which was in terrible shape.

I think we can all accept reasonable limitations and tradeoffs that have to be made in deciding where/when to make snow. What is not acceptable, having done our part and paid for our passes, houses, blazers etc., is if the snowmaking is being limited to save a few bucks (I am not saying that that is the case).

I'll have to defer to Win on this one. I'm not up to speed with what's going on over at Lincoln Peak, nor am I working in snowmaking this year.

But rest assured that snowmaking isn't being limited just to pinch pennies. Recognize the difference between intelligent fiscal decisions, and just trying to save money. It would be a waste of that money from your passes, etc. to blow snow where it isn't really needed. Save that money for when or where it IS needed!

Not sure about the demo gun, but I'll offer some potential reasons. If the period you're talking about was during those sub-zero nights, then the air/water guns would have been more efficient and less of a headache. When the valves and nozzles freeze on those fan guns, it's a pain. No that you can't work with them, but why bother when you have other equipment available. And the air/water guns put out more volume anyway. At least the Rats.

[freeheel_skier]

Thanks for the breakdown BMM. All the questions regardint resurfacing and snowmaking peaked my curiosity. I had to ask.

Win thanks for your imput too.

[HowieT2]

I have a couple of questions since you seem to actually know what you're talking about.
I saw the demo fan gun parked by the maintenance building at LP between new years and 1/4. Why wasn't it being used? Is it because the conditions made the other equipment more efficient?
When I last skied on 1/4, they had been blowing snow on Stein's for 3 days straight. Don't get me wrong, Stein's was great and I know it needs to be built up for the spring, but it was great after day one. Why wasn't that capacity utilized to get some snow on north Lynx and get that area open? With Castlerock and North Lynx closed on friday the crowds were bad (by SB standards). I also don't understand why they haven't put some snow down on lower Ripcord leading to the HG which was in terrible shape.

I think we can all accept reasonable limitations and tradeoffs that have to be made in deciding where/when to make snow. What is not acceptable, having done our part and paid for our passes, houses, blazers etc., is if the snowmaking is being limited to save a few bucks (I am not saying that that is the case).

I'll have to defer to Win on this one. I'm not up to speed with what's going on over at Lincoln Peak, nor am I working in snowmaking this year.

But rest assured that snowmaking isn't being limited just to pinch pennies. Recognize the difference between intelligent fiscal decisions, and just trying to save money. It would be a waste of that money from your passes, etc. to blow snow where it isn't really needed. Save that money for when or where it IS needed!

Not sure about the demo gun, but I'll offer some potential reasons. If the period you're talking about was during those sub-zero nights, then the air/water guns would have been more efficient and less of a headache. When the valves and nozzles freeze on those fan guns, it's a pain. No that you can't work with them, but why bother when you have other equipment available. And the air/water guns put out more volume anyway. At least the Rats.

Thanks BMM.

[shadyjay]

I have a couple of questions since you seem to actually know what you're talking about.
I saw the demo fan gun parked by the maintenance building at LP between new years and 1/4. Why wasn't it being used? Is it because the conditions made the other equipment more efficient?
When I last skied on 1/4, they had been blowing snow on Stein's for 3 days straight. Don't get me wrong, Stein's was great and I know it needs to be built up for the spring, but it was great after day one. Why wasn't that capacity utilized to get some snow on north Lynx and get that area open? With Castlerock and North Lynx closed on friday the crowds were bad (by SB standards). I also don't understand why they haven't put some snow down on lower Ripcord leading to the HG which was in terrible shape.

I think we can all accept reasonable limitations and tradeoffs that have to be made in deciding where/when to make snow. What is not acceptable, having done our part and paid for our passes, houses, blazers etc., is if the snowmaking is being limited to save a few bucks (I am not saying that that is the case).

I'll have to defer to Win on this one. I'm not up to speed with what's going on over at Lincoln Peak, nor am I working in snowmaking this year.

