Snow Making???

[Bubba]

Well, there you have it. I really hope that explanation is sufficient for all you know-it-all armchair ski resort operators. Here's a novel idea: let's try to post more trip reports, pics and videos here and less whining.




Bingo!

[Hawk]

GMP is our source of electricity, and they can curtail us on any given day which they normally do when temperatures are very cold.

Win, the restrictions don't seem fair. You guys are their biggest client in the valley and you don't get any benefit it seems. Hell you had to plow them out last year because they couldn't even do that.

Has anybody looked into the cost/benefit of building a generator plant at the base? I know you guys don't like to burn diesel but at least you have control over your own destiny. I have built a couple generator plants and one of the big benefits is you can sell the power at peak times back to the grid. I'm sure that it has been discussed. Just my 2 cents.

[MntMan4Bush]

Greg and Bubba, as much as I appreciate your attempts to stifle my questions while you sit back smugly, this forum has worked because people ask questions and state their opinions instead of taking a spin on the bandwagon. As much as I may seem like an armchair Operation manager to you, to Sugarbush I am a customer and my opinion matters just as much as yours or anyone else's. Last year I got in 30 days which may not be as much as others, but certainly I'm not a horrible customer when you add in all the beer I drink so I would think SB would be inclined to hear what I say. Now if it's OK with you I'll continue........

Thanks Win for candidly answering my questions. I can understand about power restrictions imposed on you by GMP. However blowing at night should have an advantage because there's less drain on the grid. You probably do this already and it no news to you. My question I guess is in general I feel that SB blows significantly less then other mountains. I used my observations from last weekend as an example, and perhaps it wasn't such a good one. There have been several other weekends this year (though given all the natural not too many) and over years past where I've questioned why the Bush hasn't been blowing away while other mountains were. This may be also an observation on what is budgeted for as well and not just what operationally happens. Now Sugarbush is far superior then other mountains in so many aspects in my mind, but I think this is one area we are behind in. Maybe I just can't see all the effort put in to snow making. Do you have any data on this? Am I completely off base? I have a Killing-me-a-ton convert in my house who constantly brings up how much snow they blow (and obviously a lot of money is "blown" as well) and I cant argue that perception.

With regard to the SBX again perhaps my use of last weekend as an example wasn't the best, although without being able to shift some of the crowd its absence was certainly noticed. Two or three weekends before it was down until about 2 in the afternoon. (And obviously at the beginning of the season due to those issues). Two (or three again) weekends ago there was a lot of snow in the woods and it was very warm. Is there an issue with the SBX and that's why it hasn't been regularly running or has it been a SB choice not to and are we going to see less of it this season. Again it could just be my perception.

Again my intention is just to get some answers to questions I have and have heard others voice (if that's OK with some of you that is..... ) I champion the Bush to everyone I talk to that skis (and many who don't........yet!!!) So when I hear these questions repeated by others I share the responses and do my best to put a positive spin on it. The more people who ski the Bush the better for all of us because it's more money coming into the mountain and we'll continue to see improvements made. I just want to see the Bush doing the best it can and have the best draw. Heck I rarely ski groomers and the non-natural trails so it isn't even for my benefit. I'm just asking a 3 letter question...why.

Now I'll just go back to my nice comfy armchair. It's what I do while not skiing. Don't worry. I also questioned why on 3rd and long Brady went to Moss when Welker was wide open in the flat and why the person who named hedgehogs chose that nomenclature. I've certainly never seen one in a hedge. I might have named it a spiky hog. I don't believe that names taken. I've also always questioned why gas stations charge you 9/10ths of a cent. I mean seriously. If I buy exactly a gallon of gas at 3.33 and 9/10 they charge me 3.34. Where's my 1/10th of a cent huh? I've been robbed my whole life. It's infuriating. Oops. Sorry to question the machine. I'll just step back in line and enjoy this nice cup of Kool-aid.

Greg and Bubba, as much as I appreciate your attempts to stifle my questions while you sit back smugly, this forum has worked because people ask questions and state their opinions instead of taking a spin on the bandwagon. As much as I may seem like an armchair Operation manager to you, to Sugarbush I am a customer and my opinion matters just as much as yours or anyone else's. Last year I got in 30 days which may not be as much as others, but certainly I'm not a horrible customer when you add in all the beer I drink so I would think SB would be inclined to hear what I say. Now if it's OK with you I'll continue........

