Ski Was Great

[Tin Woodsman]

i beleive we have a bumper sticker in the making

SUGARBUSH Vermont
quityerbitchin'

and saturday was great in my book. it's only gonna get better...

You're doing nobody any favors, least of all Win, by advocating "quiten yer bitchin". It's understandable that there will be differing points of view on this issue, and I think we'd all agree that ensuring SB's long-term viability is a common goal that is shared by anyone who bothered to find this place and register to post in the first place. That said, we certainly can and should have a lively debate with respect to issues like this and the associated questions of investment priorities and competition from other major hills in the area. I wouldn't advocate simply turning on the taps whenever the wet bulb temp dips below 32, and I don't believe anyone else is either. Furthermore, the strategy of deepening base depths and ensuring good cover on Jester/Downspout and OG rather than just adding a shmear to one of them in an attempt to open more terrain elsewhere is also prudent, IMO. So, from my perspective (and I know I'm not alone here), this shines the light on the lack of snowmaking capacity overall, a limitation which really came into focus on Sunday when HG was closed for a spell and 2/3 of the available terrain was off-limits as a result. For a mountain that is as good as SB, which aspires to be among the elite in the Northeast (or already is depending on your POV), that shouldn't be viewed as an acceptable state of affairs. Or if acceptable, certainly far less than optimal, even for opening weekend.

And let's recall that this isn't the first time this issue has arisen. When the Summit Quad was bombarded with crowds two years ago, it was in large part due to the inability to blow snow down in the lower elevations. Stowe was T2B, as was Jay (K-Mart doesn't count b/c their "bottom" is at 2500'). This lack of capacity shows up in a myriad of ways, including lack of beginner terrain for the first few weeks, and limitations on extending the season by building base depths on wide trails like Spring Fling. The issues post a big thaw/freeze cycle should be obvious enough as well.

Anyway, it's a legitimate topic for discuss, but let's please spare the hyperbole on either side.

[Tin Woodsman]

No one was asking for snow making in October. Nor too early in November but the week before opening weekend (which some consider the start of the ski season) might warrant a bit more attention. No one is asking to have had the whole mountain open as everyone likes to jump to that extreme conclusion. Although I do agree your statement of fiscal responsibility has merit and I agree. There is also a responsibility to the clientele who pay for the passes and a middle ground needs to be reached. I'm not asking for millions to be blown away (literally in this case through guns) at the start, but I'm also saying let's not be penny-wise and pound foolish by not pleasing the paying customer. I think that another run would have been prudent for the lower mountain

+1

[Lostone]

But it was 50° up here, two weeks ago.

Remember all those areas making snow to open early, then it went into the 50s and rained? They had to wait until the temps came back down to start up. The plan had been 11/1, but it also had that terrible disclaimer... weather permitting""

But to your larger point, I think everyone wants more terrain. I do. Very few people come to Sugarbush to ski Downspout. They have been working on getting a base the entire time that temps allow. We're at the mercy of Mother Nature.

And we wanted Heaven's Gate to not break down, too. As for the lack of maintenance, I know I've seen them working on all the chairs, throughout the spring, summer and fall. They can't keep things from breaking. If they could, I think they would.

Oh... And I like Carrot Top, too.

[HowieT2]

No one was asking for snow making in October. Nor too early in November but the week before opening weekend (which some consider the start of the ski season) might warrant a bit more attention. No one is asking to have had the whole mountain open as everyone likes to jump to that extreme conclusion. Although I do agree your statement of fiscal responsibility has merit and I agree. There is also a responsibility to the clientele who pay for the passes and a middle ground needs to be reached. I'm not asking for millions to be blown away (literally in this case through guns) at the start, but I'm also saying let's not be penny-wise and pound foolish by not pleasing the paying customer. I think that another run would have been prudent for the lower mountain. Obviously no one else agrees so I stand alone on this one. Regardless as a paying customer I get a say. Your responses about whining and bitching are the type of retorts I'd expect from a 3rd grader. I.e. they have no point other then to provoke and you can't hold an intelligent conversation. Flakeydog at least makes a point which is sound logic.

Also so far I see a lot of people saying "I had a great time on Saturday". Did you ski Sunday? If you did and you skied while HG was down were you not wishing you had more? If you didn't ski Sunday then thanks for your input, but its about as valuable as sand in the desert.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your point that it would have been better to have more terrain open this weekend. It's a rhetorical question. And had I been lucky enough to be able to be there last weekend, I would have been frustrated more by the HG being down for 2 hours then the limited terrain at this time of year. Personally I refrained from comment because I don't know enough about snowmaking/capacity/cost to speak on the issue. I don't think the other mountains in the area had substantially more terrain open (correct me if I'm wrong) last weekend. But to have a real debate we must know the factors that go into the decision.

[2Plankerider]

i beleive we have a bumper sticker in the making

SUGARBUSH Vermont
quityerbitchin'

and saturday was great in my book. it's only gonna get better...