But rest assured that snowmaking isn't being limited just to pinch pennies. Recognize the difference between intelligent fiscal decisions, and just trying to save money. It would be a waste of that money from your passes, etc. to blow snow where it isn't really needed. Save that money for when or where it IS needed!

Not sure about the demo gun, but I'll offer some potential reasons. If the period you're talking about was during those sub-zero nights, then the air/water guns would have been more efficient and less of a headache. When the valves and nozzles freeze on those fan guns, it's a pain. No that you can't work with them, but why bother when you have other equipment available. And the air/water guns put out more volume anyway. At least the Rats.

I've made snow with both fan guns and traditional air/waters. Fan guns do make good snow but yes you do have to worry about the nozzles freezing up. We used to have a lot of that when I worked at a ski area in CT, one that hasn't opened for a few years. We used to have a good amount of both guns, but one thing to remember is that, while some fan guns have their own compressor for air, you still need electricity. And on my visual inspections throughout the mountain, each "station" has, for the most part, just air and water hydrants - no power. Sure, a fan gun could be positioned in the base or some other area where power is accessible. And I believe there's one mounted near the base of Straight Shot on Mt Ellen (where the halfpipe used to be). So to operate a fan gun elsewhere on the mtn, or a whole fleet of them for that matter, you'd need to wire up the trails. Now granted, Mt Snow heavily invested in this technology in the past few years, but their trails are much wider and (it seems) straighter than those at the Bush.

I saw that "demo" gun today going up the Bravo. Then now I see this thread. If the desire is to do the base with a fan gun, that I can see. But if its a decision between fan vs air waters, I'll go with the a/w. No need to wire up the entire mountain when the a/w guns work just fine and produce plenty of snow.

[Plowboy]

Plowboy... the break in the line by the school WAS repaired. Regardless of the current condition of that line, IMO... there's no point in even thinking about replacing during the winter months.

I missed that fix. I know they would not replace that line during the winter, but I would think about replacing that line this summer. Like I said that line has had a lot of problems in the past few years. I have seen water coming out in the parking lot, along the ME Access Rd. and on German Flats. I am surprised there has not been a bad accident on German Flats due to ice and gravel on the rd. when it breaks there.

[John Walden]

My ski gang said the same thing about Stein's. It skiied great after one day of snowmaking. Why not move to other areas that were in need of snow; such as North Lynx.

Kudos to Win and his team. We were able to ski 9 out of 12 days during Christmas break. Some days were marginal; crowds, wind, rain- but it's NE. Off to Utah on Saturday for 10 days.

[skibum1321]

I disagree about the snowmaking on Stein's. Yes, it was good after one day, but I would rather see them load up on it to get it ready for spring. North Lynx doesn't see a whole lot of traffic and would have done very little to relieve crowding. Personally, I wouldn't blow over there at all, as I see it as kind of a waste. I prefer that as few trails as possible get hit with the guns because the snow quality suffers big time once snow has been blown. Sure, they'll be better until we get some snow, but long term they are worse off.

[summitchallenger]

Us Sugarbush Loyals are not the only ones scratching our heads on the snowmaking issue. These are two comments that came in from Killington regulars, who have been very vocal about their dislike for Killington.

Geoff's post from AlpineZone.

The second post is from KZone.

I think that the second one sums it up pretty well...Win and Company have really delivered on the customer service piece. I think that goes a long way to keeping us there. I think that the aim is to market the experience and to personalize it, whereas with Killington, SKI, and to some extent ASC, the "product" was the snow. I think that the snow has been OK, but that is considering the weather and the economy. Snowmaking is expensive and tough...but I just think that it has been OK compared to years past.

An obvious caveat though was that he was skiing at Mount Ellen and the wind damage was pretty bad on Cruiser and Lower Elbow. No groomer or snowmaking can fix that. But I think our comments have been focused on the amount of time to recover and what can be done. Maybe we are being a bit unrealistic. I don't know. I think we just are calling it as we see it.