Knock yourself out. I'm not trying to stifle criticism as long as it's constructive. It just seems to me the trivial complaining here is on the rise. A few weeks back, it was about some signs with advertising, which in retrospect, I honestly didn't even notice on Friday. One argument there was that SB runs the risk of becoming just like those "other" ski areas to the south. Now SB is not enough like those same ski areas because it doesn't pump out the same amount of snow?

When I was there on Friday, I didn't get the impression the snowmaking trails had inadequate coverage. In fact, the whales on Sleeper and Birch Run were pretty impressive and of great quality, but like you, I didn't spend much time on the snowmaking trails. I guess when you ski the place 30 times a year or every weekend, you have the time and luxury to nitpick. I only get up a few times a year so when I do, I'm just there to ski. Just different perspectives, I guess. Personally, I would have rather looked at some pics from your runs on Twist while I drank my Kool-Aid, but like BMM stated earlier, you just can't please everybody...

[boze]

Sounds like we need some vodka in that Kool aid to help everyone relax a bit. No need to be pissy towards MM4B.

Folks on the board, by that fact alone, demonstrate they care.

It was just MLK weekend right? R-E-S-P-E-C-T. And I happen to know Aretha loves POW.

Sounds like we need some vodka in that Kool aid to help everyone relax a bit. No need to be pissy towards MM4B.

Folks on the board, by that fact alone, demonstrate they care.

Not being pissy. I just don't have to agree with all the constant issues people seem to come up with. I have the right to challenge the complainers as much as they have the right to complain. Pretty much all summer on AZ there were countless whiny threads on how screwed up Killington is, blah, blah, blah. Everybody thinks they're an expert and has it all figured out when in reality we're mostly just a bunch of casual observers and have very little Industry experience. In fact, Win takes the time to chime in here with a very detailed and sensible explanation and it's still not good enough. Amazing.

[bumpcrasher]

Let's call it like we see it....a good example of a "trivial" complaint certainly was the gripping about a sign at Super Bravo advertising units for Claybrook and hot chocolate. Saying that this one sign was a slippery slope leading to Vegas-style billboards on the Gap Roads was a big stretch. However, to say snowmaking is "trivial" is also a big stretch.

Snowmaking is obviously more important to the mountain than whether there is one sign at a lift telling people about lift closures. Truth is, like many mountains, there are some good things and there are bad things. In my humble opinion, overall, the bush is better than anywhere else in the east. Does this mean that I can't think to myself....hey, Jay has great glades, K-Mart make a lot of snow, MRG has no snowboarders (let the fists fly on that one!). Based on my experiences in the last 10 years, I have also thought that the bush does not make as much snow as some mountains. Skiing this weekend, I too expected to see more man-made snow. Does this mean I should not wonder why or whether that is true?

This board is great for bringing up these issues and its better to put voice to a legitimate concern (ie. snowmaking) and have it addressed. Its not "whining or complaining" for MM4B or anyone else to ask why the mountain does one thing or another. In fact, if people did not ask these kinds of questions, the board would be relatively boring. And I assume, everyone agrees that it is excellent to have Win take time to post here.

[BushMogulMaster]

The cost of electricity is clearly a significant factor in snowmaking decisions and in the operating costs of the Mtn. One would have to say that these costs are much more likely to get worse in the future then better. I certainly would never want to see a giant windmill anywhere near SB. However, is it feasible and/or advantageous to place small windmills on the lift towers? There are a lot of lift towers and if you combine lots of little windmills maybe they could generate enough power to make it worth it.

Actually, something that ski resorts are starting to get into to help offset snowmaking cost is micro-hydro. They use mountain brooks and even snowmaking water return lines to generate a small amount of electricity. It certainly doesn't cover nearly what it takes to make snow, but it's just one step in the right direction. I think this is something that Win/Sugarbush might be able to make use of, especially at Mt. Ellen by the snowmaking pond. One micro-hydro setup where the brook comes into the pond, and one at the outlet. Then you can also throw a small setup on the water return line (I'm assuming the whole system isn't a dead-head system). It's a good environmental move, it helps a little with the electricity bill, and it's good PR.

