Grooming... grrr!

[BushMogulMaster]

Groomers hit 27 trails overnight, including a rarely groomed Castlerock Run.

Why??? Why, I say???

That's twice this year for C-Rock run.

Since February, I've noticed quite an increase in grooming of typical bump trails, including (but not limited to) FIS, Lower FIS, Exterminator, Encore, Semi-Tough, Twist, Stein's, Ripcord, etc. What gives? I have a pretty significant knowledge of grooming operations and snow surfaces, and I understand that there have been occasions when grooming a bump run has been necessary. But this year, it's been getting out of hand. FIS, Exterminator, and Encore were all completely ruined the first time they were groomed. FIS never recovered (skiers' right held the only decent line), Exterm took over a month to come back, and Encore was crap since it was groomed. Lower FIS wasn't the same, and Semi-Tough never recovered. In most cases, there was not a valid reason (dangerously icy bumps, a huge dump in the forecast, etc.) to groom these trails. I just don't understand it.

I'm sure some will disagree, but from my experience, grooming a bump run (especially when the snow is frozen-granular) is the best way to ruin it unless a large snowfall is expected (and 12" isn't large... I mean 18+").


Now... I don't just want to be another complaining idiot... the snow is amazing right now, and I can't wait for another powder day Thursday/Friday. I'm very pleased with 95% of this season's skiing experience at the Bush. I'm quite pleased with much of what Win etc. have accomplished. Now it's just the little things that I'm picking apart

[noski]

Now... I don't just want to be another complaining idiot...

What kind of idiot would you rather be?

[HowieT2]

Groomers hit 27 trails overnight, including a rarely groomed Castlerock Run.

Why??? Why, I say???

That's twice this year for C-Rock run.

Since February, I've noticed quite an increase in grooming of typical bump trails, including (but not limited to) FIS, Lower FIS, Exterminator, Encore, Semi-Tough, Twist, Stein's, Ripcord, etc. What gives? I have a pretty significant knowledge of grooming operations and snow surfaces, and I understand that there have been occasions when grooming a bump run has been necessary. But this year, it's been getting out of hand. FIS, Exterminator, and Encore were all completely ruined the first time they were groomed. FIS never recovered (skiers' right held the only decent line), Exterm took over a month to come back, and Encore was crap since it was groomed. Lower FIS wasn't the same, and Semi-Tough never recovered. In most cases, there was not a valid reason (dangerously icy bumps, a huge dump in the forecast, etc.) to groom these trails. I just don't understand it.

I'm sure some will disagree, but from my experience, grooming a bump run (especially when the snow is frozen-granular) is the best way to ruin it unless a large snowfall is expected (and 12" isn't large... I mean 18+").


Now... I don't just want to be another complaining idiot... the snow is amazing right now, and I can't wait for another powder day Thursday/Friday. I'm very pleased with 95% of this season's skiing experience at the Bush. I'm quite pleased with much of what Win etc. have accomplished. Now it's just the little things that I'm picking apart

I don't know enough to constructively comment on this issue, but it is apparent that you know what you are talking about (whether you are right is a different issue) and you shouldn't be shy about airing your opinions because of what transpired with the complaining some weeks ago. I will say that Moonshine was groomed recently and it was great to ski it on sunday and Monday.

[gone.skiing]

Since you specifically mention Castlerock... First time it was groomed was also before significant snow storm. Right after that storm it was awesome. I also skied it a bunch since then and did not hear any complaints about it.

Another reason they may have done it could be to give a chance to ski the chair to peeps who otherwise would not go.

[asland]

[quote="BushMogulMaster"]

Since February, I've noticed quite an increase in grooming of typical bump trails, including (but not limited to) FIS, Lower FIS, Exterminator, Encore, Semi-Tough, Twist, Stein's, Ripcord, etc. What gives? I have a pretty significant knowledge of grooming operations and snow surfaces, and I understand that there have been occasions when grooming a bump run has been necessary. But this year, it's been getting out of hand.
I'm sure some will disagree, but from my experience, grooming a bump run (especially when the snow is frozen-granular) is the best way to ruin it unless a large snowfall is expected (and 12" isn't large... I mean 18+").

I love skiing a great line of soft corn bumps but...

This past weekend the best skiing was on trails that were relatively flattened out and had a bunch of fresh pow on top (liftline on castlerock and ripcord). You could really let it rip big mountain gs style turns. close to bowl type skiing. Those trails that had bumps on it (paradise, castlerock...) had really hard bumps underneath lots of good snow. Skiiers really had to slow down and pick there way through. With another storm on it's way, even a small storm, I think it's a good strategy to groom.

side benefits -

1. more evenly spread snow, lets say 18" base is has better staying power when it gets warm than a bumped up trail that has 30" at the bumps and only 12" between the bumps. The 12" melts fast and you start getting brown spots.

2. when it's cold at night and in the day (as it's been) those bumps never get soft.

3. rant warning - plus all those guys and gals skiing the super fat powder skis, because it's trendy, end up sliding into the bumps sideways, squaring them off, and ruining the flow and the line for everyone else. For christ sake get a little shape in your eastern ski for everyone else's sake. That way the mt can avoid having to groom the ruined bump run to start all over.

so, in moderation a good grooming can be a good thing.

asland

[BushMogulMaster]

[quote="asland"]

Since February, I've noticed quite an increase in grooming of typical bump trails, including (but not limited to) FIS, Lower FIS, Exterminator, Encore, Semi-Tough, Twist, Stein's, Ripcord, etc. What gives? I have a pretty significant knowledge of grooming operations and snow surfaces, and I understand that there have been occasions when grooming a bump run has been necessary. But this year, it's been getting out of hand.
I'm sure some will disagree, but from my experience, grooming a bump run (especially when the snow is frozen-granular) is the best way to ruin it unless a large snowfall is expected (and 12" isn't large... I mean 18+").

