2007/2008 Pass Pricing

[random_ski_guy]

There are a ton of reasons they can charge less. They did not dump a bunch of money into new condos at the base being one of them but...

Point taken on business models, but Whiteface really isn't comparable because the state aid they receive is enormous.

As for condos, they are suppose to stand on their own financially. While I can't prove it, I doubt the pass price increase has anything to do with Claybrook. Again, neither you or I can disprove each other on the condo point, just my opinion.

[sugarboarder]

how much are passes at Stowe, Killington, etc?

Let's just establish for the record that Stowe is just rediculous. I hope that sugarbush does not soon fall into that category.

Killington on the other hand had a viable alternative with all east pass.

asland

It all depends on what you want...I posted this before, but for my money and needs Stowe is a better value next year.

***********************************

I bought an "AllMtn 5" pass this year at Sugarbush for $549. This year it will be $699. (about a +27% increase)
Blackout dates are Christmas Week, MLK Weekend, Presidents' Week. That's it. No cross-country, no discounts, no free use of the race course (course open Wed.-Sun. at Stowe / Friday thru Sunday at SB...that's IF it isn't being used for something else.)

***********************************

A "StoweFive" Pass for next year is $740.

This pass is valid every day of the season except: All Saturdays & Sundays, and 12/25/06 through and including 1/1/07, and 2/19/07. NO PRESIDENT'S WEEK OR MLK WEEKEND BLACKOUTS!

5 Day Pass benefits include the following:

Cross-Country Season Pass.
20% discount at Stowe Mountain Resort Retail Shops (non-sale items only).
20% discount on full tune-up at Stowe Mountain Resort Rental Shops.
10% discount at the Cliff House Restaurant and Fireside Tavern (food only).
Free use of Exhibition Hill race course (Open Wed-Sun).
Children receive a 25% discount on full day ski or snowboard Adventure Center school on the days the pass is valid.
20% OFF Private Lessons Valid Mon-Fri/Non-Holiday Periods. Reservations Required.

Add in the fact that the lodges are MUCH bigger and MUCH nicer than Sugarbush, the mountain is bigger (111 trails here is an ASC-inspired joke - it's more like 50 - Stowe is listed as a truthful 44) and the terrain is equal IMO, there is a gondi for cold days, and a transfer gondi between the mountains that runs EVERY day (we have the SBX chair - but it NEVER runs weekdays - weekday pass holders must take the bus). Former US Snowboard Team coach Bud Keene is in residence there too - and the overall level of racing is better too. No offense Lew/Kelly and GMVS - I'm talking general public here, I know you guys are the best!

Oh yeah - and they have a REAL halfpipe which isn't considered an "eyesore" by their clientele.

*************************************

So where is the best value? (Rhetorical question) IF I do stay in VT next year, I know where my pass will be for the $40 extra...even WITH the extra gas (there goes my "carbon offset" - boo hoo ).

This brings me back to what I was trying to say in my original post about my pass price going up so much - I wouldn't mind if I thought I was getting some sort of even semi-proportional increase in the value of having it, but I don't see it.

To each their own.

[TimKeogh]

Sugarboarder,

Have you been to Stowe on weekends recently?

Everybody wants to be on the front four, and there is only 1 HSQ to get you there.
Most of the day, it is way worse than Bravo on a Sat @ 10AM.

As for Gondola run, it is nice on a cold day, but I get sick of the that run after like 2 times.

I have not been on the new Spruce Peak stuff because it used to be too much Green/Blue. Is it any good ?

[kcyanks1]

Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Good idea, really. Probably not a good idea for ANY business owner to go on a forum like this and try to defend the comments that the public types in, sometimes off hand, sometimes when tired or angry at something else entirely...probably not agood idea to even READ it unless you can take it all with a grain of salt, take the comments that are useful and ignore the rest. It's just going to be frustrating to all parties involved. And when so many forum members know that owner personally and see them on a regular basis, it is bound to cause bad blood eventually. It is an admirable idea to be "in the mix" here, and goes with the nature of this owner to be "in the mix" on property which is great...I'm just not so sure it is a GOOD idea.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it is fantastic that Win has participated here, and his willingness to listen to his customer's rantings and complaints (and complements, of course) and to even respond has impressed me immensely, and increased my appreciation of Sugarbush and its owners. Of course he, or anyone, should realize the informality of this sort of message board and the diversity of opinions out there compared to who posts here. But that's not a reason for an owner not to post. I think interacting with one's consumers, especially one's most passionate consumer's, is an outstanding quality in an owner, whether or not we agree with all of his decisions. I for one will miss Win's participation in these forums and hope he comes back next season.