You're doing nobody any favors, least of all Win, by advocating "quiten yer bitchin". It's understandable that there will be differing points of view on this issue, and I think we'd all agree that ensuring SB's long-term viability is a common goal that is shared by anyone who bothered to find this place and register to post in the first place. That said, we certainly can and should have a lively debate with respect to issues like this and the associated questions of investment priorities and competition from other major hills in the area. I wouldn't advocate simply turning on the taps whenever the wet bulb temp dips below 32, and I don't believe anyone else is either. Furthermore, the strategy of deepening base depths and ensuring good cover on Jester/Downspout and OG rather than just adding a shmear to one of them in an attempt to open more terrain elsewhere is also prudent, IMO. So, from my perspective (and I know I'm not alone here), this shines the light on the lack of snowmaking capacity overall, a limitation which really came into focus on Sunday when HG was closed for a spell and 2/3 of the available terrain was off-limits as a result. For a mountain that is as good as SB, which aspires to be among the elite in the Northeast (or already is depending on your POV), that shouldn't be viewed as an acceptable state of affairs. Or if acceptable, certainly far less than optimal, even for opening weekend.

And let's recall that this isn't the first time this issue has arisen. When the Summit Quad was bombarded with crowds two years ago, it was in large part due to the inability to blow snow down in the lower elevations. Stowe was T2B, as was Jay (K-Mart doesn't count b/c their "bottom" is at 2500'). This lack of capacity shows up in a myriad of ways, including lack of beginner terrain for the first few weeks, and limitations on extending the season by building base depths on wide trails like Spring Fling. The issues post a big thaw/freeze cycle should be obvious enough as well.

Anyway, it's a legitimate topic for discuss, but let's please spare the hyperbole on either side.

Tin
i think you may be reading too deep into quityerbitchin' or perhaps misunderstand my point. (i guess a long drawn out thought would be better to some than to sum it up as a joke)
i look at skiing and riding (wherever it may be) as a privledge and an escape from reality (which we all need). I take was is there and use it to the best i can whether it's 1 trail or 100 and am happy about it regardless. Some mountains cater better by offering quality product, and to others it is a numbers game. Who's first to open, who has the most terrain, who has the longest steepest widest trail in the east etc... The current ownership at SB is certainly into providing the product, so to complain about limited terrain on opening weekend ta boot (AND being a POWDER opening) in my book is silly. Lifts break down, it happens. Do i get frustrated? yes, but what are you gonna do about it?
I almost suggested a bumper sticker that reads:
Sugarbush Vermont
Shut up and Ski it.
but thought that was a bit harsh.
quityerbitchin' was paying a compliment to those at SB because they are putting the product out there as best they can, rather than rollong out more trails that are not quite ready. Ask the two knuckleheads trying to poach HG liftline on Saturday how great it was. Looked good from the lift, but with no base, it's crap.
there, i've typed out my drawn out thought, but be prepared for more shorthand in the future and don't look too deep into it next time.

and all of you remember "a bad day on the moutain is better than a good day at work"

[Tin Woodsman]

and all of you remember "a bad day on the moutain is better than a good day at work"

Well at least we can all agree on something.

[Hawk]

I think it is a simple fact that they did the best they could with what they had. This was covered plenty on the other thread about snow making. I also think that it is unrealistic to think that they could have done better. Snowmaking was done on the trails that needed to be opened to get us top to bottom. There was not enough snow to open natural snow trails. I can attest to that first hand. Yup, lock me up and take my pass. If they opened Spills or Ripcord, we would have skied it to dirt in a couple of hours.

You can express your opinions all you want. That is what makes this board great! But I personally thought the skiing was great. I will tell you one thing, It was better than Sunday River the last couple of weekends.

[Dawn Patrol]

The skiing was great. No doubt. Mountain OPs and patrol did a great job, again no doubt. But lowly Mt. Snow had two hundred and fifty guns going... What can we have at any given time at LP? 10? 15? Additional capacity is needed to keep up with the other resorts.

[MntMan4Bush]

I would also agree with your "A bad of skiing then a good day..." and I'd attach a lot more things to the end of it.

However your joke didn't really need the explanation you gave. We got it. The problem was it just wasn't funny. Kind of like comedians using puppets or when Dennis Leary starts singing. (Sorry Dennis - I love your stand up, but put the guitar down) You'd rather people not say anything and be happy with what they have. I love your entrepreneurial spirit and mentality. Skiing is a privilege?? Sure in some regards. Especially if you earn your turns somewhere. However when you pay for something it shifts from privilege to product. Not sure how else I can explain it to you. The idea that they did the best they could may be true as the snow making capacity issue surfaces here, but other mountains (Killington and Mt Snow) had more terrain open so it's not out of the question to wonder why we didn't have as much in similar geography. Since none of us skied there we really can't attest to the quality of their product (i.e. did they open trails just for the count or where they legit). Also since I don't have a season pass at one of the places and instead have one here it shows where my loyalty lies and where I'm willing to make an investment and a commitment. Like any product I invest in I have a vested interest to see it be beter then the rest in all ways. Not just one.

