Sugarbush to Focus on Moguls at Mount Ellen

BMM wrote a great article with some exciting news for mogul enthusiasts:

http://news.alpinezone.com/37398/

Thoughts?

[Hawk]

So are they going to have an actual freestyle team that will compete in competitions or is it just teaching people to ski moguls.

[BushMogulMaster]

So are they going to have an actual freestyle team that will compete in competitions or is it just teaching people to ski moguls.

There already is a competitive freestyle team: Diamond Dogs.

[ski_resort_observer]

So are they going to have an actual freestyle team that will compete in competitions or is it just teaching people to ski moguls.

There already is a competitive freestyle team: Diamond Dogs.

There is also a seasonal freestyle developement program

Free Riders: Freestyle Development Team Ski & Ride - Ages 9-17

For ages 9-17, advanced skiers and riders only, looking to develop their mogul, aerial, park, pipe, and big air skills in a strong team atmosphere, without the cost and stress of competing. Free Rider coaches are highly trained and licensed by the USSA and the USASA...

Diamond Dogs: Freestyle Competition Team Ski & Ride - Ages 9-17 Double Black Diamond
For advanced skiers and riders aged 9-17 years who want to train and compete in bumps, big air, slopestyle, halfpipe, and other freestyle events. The Diamond Dogs is a regionally and nationally competitive freestyle team recognized by the USSA and USASA and competes in both local and regional freestyle series...

Sweet article! So when is your ETA for the winter?

[shadyjay]

BMM wrote a great article with some exciting news for mogul enthusiasts:

http://news.alpinezone.com/37398/

Thoughts?

Now what about those of us who are not mogul enthusiasts because we're on a snowboard, yet have the Mt Ellen pass?

Are they going to destroy perfectly good cruisers by putting bumps on them? I hope not!

Please tell me that they're only going to mogul half the width of the trails that they do mogul. I'd hate to see my favorite mtn destroyed with nothing but skier-loving moguls.

[BushMogulMaster]

BMM wrote a great article with some exciting news for mogul enthusiasts:

http://news.alpinezone.com/37398/

Thoughts?

Now what about those of us who are not mogul enthusiasts because we're on a snowboard, yet have the Mt Ellen pass?

Are they going to destroy perfectly good cruisers by putting bumps on them? I hope not!

Please tell me that they're only going to mogul half the width of the trails that they do mogul. I'd hate to see my favorite mtn destroyed with nothing but skier-loving moguls.

Have no fear, Shadyjay... there'll be plenty of wide open corduroy if that's what you're looking for. But you will definitely see more bumps on some of the lower pitch runs (probably some 1/2 width, we'll see).

SRO... my flight leaves Denver on election day. Flying into Burlington, and will be back in time to vote!

[Lostone]

In answer to your question, Jay, I'm sure they'll have most of the usual suspects as cruisers. No matter what, there is still a larger portion of their market that won't do moguls, for a variety of reasons, than those that do. I can't believe they're about to send them away.

This is not inside info, but just logic.

[BushMogulMaster]

In answer to your question, Jay, I'm sure they'll have most of the usual suspects as cruisers. No matter what, there is still a larger portion of their market that won't do moguls, for a variety of reasons, than those that do. I can't believe they're about to send them away.

This is not inside info, but just logic.

You're right, that this is a large market for cruisers. And those will still be available. But I think you might have missed the point a little. We don't just want to maintain the status-quo market... Mt. Ellen is trying to draw in a new crowd, some new blood. Believe it or not, there is quite a demand for good quality mogul skiing in New England (Mary Jane-esque). Nowhere else in Vermont offers a quality mogul product with terrains for all abilities. How else will folks learn to ski moguls except by offering lower pitch mogul runs?

You have to realize that Sugarbush has always had a ton of mogul runs. Castlerock, Stein's, Ripcord, Mall, Twist, Paradise, FIS, Black Diamond, Exterm, Bravo, Cliffs, Tumbler, Encore, Hammerhead, etc. But what's the common theme there? Black or double black. So we are offering a product that is out of reach for most skiers. By offering lower pitch learning mogul terrain, we will be able to provide the opportunity for folks to progress up to that level.