[Fourwide]

I thought the snow on the groomers was outstanding last weekend. The base was firm, but not icy, and the surface was quite edgeable. Snowmaking--Birch, Sleeper and Steins were outrageous! I don't remember Birch skiing as well as it did Mon. a.m., and the left side of Steins was excellent (after the slide down the headwall). I did think upper OG could have used some snow. Blowing snow on Downspout (Sunday, I think) was pretty hilarious! I appreciate the views of those advocating much more snowblowing, but I really thought the conditions were quite good, given the cold, and I take Win's point re. how many guests (especially intermediate skiers) react to snowblowing (not favorably--clearing everyone's goggles every 50 ft!).

Let's call it like we see it....a good example of a "trivial" complaint certainly was the gripping about a sign at Super Bravo advertising units for Claybrook and hot chocolate. Saying that this one sign was a slippery slope leading to Vegas-style billboards on the Gap Roads was a big stretch. However, to say snowmaking is "trivial" is also a big stretch.

Snowmaking is obviously more important to the mountain than whether there is one sign at a lift telling people about lift closures. Truth is, like many mountains, there are some good things and there are bad things. In my humble opinion, overall, the bush is better than anywhere else in the east. Does this mean that I can't think to myself....hey, Jay has great glades, K-Mart make a lot of snow, MRG has no snowboarders (let the fists fly on that one!). Based on my experiences in the last 10 years, I have also thought that the bush does not make as much snow as some mountains. Skiing this weekend, I too expected to see more man-made snow. Does this mean I should not wonder why or whether that is true?

This board is great for bringing up these issues and its better to put voice to a legitimate concern (ie. snowmaking) and have it addressed. Its not "whining or complaining" for MM4B or anyone else to ask why the mountain does one thing or another. In fact, if people did not ask these kinds of questions, the board would be relatively boring. And I assume, everyone agrees that it is excellent to have Win take time to post here.

Well said. I guess the only reason I even chimed in here was that it wasn't apparent to me that the snowmaking trails had inadequate cover. Not by a long shot. If the resort feels they can offer a good product for the MLK weekend with the coverage they have, then I'm fine with that decision. I guess part of the argument is that it was cold so snow should inherently be being made; somewhere. I guess I can understand that POV. However, I have faith that Win and co. are proceeding in a direction that's in the resort's best interest. After all, they are the experts. Personally, I would rather they have some additional budget to resurface after some potential warm-up than to just see them making snow on a closed Sunrise during the MLK weekend. As others already mentioned, snowmaking on open trails is going to be met with mixed reviews. Some folks don't care and others will.

This board would also be relatively boring if some of us didn't chime in to challenge these "issues" and stir the pot from time to time. Funny how my POV is instantly labeled Kool-Aid drinking and I'm the bad guy for simply trying to provide a different perspective.

BTW, except for MRG, SB is the only mountains in Vermont that is 100% open right now. They're making plenty of snow...

[Yard Sale]

I thought the snow on the groomers was outstanding last weekend. The base was firm, but not icy, and the surface was quite edgeable. Snowmaking--Birch, Sleeper and Steins were outrageous! I don't remember Birch skiing as well as it did Mon. a.m., and the left side of Steins was excellent (after the slide down the headwall). I did think upper OG could have used some snow. Blowing snow on Downspout (Sunday, I think) was pretty hilarious! I appreciate the views of those advocating much more snowblowing, but I really thought the conditions were quite good, given the cold, and I take Win's point re. how many guests (especially intermediate skiers) react to snowblowing (not favorably--clearing everyone's goggles every 50 ft!).

I agree.