Regardless the weekend is in the books. I was just giving an after action report of my take. If you're happy with one trail then I challenge you to ski that one trail all year and feel as privileged as you claim to be. If you can do that then good for you. You're a better man then I.

[skiladi]

I would also agree with your "A bad of skiing then a good day..." and I'd attach a lot more things to the end of it.

However your joke didn't really need the explanation you gave. We got it. The problem was it just wasn't funny. Kind of like comedians using puppets or when Dennis Leary starts singing. (Sorry Dennis - I love your stand up, but put the guitar down) You'd rather people not say anything and be happy with what they have. I love your entrepreneurial spirit and mentality. Skiing is a privilege?? Sure in some regards. Especially if you earn your turns somewhere. However when you pay for something it shifts from privilege to product. Not sure how else I can explain it to you. The idea that they did the best they could may be true as the snow making capacity issue surfaces here, but other mountains (Killington and Mt Snow) had more terrain open so it's not out of the question to wonder why we didn't have as much in similar geography. Since none of us skied there we really can't attest to the quality of their product (i.e. did they open trails just for the count or where they legit). Also since I don't have a season pass at one of the places and instead have one here it shows where my loyalty lies and where I'm willing to make an investment and a commitment. Like any product I invest in I have a vested interest to see it be beter then the rest in all ways. Not just one.

Regardless the weekend is in the books. I was just giving an after action report of my take. If you're happy with one trail then I challenge you to ski that one trail all year and feel as privileged as you claim to be. If you can do that then good for you. You're a better man then I.

I don't disagree with your pov or you wanting more terrain but I have a different outlook. I have a pass at Sugarbush because I enjoy the overall experience there in comparison to other resorts. It isn't about one day , particularly this early in the season. I went into last weekend with low expectations and was pleasantly surprised. Had I been a daytripper and spent $49 maybe I would feel differently but I pay pretty close attention to weather and conditions before shelling out a whole lot of $. But sometimes things are unavoidable like HG being down.
I worked in recreation myself in my youth. I worked on a charter fishing boat and try as you might to haul in a boatload of fish for your patrons they occasionally went home with just a ride on the ocean. ; {

[bumpcrasher]

Wow!! Lots of bashing of MtnMan4Bush and others for voicing an opinion about the snowmaking. First off, we can all agree that the Bush is one of the best moutains in the East or its likely we would not be skiing there. We can also agree there are many things that the Bush does better than any other mountain.

However, its pretty clear that making a huge QUANTITY of snow is not one of these things. Sometimes that is good-sometimes its bad however, its very rare to see guns going on two seperate areas on Lincoln (ie. Gatehouse or Heaven's Gate/Super Bravo). Sure, someone might be able to pull out a picture from December 2005 where there were snowguns going on Waterfall and Grinder at the same time but I am simply saying that its my observation. Right now, the Bush does not have the firepower in the current system.

It appears one of the initial reasons for the post was to inquire why there was not snowmaking on two seperate areas (ie. Grinder and Spring Fling/lower Super Bravo). It appears that Win and others have pretty much answered the why (in a lot of detail). But to flame someone for bringing it up is bad form.

[Hawk]

You'd rather people not say anything and be happy with what they have.........Skiing is a privilege?? Sure in some regards. Especially if you earn your turns somewhere. However when you pay for something it shifts from privilege to product.

It's not a matter of being happy with what we have, it’s a matter of being realist with what we have. I chose the Bush over Sunday River years ago because of the atmosphere and mostly the natural snow. If I was interested in snow making I would not have made the switch. That was my choice. SV has made a conscious decision to invest in the lodges and the skier services right now and not in snow making. So it is what it is! We do not have the same capacity as the Big K or Mt. Snow and therefore can not blow trails like them. I am not going to waste my time complaining about it and I am sure that SV has put large amounts of thought into the decisions.

Also this whole thing about "privilege to product". I guess you should understand the product you are buying. I don't remeber any snowmaking clauses in the fine print when buying my pass.

It just sounds like little kids nagging their father for something he can't afford.

[MntMan4Bush]

You people are outrageous. I guess I'm just in the wrong. That's all. You're all right. How could it be otherwise.

There are a few of us however who would like to see Sugarbush over shadow the other mountains and take a foothold as #1 in the East all around, but the rest are just happy with what we have. I'm not saying I'm not happy. If I wasn't I wouldn't have bought another season pass here. As with all things we can be better though.

As for privilege vs product maybe it's you who needs a better understanding. I agree there are no clauses about snow making or guarantee of conditions. It's the chance we all take going to the mountain on any given day. However when you pay for a product you have certain expectations. Some of them can be met and some might be unreasonable. My post was to find out why more terrain wasn't open and state that I would have liked to see more especially given the week preceding of cold conditions and that other mountains were able to open more. I think it was a reasonable question. You obviously have a different opinion. It appears however that my answer was given in that we didn't have the ability. See how simple that was? Ask a question and get an answer.

[Hawk]

Alright already! Truce. See you on Spills.

[MntMan4Bush]

Now you're talking.