Bump skiers always whine about bad lines, and bad skiers in their lines. How do you fix that? You provide those people who want to ski bumps with the opportunity to learn.

That's the goal, that's the idea, that's what we're doing this season. See ya in the bumps!

[Lostone]

I'm not trying to run the place, but You will notice that far more people don't ski bumps than those that do.

It isn't a lack of places to ski them. Like you said, there are a ton of trails to ski bumps. They are mostly uncrowded because most people would prefer to ski elsewhere.

You may just think it is a lack of places to ski bumps, but I know it is mostly because they don't want to. That may be because of bad backs, knees, and muscles that don't do much exercise. You might not think much of these people, but they are paying guests.

If you make the non-bump trails too crowded, elsewhere will be another mountain.

Just my opinion, but born out by looking at the trail traffic.

And remember that Killington is trying to get new blood there, too. I just hope we don't make their mistake of getting rid of the former customers before drawing in the new ones.

[HowieT2]

so what trails are going to bumped up that weren't previously?

[shadyjay]

Usual groomers at ME:
-Everything off the Sunny D (of which half is terrain park)
-Straight Shot & Crackerjack
-Cruiser
-Which Way (terrain park)
-Northstar
-Rim Run
-Elbow
-Lookin' Good
-Inverness (racing)
-NR Exp'y
-Northway
-Walt's (natural snow)

What's left, after we also add black/double blacks to the mix (which are usually bumped anyway)?
Semi-Tough

There is already a huge amount of bump runs at the 'Bush compared to other resorts. Other resorts have diamonds that are steep but don't have bumps. Outside of Organgrinder and the Cliffs, there aren't too many options for that. We have everything on Castlerock, which is bumps. The Mall... Steins... Ripcord.... Morning Star.... Tumbler. Hammerhead.... Bravo..... Encore..... FIS ..... Black Diamond. Honestly, folks, how many more bumps do we need?

Lostone brought up some excellent points.... I've talked to many folks on the lifts who don't ride bumps, because of age, past injuries, etc. The bump runs are often quite empty, while Elbow and Rim Run can be high trafficked runs. I don't want to give up Sugarbush as my mountain, but if everything is bumped other than Rim Run and Northstar, then I'm going to be an unhappy camper... especially on those days when only the groomers are skiable/edgeable. Moguls are okay in soft spring snow, but in my opinion, we don't need Mt Ellen turned into an FIS-type profile from top to bottom.

And please... no bumps on the clusterf*!@ that is Mainstream!

[BushMogulMaster]

Lostone, you missed the point again. I'm never said that there aren't enough areas with mogul trails. The point is, there's nowhere to learn. That's the big difference.

It's not a banishing of groomers, or a desire to push out folks who want to ski groomers. It's a desire to help bring back a sport that once had a huge following, and for which a demand still exists. You know why you don't see people in the bumps? Because they're intimidated by the terrain. That's why there needs to be a serious offering of moguls on intermediate terrain. Does that mean Rim, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way (not going to be terrain park, AFAIK), Northstar, Etc. will all be allowed to bump up? No. You may find portions of intermediate runs with moguls.

I assure you you aren't looking at a case where every run on the mountain is wall to wall bumps. But there will be more, and some will be on lower pitch trails.

Come up to Ellen this season, Shadyjay. I'd love to ski with you for the day, and get your opinion after you get to ride the mountain. I think you're putting words in my mouth here. It was never said here or in the article that the whole mountain was going to be moguls. It said the focus is going to be realigned toward moguls and all of the natural aspects of skiing.

And lostone, while I think you've brought up some valid points, I don't see things quite the same way. If you think for a minute that anyone in the operation places a lesser value on folks who just want to ski the cruisers, you're wrong. I think all of us on this forum know that they are a substantial portion of the paying public. No doubt.

But this is a segment of the market that has been ignored for too long. Sure, say what you will... there's plenty of bump runs. But that's not enough. Attention must be paid, proper instruction must be made available (and I don't mean PSIA's bump method). Bump skiers are people too

Why don't many recreational skiers ski bumps? Because they "can't" or because they're afraid. Can that be changed? Yup.