I love skiing a great line of soft corn bumps but...

This past weekend the best skiing was on trails that were relatively flattened out and had a bunch of fresh pow on top (liftline on castlerock and ripcord). You could really let it rip big mountain gs style turns. close to bowl type skiing. Those trails that had bumps on it (paradise, castlerock...) had really hard bumps underneath lots of good snow. Skiiers really had to slow down and pick there way through. With another storm on it's way, even a small storm, I think it's a good strategy to groom.

side benefits -

1. more evenly spread snow, lets say 18" base is has better staying power when it gets warm than a bumped up trail that has 30" at the bumps and only 12" between the bumps. The 12" melts fast and you start getting brown spots.

2. when it's cold at night and in the day (as it's been) those bumps never get soft.

3. rant warning - plus all those guys and gals skiing the super fat powder skis, because it's trendy, end up sliding into the bumps sideways, squaring them off, and ruining the flow and the line for everyone else. For christ sake get a little shape in your eastern ski for everyone else's sake. That way the mt can avoid having to groom the ruined bump run to start all over.

so, in moderation a good grooming can be a good thing.

asland

I definitely see your point, and understand everything that you've said. However, as I alluded to earlier, I am not only referring to this particular grooming. It just rekindled my frustration with excess grooming. There are definitely times when a good grooming is necessary, but it's been overdone this year.

As far as being able to rip GS turns... that's not my thing anyway. I'll take semi-hard bumps with powder on top any day over GS turns! And, by the way, I ski on bump skis which are practically straight. So your comment about shaped skis is a bit off base

[Plowboy]

I think it's the very short shaped skis that are ruining the bumps. my .02

[Strat]

I think it's snowboards that are ruining the bumps... that said, it's a fun challenge for me and my single-planker brethren... took Paradise for the first time this weekend... did I unnecessarily smack a few bumps? Mmhmm... but at the same time I was working on my technique and trying to be more fluid...

Damn crazy trail. Woods off to the left are nutso also.

[MntMan4Bush]

Hmm. I've got nice fat powder skis that I absolutely love and I definitely do not flatten bumps. As BMM pointed out good bump skis don't have much shape, but are straighter. Mine just happen to be fatter as well where bump skis are more pinners. Bottom line I'm pretty sure, without bragging too much, that I ski bumps pretty well and do little to destroy them. It's less to do with the skis (although as Plowboy pointed out really short skis do have some effect) and more to do with the skier/boarder. If your technique is to treat bumps like you're in a groomer you're going to do some damage.

As far as opinion about this thread I will say that Exterminator did take a long time to recover after it got chomped and I've avoided Encore since then as well. I don't know if they ever groomed skiers left on Cliffs. If they did then it recovered nicely. If not well then it speaks for itself.

[asland]

I definitely see your point, and understand everything that you've said. However, as I alluded to earlier, I am not only referring to this particular grooming. It just rekindled my frustration with excess grooming. There are definitely times when a good grooming is necessary, but it's been overdone this year.

As far as being able to rip GS turns... that's not my thing anyway. I'll take semi-hard bumps with powder on top any day over GS turns! And, by the way, I ski on bump skis which are practically straight. So your comment about shaped skis is a bit off base

With the exeption of the lead up to these spring storms I do see your point about overgrooming throughout the year, especially mid winter. When it has been consistently cold and snowing as it has been this winter, after mid january, there's no real reason to groom out stuff mid winter.

My earlier rant about super fats, could easily go for short shaped, and snowboarders as well. I guess what I should rant about is that there seems to be a culture creeping into skiing these days where everyone feels they need to ski the really hard trails. Is it the TGR, Warren Miller, Meathead...Films that glorify this? Not sure, but there seems to be more and more intermediates creeping onto advanced trails.

To each there own ... push yourself...

But once they are there on really wide skis with no shape (or their short skiis with lots of shape, or big fat snow boards that are hard to get up on edge) it's a recipe for disaster. They hack the shit out of the trail by sliding down the entire trail or squaring into bumps. Soon, it starts getting so the bumps are so squared off from people sliding into them or over them. The trail turns into such a disaster Sugarbush then has to groom out what should be a great bump trail with lines that just... tick tock tick tock.

I slightly digress... back to why is that sugarbush is overgrooming...

[AngryJohnny]

Speaking of failed grooming ops...what happend over at Domino? A couple of weeks ago there was a huge trench dug into it and they groomed it into a icy trap of death!
Asland...The health of moguls is dependent on a skiers/boarders ability to ski vertically and to hit the bumps on the frontside quarters and up and not on the type of ski or board.

[gone.skiing]

asland, should not the expert such as yourself be able to stay out of those troughs anyway? Anybody can ski a perfectly manicured bump line.

[asland]

asland, should not the expert such as yourself be able to stay out of those troughs anyway? Anybody can ski a perfectly manicured bump line.

First of all, screw you. Second of all, how much more fun is that perfect line. The perfect trail conditions is what this the underlying theme of this thread has been about.

Asland...The health of moguls is dependent on a skiers/boarders ability to ski vertically and to hit the bumps on the frontside quarters and up and not on the type of ski or board.

Of course ability can overcome but proper equipment for the conditions play a role as well. Ski companies have been selling this concept for as long as skis have been around. Recently, ski companies have just duped a large population into buying equipment that is not the best for eastern conditions most of the time.

[Lostone]

Moderator note: Please refrain from personal attacks.

Thanx for your support.

[AngryJohnny]

"Bird dog'em Frank!"