One thing to keep in mind is the tradeoffs that are made to keep a business running. We got the Lincoln Peak village. I noticed upon my return in 2007 that the rental compressors at the Lincoln Peak snowmaking building on the mountain (above the Bravo base) were removed and have not been replaced elsewhere. This makes senes because there is less noise and million dollar condo owners don't like to hear compressors running. But what I have asked, and still have not seen, is if those compressors were moved or simply have not been replaced. From what I have seen, it is the latter and this means less capacity.

[ski_resort_observer]

One thing to keep in mind is the tradeoffs that are made to keep a business running.We got the Lincoln Peak village. I noticed upon my return in 2007 that the rental compressors at the Lincoln Peak snowmaking building on the mountain (above the Bravo base) were removed and have not been replaced elsewhere. This makes senes because there is less noise and million dollar condo owners don't like to hear compressors running. But what I have asked, and still have not seen, is if those compressors were moved or simply have not been replaced. From what I have seen, it is the latter and this means less capacity.

Actually, with the guns running often for the past 10 ten days at the bottom of Gatehouse it is very loud at night right next to Claybrook. One night last week Sandy and I found ourselves at the same spot photographing the parade/fireworks and the guns were so loud we had to practically scream to converse. We wanted to be to the north of the bottom of Gatehouse lift but cause of the guns we ended up a few feet from Claybrook, right above the hot tub. During the busy holiday week I usually left Gatehouse around 6ish and the guns around the LP base were very loud. A very sweet sound is my very jaded take. Nice and quiet at my house.

Your right. guests/owners of Claybrook ARE important but so are all the other guests who ski/ride whether they be season pass holders or day skiers. Many decisions are made knowing that the result not going to make everyone happy.

Recovering from the meltdown especially around the base around due to high traffic it gets and the fact that after the meltdown we were joking about lawnmowers in view of the green grass making up parts of the base area.

So, there has been lots of snowmaking, loud snowmaking, at the bottom of Gatehouse so far this season, "million dollar condo owners" non-withstanding. "One thing to keep in mind is the tradeoffs that are made to keep a business running". So true, so true.

[Tin Woodsman]

I saw that "demo" gun today going up the Bravo. Then now I see this thread. If the desire is to do the base with a fan gun, that I can see. But if its a decision between fan vs air waters, I'll go with the a/w. No need to wire up the entire mountain when the a/w guns work just fine and produce plenty of snow.

I think you are creating a false choice here. I don't think anyone has suggested that the use of fans guns is an all or nothing proposition. Clearly, there are only certain trails where the production and cost characteristics make sense. I would argue that wider, heavily used runs like Spring Fling, Pushover, Cruiser, Inverness and even Birch Run (plus a few key intersections like Times Sq at North and the Steins/Lower OG/Lower Jester/Coffee run area at South) are appropriate targets. Upper elevation or narrower trails likely don't make as much sense. Even Mt. Snow still has a mix of the different technologies, though for them it seems to make sense to weight it more towards fans b/c of generally warmer temps, wider trails, less natural snow, and shorter snowmaking windows.

[Yard Sale]

I believe the absence of those machines and the associated business decision tradeoffs described by Win IFRC were cost of renting/leasing the equipment, cost of operating the equipment (diesel fuel), and the environmental impact (again diesel fuel)

I don't recall noise being cited but I'm sure it is a consideration. But i would also think that as an owner of slope side accomodations one would understand the benefit and necessity of having snow making equipment nearby and accept the trade offs with the acquistion of such choice realestate.

[Tin Woodsman]

I disagree about the snowmaking on Stein's. Yes, it was good after one day, but I would rather see them load up on it to get it ready for spring. North Lynx doesn't see a whole lot of traffic and would have done very little to relieve crowding. Personally, I wouldn't blow over there at all, as I see it as kind of a waste. I prefer that as few trails as possible get hit with the guns because the snow quality suffers big time once snow has been blown. Sure, they'll be better until we get some snow, but long term they are worse off.