I'm stoked for this season. There will be terrain for everyone. You want cruisers? You'll have them. You want trees? You'll have them. You want bumps? You'll have them. You'll even be able to learn!

It's going to be good, and I don't think anyone will be disappointed.

[HowieT2]

Lostone, you missed the point again. I'm never said that there aren't enough areas with mogul trails. The point is, there's nowhere to learn. That's the big difference.

It's not a banishing of groomers, or a desire to push out folks who want to ski groomers. It's a desire to help bring back a sport that once had a huge following, and for which a demand still exists. You know why you don't see people in the bumps? Because they're intimidated by the terrain. That's why there needs to be a serious offering of moguls on intermediate terrain. Does that mean Rim, Elbow, Cruiser, Which Way (not going to be terrain park, AFAIK), Northstar, Etc. will all be allowed to bump up? No. You may find portions of intermediate runs with moguls.

I assure you you aren't looking at a case where every run on the mountain is wall to wall bumps. But there will be more, and some will be on lower pitch trails.

Come up to Ellen this season, Shadyjay. I'd love to ski with you for the day, and get your opinion after you get to ride the mountain. I think you're putting words in my mouth here. It was never said here or in the article that the whole mountain was going to be moguls. It said the focus is going to be realigned toward moguls and all of the natural aspects of skiing.

And lostone, while I think you've brought up some valid points, I don't see things quite the same way. If you think for a minute that anyone in the operation places a lesser value on folks who just want to ski the cruisers, you're wrong. I think all of us on this forum know that they are a substantial portion of the paying public. No doubt.

But this is a segment of the market that has been ignored for too long. Sure, say what you will... there's plenty of bump runs. But that's not enough. Attention must be paid, proper instruction must be made available (and I don't mean PSIA's bump method). Bump skiers are people too

Why don't many recreational skiers ski bumps? Because they "can't" or because they're afraid. Can that be changed? Yup.

I'm stoked for this season. There will be terrain for everyone. You want cruisers? You'll have them. You want trees? You'll have them. You want bumps? You'll have them. You'll even be able to learn!

It's going to be good, and I don't think anyone will be disappointed.

BMM-I think it's great that there is going be a marketing effort towards bump skiers. Hopefully, that will bring some to the mountain. However, I don't believe you are going to convert the occasional recreational skier to a bump skiing enthusiast. I say this, as someone who, up until about 4 seasons ago, skied between 5-10 days a year. Now that I ski much more frequently, I can and do ski the bumps. While I was an infrequent skier, I dreaded them. The occasional skier, which I believe, is the vast majority, is not going to look forward to skiing bumps on their weekend or week of skiing per year. It takes work and repetition to get to the point where anyone is ready and confident enough to enjoy doing bumps runs. Maybe it's just me.

[freeheel_skier]

BMM-I think it's great that there is going be a marketing effort towards bump skiers. Hopefully, that will bring some to the mountain. However, I don't believe you are going to convert the occasional recreational skier to a bump skiing enthusiast. I say this, as someone who, up until about 4 seasons ago, skied between 5-10 days a year. Now that I ski much more frequently, I can and do ski the bumps. While I was an infrequent skier, I dreaded them. The occasional skier, which I believe, is the vast majority, is not going to look forward to skiing bumps on their weekend or week of skiing per year. It takes work and repetition to get to the point where anyone is ready and confident enough to enjoy doing bumps runs. Maybe it's just me.

Very valid point!

[bill-now]

I agree with BMM that the Bush needs more beginner and intermediate bump runs; however to keep the non-bump skiers happy SB should balance out the distribution of bump runs. I would prefer to see some of the black and double black runs groomed on one side to compensate for the greens and blues "lost" to bumps.

I would love to see beginner trails such as Easy Rider bumped up along one edge; this would give better skiers something on which to amuse themselves when they are hanging out with their beginner friends or young children. It would also give new skiers something to aspire to as they ride the lift.