Sugarbush Cat Skiing

[Hawk]

What makes the pipe that ASC installed lousy? The 1/4" steel pipe that ASC installed is the same 1/4" steel pipe they use now. I think the issues that we are faced with now are related to the aging system in general.

Also I think that this talk about connecting the two mountains with piping was discussed by ASC and then SV and deemed not cost effective. The amount of cubic air you would have to generate or water that you would have to pump to fill the pipes going between the areas is enormous.

It was my understanding that 2 separate systems were and are the only real option. What we need are upgrades! Bigger pumps, more compressors, larger retaining ponds and increased water rights. The first three are just cash outlays. The last one is government and that is always the big problem.

[Tin Woodsman]

What makes the pipe that ASC installed lousy? The 1/4" steel pipe that ASC installed is the same 1/4" steel pipe they use now. I think the issues that we are faced with now are related to the aging system in general.

That's akin to asking what the difference is between a Ferrari and a minivan since they're both vehicles you use to get from Point A to Point B. Not all steel piping for snowmaking, and the installation therein, is the same. Since most of the money went in during the mid-90s, we're not really talking about an aging system as these things go.

Also I think that this talk about connecting the two mountains with piping was discussed by ASC and then SV and deemed not cost effective. The amount of cubic air you would have to generate or water that you would have to pump to fill the pipes going between the areas is enormous.

It was my understanding that 2 separate systems were and are the only real option.

I hadn't heard/seen this. Last I saw was something from either Win or maybe BMM that talked about the limitations in place at North and that connecting the systems may be necessary to remedy it. But tht was a while ago and I coul dbe "misremembering". If it's off the table, then upgrades are certainly needed.

[BushMogulMaster]

What makes the pipe that ASC installed lousy? The 1/4" steel pipe that ASC installed is the same 1/4" steel pipe they use now. I think the issues that we are faced with now are related to the aging system in general.

That's akin to asking what the difference is between a Ferrari and a minivan since they're both vehicles you use to get from Point A to Point B. Not all steel piping for snowmaking, and the installation therein, is the same. Since most of the money went in during the mid-90s, we're not really talking about an aging system as these things go.

Also I think that this talk about connecting the two mountains with piping was discussed by ASC and then SV and deemed not cost effective. The amount of cubic air you would have to generate or water that you would have to pump to fill the pipes going between the areas is enormous.

It was my understanding that 2 separate systems were and are the only real option.

I hadn't heard/seen this. Last I saw was something from either Win or maybe BMM that talked about the limitations in place at North and that connecting the systems may be necessary to remedy it. But tht was a while ago and I coul dbe "misremembering". If it's off the table, then upgrades are certainly needed.

Mt. Ellen has a decent capacity by itself. In fact, prior to ASC's enhancements, ME's snowmaking system was quite a bit better than LP's. However, the feed lines to ME's pumps are in fact aging, and will need some TLC if the system were to be expanded in the future. ME can pump enough out of its retention pond alone to run a trail without issue, and most of that infrastructure is okay.

Consider, also, that ME is opening later and closing earlier. Therefore, the snowmaking demand is substantially less than in the past. In a good snow year, very very little snow would have to be made. Only main thoroughfares and high-wear areas would need snowmaking. In a bad snow year, you still only have to make enough snow to last for the 3 1/2 month season.

If Win ever decides to make a significant investment in snowmaking in the future, it would be illogical not to consider ductile iron piping. More up-front investment, but lasts more than 400% long and is 10000000000X easier to install. No electrolysis, and nice easy couplings (no welding) mean better pipe, easier maintenance, longer lifespan. It's a no-brainer if you can come up with the initial capital.

[Tin Woodsman]

Mt. Ellen has a decent capacity by itself. In fact, prior to ASC's enhancements, ME's snowmaking system was quite a bit better than LP's. However, the feed lines to ME's pumps are in fact aging, and will need some TLC if the system were to be expanded in the future. ME can pump enough out of its retention pond alone to run a trail without issue, and most of that infrastructure is okay.
Consider, also, that ME is opening later and closing earlier. Therefore, the snowmaking demand is substantially less than in the past. In a good snow year, very very little snow would have to be made. Only main thoroughfares and high-wear areas would need snowmaking. In a bad snow year, you still only have to make enough snow to last for the 3 1/2 month season.