I disagree with this pretty strongly. On a typical holiday ski day, North Lynx, and specifically Birch Run, sees a lot more traffic than Steins ever does. Holiday skiers are more likely to be cruiser/family types than hard cores coming up to ski Steins. Without snowmaking, Birch Run would be open about two months out of the year, at best, b/c of its exposure and width. And while they do need to build base depths on Steins to support the spring skiing there, that's a self-imposed choice based on what's convenient for owners at Clay Brook and to help defray fixed costs of the new GH Lodge, not what delivers the best Spring skiing product.

There are plenty of cold days left in the season to build base depths on Steins, but X-Mas and New Years have now come and gone with a closed NL and crowded lift lines. There may be a logic to it, but I don't see it.

[John Walden]

I see that someone agrees with me on this one about Stein's. I maybe dating myself, but I remember North Lynx back in the Poma days. There was no snow making and those trails weren't open much during a marginal year. With the lift and snow making, it's a great run first thing in the morning with the sun on it.

Don't get me wrong about Stein's , but there are other benefits to making snow elsewhere.

[freeheel_skier]

I disagree about the snowmaking on Stein's. Yes, it was good after one day, but I would rather see them load up on it to get it ready for spring. North Lynx doesn't see a whole lot of traffic and would have done very little to relieve crowding. Personally, I wouldn't blow over there at all, as I see it as kind of a waste. I prefer that as few trails as possible get hit with the guns because the snow quality suffers big time once snow has been blown. Sure, they'll be better until we get some snow, but long term they are worse off.

I disagree with this pretty strongly. On a typical holiday ski day, North Lynx, and specifically Birch Run, sees a lot more traffic than Steins ever does. Holiday skiers are more likely to be cruiser/family types than hard cores coming up to ski Steins. Without snowmaking, Birch Run would be open about two months out of the year, at best, b/c of its exposure and width. And while they do need to build base depths on Steins to support the spring skiing there, that's a self-imposed choice based on what's convenient for owners at Clay Brook and to help defray fixed costs of the new GH Lodge, not what delivers the best Spring skiing product.

There are plenty of cold days left in the season to build base depths on Steins, but X-Mas and New Years have now come and gone with a closed NL and crowded lift lines. There may be a logic to it, but I don't see it.

I don't know what the logic is TW. My .02 would be why waste resources to cover something that will close early anyway? Steins probably will see more skiers over the course of the season than NL (due to the fact that NL is done earlier). Maybe I spend too much time @ ME? But I have never expierenced a wait longer than a couple of minutes @ NL.

I would like to see the stats if any on how many skiers hit up NL over the course of the season. I assume mgmt has this info and that is why they have excuted their snowmaking plan this way. Where the hell is BMM when you need him

[MntMan4Bush]

So far on NL I've logged 0 runs, but that's been because it's been closed. So my count again would be 0

If they're not going to bother making snow on it when it needs it then why not just shut that entire peak down and let it re-forest? Bit extreme? OK. So then how about some snow. It's a shame that we have to choose between blowing on Steins and blowing on Birch. It's been beaten like most of Mike Tyson's dates but wouldn't it be nice to have snow making at both? I saw a post about Killington on the forum and while the Customer Service is unquestionably better at SB no one really wanted to comment on the snow making or lack there of. Everyone seemed to be of the mindset that it was one or the other. Why can't we be great with Customer Service AND have good snow. We don't have to have more then Killington, but we can at least come close. To offer a preemptive rebuke to the two sure to follow comments:

1) I choose to ski at SB because I love the mountain and want it to be constantly better. I've been a season pass holder for several years and just got my wife one this season so hold back on your "If you like it so much there......." comments

2) In order of preference. 1) Natural Snow (I mainly stay on Spills, Twist and ME at South and Bravo, Exterminator, Encore at North) 2) Man Made 3) No snow. As you can see while natural snow is preferable, no snow falls a distant 3rd.

Just one guy talking here for what it's worth.................