[MntMan4Bush]

I'm glad my Kool-Aid comment has gotten so much replay here. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but it seems to me you're always ready to jump in line and say every thing's great the way it is, which I would agree with, but where I differ with you is that by your reaction it seems you think it couldn't be made better. Now perhaps I'm mis-interpreting and if I am then stop here because I apologize. My bad. Otherwise if I read correctly I think there is always room for improvement and it is those that continually strive for excellence who have the best chance of one day achieving it. It's often times not the "expert" that see changes that need to be made or paves the way, but the casual observer or someone from the outside. You often get so caught up in your own vision that you miss things when you're an "expert". Now I will say that since Win has been in the hot seat things have been great at the Bush and I think he makes decisions with the whole MRV and his customers in mind and not just his pocket like prior owners may have. This is a sign of great leadership, as is listening to different points of view, ideas and criticisms. It doesn't mean he has to change because of them or even respond (though I'm certainly glad he does), but it would irresponsible of us to not point out areas for PERCEIVED improvement. In the end he's got the facts and figures in front of him and will make the final call. As I said before I wasn't the only one noticing this for this season and seasons past, but perhaps I was the first to voice it.

Now on to happier thoughts. As soon as we get a proper cam going I'd be happy to post up some runs down Twist. I love sitting here in my armchair...errrr...desk and seeing people ski. Makes me a bit jealous, but reminds me of what is in my near future.

I'm glad my Kool-Aid comment has gotten so much replay here. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but it seems to me you're always ready to jump in line and say every thing's great the way it is, which I would agree with, but where I differ with you is that by your reaction it seems you think it couldn't be made better. Now perhaps I'm mis-interpreting and if I am then stop here because I apologize. My bad. Otherwise if I read correctly I think there is always room for improvement and it is those that continually strive for excellence who have the best chance of one day achieving it. It's often times not the "expert" that see changes that need to be made or paves the way, but the casual observer or someone from the outside. You often get so caught up in your own vision that you miss things when you're an "expert". Now I will say that since Win has been in the hot seat things have been great at the Bush and I think he makes decisions with the whole MRV and his customers in mind and not just his pocket like prior owners may have. This is a sign of great leadership, as is listening to different points of view, ideas and criticisms. It doesn't mean he has to change because of them or even respond (though I'm certainly glad he does), but it would irresponsible of us to not point out areas for PERCEIVED improvement. In the end he's got the facts and figures in front of him and will make the final call. As I said before I wasn't the only one noticing this for this season and seasons past, but perhaps I was the first to voice it.

Fair enough.

Now on to happier thoughts. As soon as we get a proper cam going I'd be happy to post up some runs down Twist. I love sitting here in my armchair...errrr...desk and seeing people ski. Makes me a bit jealous, but reminds me of what is in my near future.

Sweet! Looking forward to them! Not sure if you saw it, but this was my foray on Friday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y9I1S28L0I

Let's get the stoke going!!!

[ski_resort_observer]

when you add in all the beer I drink so I would think SB would be inclined to hear what I say.

With regard to the SBX again perhaps my use of last weekend as an example wasn't the best, although without being able to shift some of the crowd its absence was certainly noticed. Two or three weekends before it was down until about 2 in the afternoon. (And obviously at the beginning of the season due to those issues). Two (or three again) weekends ago there was a lot of snow in the woods and it was very warm. Is there an issue with the SBX and that's why it hasn't been regularly running or has it been a SB choice not to and are we going to see less of it this season. Again it could just be my perception.
.

the beer comment tells me you have not lost your sense of humor....

Believe it or not the Bush wants to run the SBX when it's scheduled as much, maybe be even more, than the guests, like yourself, want it running. Matter of fact, early this past Sat morning a manager went out to do a stick check along the SBX in the very slight chance we could run it with all the safety precautions covered. He came back with a very red face from the cold and found out what everybody pretty much already knew, not enough base.

I love the SBX, it's one of those lifts which just the ride alone is alot of fun. I know it's not nearly as convenient but I often take the shuttle over to LP as I always park at Mellen and I always like skiing a few of my favs over at LP the few times I get out for a full day. Bottom line is that it will be running ASAP.

Running the lifts with diesel power like all the resorts used to do is not an option anymore with Vermont's restrictions on CO2 emissions. Perhaps with the use of biodiesel this might change in the future as a viable supplement. I also think electrical use goes up in the evening until the wee hours when we all go to sleep.