If Win ever decides to make a significant investment in snowmaking in the future, it would be illogical not to consider ductile iron piping. More up-front investment, but lasts more than 400% long and is 10000000000X easier to install. No electrolysis, and nice easy couplings (no welding) mean better pipe, easier maintenance, longer lifespan. It's a no-brainer if you can come up with the initial capital.

Interesting stuff. With respect to the portion I bolded above, can you elaborate? What you've written doesn't sound impressive to me. I'm mainly thinking about the ability to recover from thaw/freeze cycles where you need to be able to light it up en masse when the front comes through and temps turn favorable. This is an area where SB seems lacking. If LP is going to be the early/late season hill, then a robust system to build base depths and rapidly increase trail counts is what's needed. Is that what's there? Anecdotally, SB seems to open terrain noticeably more slowly than their key competitors. What are the bottlenecks, aside from money?

[BushMogulMaster]

Interesting stuff. With respect to the portion I bolded above, can you elaborate? What you've written doesn't sound impressive to me. I'm mainly thinking about the ability to recover from thaw/freeze cycles where you need to be able to light it up en masse when the front comes through and temps turn favorable. This is an area where SB seems lacking. If LP is going to be the early/late season hill, then a robust system to build base depths and rapidly increase trail counts is what's needed. Is that what's there? Anecdotally, SB seems to open terrain noticeably more slowly than their key competitors. What are the bottlenecks, aside from money?

Not sure exactly what you're looking for. Pumping capacity is limited by water flow and availability. What I said with respect to ME is that one pump station at the retention pond is probably capable of outputting enough water to run 15-20 guns, depending on temps and flow at the hydrants (I'm not sure of exact numbers, but that is based on flow into the pond and my best assumption of the output of that pumping station). There is additional infrastructure and pumping capacity, but it is pumping from a different source off the mountain. I guess I was just pointing out that, even with no other help, we can blow a trail or two just out of the retention pond. ME also has substantial control and air infrastructure. It's a decent system.

SB has a fair amount of snowmaking capacity as it sits, the system could just use some tweaking. Snowmaking can be a great asset, but it can also be a huge waste of money if managed improperly. I think the mountain has done a decent job of balancing it. There is plenty of snow where we need it, but we don't go and blow hundred dollar bills out the nozzles when it is unnecessary.

[ski_resort_observer]

Well, the new cat is parked just behind the the granite statue guy for all to see. It sure looks purty and hope you guys are up this weekend so you can check it out and kick the tires...I mean tread. Should be on the website soon if you can't make it. Lostone said he took like 500 pictures of it but........

[Lostone]

Knock knock the door shall be opened.
Ask ask and ye shall receive.










Funny... I don't remember saying I got 500 pix of them tho...

[Sail or Ski]

Look at the teeth on that tread.............Nice .....

For a lostone you sure do get around.

[Lostone]

I get around because . . . I'm lost?

[ski_resort_observer]

I think the inside of the Bush's new "Cabin Cat" is just as amazing as the outside. For those who haven't been up yet to check it out here is a pic of the inside. It's Sandy's shot and he gave me permission to post it in here, sorry for the crappy scan.

[madhavok]

I think the inside of the Bush's new "Cabin Cat" is just as amazing as the outside. For those who haven't been up yet to check it out here is a pic of the inside. It's Sandy's shot and he gave me permission to post it in here, sorry for the crappy scan.

Better version of the picture right on Sugarbush.com

http://www.sugarbush.com/vermont-ski.../groomer-rides

[ahm]

Wonder how many dawn patrol poachers will hit the terrain before the kitty every gets to the top............only time will tell.

[ski_resort_observer]

I think the inside of the Bush's new "Cabin Cat" is just as amazing as the outside. For those who haven't been up yet to check it out here is a pic of the inside. It's Sandy's shot and he gave me permission to post it in here, sorry for the crappy scan.

Better version of the picture right on Sugarbush.com

http://www.sugarbush.com/vermont-ski.../groomer-rides

Thanks...much better version....wasn't on the site yesterday when I checked or I missed it.

[gone.skiing]

Is there a one way option for $15?

[bullwheel12]

i'm tired of sugarbush being turned into an elite retirement community. Yeah, lets clear some trees and make the woods easier to ski...oh and lets make easy accessible side country even more easily accessible...(if you have money that is)!!! If you can't get into slidebrook using your own two feet then you shouldn't be there. It's that simple.