[Tin Woodsman]

Sounds like we need some vodka in that Kool aid to help everyone relax a bit. No need to be pissy towards MM4B.

Folks on the board, by that fact alone, demonstrate they care.

Not being pissy. I just don't have to agree with all the constant issues people seem to come up with. I have the right to challenge the complainers as much as they have the right to complain. Pretty much all summer on AZ there were countless whiny threads on how screwed up Killington is, blah, blah, blah. Everybody thinks they're an expert and has it all figured out when in reality we're mostly just a bunch of casual observers and have very little Industry experience. In fact, Win takes the time to chime in here with a very detailed and sensible explanation and it's still not good enough. Amazing.

What's amazing is that anyone would not only take the word of an interested party as gospel, but would also chide others for questioning same.

1) Slidebrook - No complaints from me on the closure this weekend. Anyone who is even a casual observer of the snowpack beyond the trails knows that it's pretty bony at the lower elevations where the sled roads are. Moreover, both the sled access policy and the cold weather policy are not only based on legitimate safety concerns, they are policies that have been discussed in detail on this site since Win forst began participating. I'm not sure how anyone could argue with that, as disappointing as it may be not to have the SBX running on a busy holiday weekend.

2) Snowmaking - Lots of Kool-Aid being drunk here. Many kudos go out to Win and his team for making the effort to recover from a truly awful thaw. The conditions on those trails where snow had been made were definitely enjoyable and better than expected. No one is arguing this. What is troubling here is the effort to stifle what are legitimate criticisms of fundamentally critical mountain operations issues impacting just about everyone who skis at SB.


Fact: The mountain made no snow during the day on Saturday at LP.

Fact: Many skiers have no problem with, or even prefer, skiing runs where snowmaking is ongoing. The hordes descending Stein's on Sunday illustrate this clearly. This is even more the case when the snowmaking is on runs like Steins, Sunrise, Exterminator or others that aren't liftlines or high capacity runs (e.g. Jester and Downspout) where people can make an informed choice to take or not.

Fact: SB has the ability and infrastructure to make snow on Sunrise and has done so as recently as last year

Fact: Win's post spoke only to the general issues SB faces when making decisions about electrical purchases for snowmaking, and not to the specific choices or decisions made over this weekend. With respect to snowmaking, or lack thereof, on MLK weekend 2008, there is has been little information imparted.

Is it possible that SB was unable to expand its snowmaking efforts on Sunday and Monday in a commercially reasonable fashion b/c it was so cold? Possibly - though we don't know all the facts on this. What we do know was that it was cold enough to make snow efficiently (though not so cold that the draw on GMP would be out of the ordinary) on most of the mountain (talking about LP here - didn't make it to ME) on Saturday and nothing was made. No building of base depths. No resurfacing of heavy traffic areas.

Win doesn't owe me or anyone else an explanation for decisions made for commercial reasons, but surely this site is not supposed to simply be a mouthpiece for mountain management. My understanding of the purpose of this forum is to discuss all aspects of SB and its operations, the MRV as a whole, and whatever else seems to make sense. If this site is supposed to be limited solely to happy fun time trip reports and "atta boys", it will make for pretty boring reading. Quite frankly, most of the negative stuff I've heard of through various means never makes it on here, so let's not pretend that me or anyone else is focused on the negative. This attitude would imply that the posters on this site should act like lobotomized Stepford wives, dutifully following the company line - how DARE we question what the company line is! How DARE us flatlanders actually have an opinion on the skiing experience!

It's funny, really. When we talk about non-skiing stuff (ads, etc..) we are chided for not focusing on the skiing. When we talk about skiing stuff, we are chided for accentuating the negative. Are all decisions made by the mtn beyond reproach? Should I avoid starting topics to discuss the fact that when SB was on total windhold in December, they actually tried to charge people $15 for the right to skin up to mid-mountain? Should I avoid starting topics discussing the various and sundry backchannel posts I've received from insiders detailing the many shortcoming of the Low-E guns?

Let's be clear - Win and his team are the best thing to happen to Sugarbush in a long, long time. It's hard to argue that point. But I assure you that their farts do smell and they do make mistakes.