[random_ski_guy]

Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Good idea, really. Probably not a good idea for ANY business owner to go on a forum like this and try to defend the comments that the public types in, sometimes off hand, sometimes when tired or angry at something else entirely...probably not agood idea to even READ it unless you can take it all with a grain of salt, take the comments that are useful and ignore the rest. It's just going to be frustrating to all parties involved. And when so many forum members know that owner personally and see them on a regular basis, it is bound to cause bad blood eventually. It is an admirable idea to be "in the mix" here, and goes with the nature of this owner to be "in the mix" on property which is great...I'm just not so sure it is a GOOD idea.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it is fantastic that Win has participated here, and his willingness to listen to his customer's rantings and complaints (and complements, of course) and to even respond has impressed me immensely, and increased my appreciation of Sugarbush and its owners. Of course he, or anyone, should realize the informality of this sort of message board and the diversity of opinions out there compared to who posts here. But that's not a reason for an owner not to post. I think interacting with one's consumers, especially one's most passionate consumer's, is an outstanding quality in an owner, whether or not we agree with all of his decisions. I for one will miss Win's participation in these forums and hope he comes back next season.

ditto!

[sugarboarder]

Sugarboarder,

Have you been to Stowe on weekends recently?

Everybody wants to be on the front four, and there is only 1 HSQ to get you there.
Most of the day, it is way worse than Bravo on a Sat @ 10AM.

As for Gondola run, it is nice on a cold day, but I get sick of the that run after like 2 times.

I have not been on the new Spruce Peak stuff because it used to be too much Green/Blue. Is it any good ?

Uh...it's a "StoweFive" pass...weekdays only...I'm not a masochist.

Really though, since I am self-employed and "un-attached", and since I race practically every weekend somewhere else it doesn't make sense for me to have a 7-day pass. There is more than one run off the Gondi, and some excellet trees! Spruce has a great race hill. Like I said - to each his own.

[sugarboarder]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gag me...BN'ers.

[greenmtnboy]

It's too bad Win has to throw a temper tantrum on this site. With the exception of a few, every post has legitimate concerns about the cost increase. The only concern I have is as Treeskier said, pushing back the price break dates to May is pretty discouraging. Many of us middle income folks do have other things to pay for such as taxes, summer camps, so on and so forth. We personally budget for our passes this time of year, but to pay for all the other programs we participate in this early, sucks, to say the least. We shouldn't have to cover the losses incurred by the mountain, but its becoming evident, thats what is expected of us.

[daevious]

The most expensive Blazer program at the most expensive rate is still less than $40 per day. That is a little more than the cost of one 2-hour group lesson at Sugarbush, and it is hundreds less than the early season rate for Stowe's comparable programs.

Do the math--you cannot get a babysitter to watch TV with your child for the rate that you can get an experienced coach to work on your child's skiing for the winter at Sugarbush.

[sugarboarder]

The most expensive Blazer program at the most expensive rate is still less than $40 per day. That is a little more than the cost of one 2-hour group lesson at Sugarbush., and it is hundreds less than the early season rate for Stowe's comparable programs.

Do the math--you cannot get a babysitter to watch TV with your child for the rate that you can get an experienced coach to work on your child's skiing for the winter at Sugarbush.

Good point!! I don't have kids, but still!

I think the problem lies in that it increases the initial hit quite a bit. Would you still hire that same babysitter if you had to pay $1500 up front every year?

[HowieT2]

Frankly guys, I am tired of your complaining! No business can be all things to all people, and I am pleased that Sugarboarder has decided to go elsewhere. He knows the extra things that have been done for him over the past couple of years by members of my team, and it is best that he move on and see if someone else can please him more than we can. Tin, as far as your comments go, we have made huge improvements which fortunately most people appreciate. My team has does an exceptionaly job in a very tough year, we have invested enormously in the future of this Mountain, and personally I am very proud of what we have done. After a tough year where everyone worked extra hard to deliver a quality product and succeeded, I am signing of this blog for the rest of the year to enjoy my final 5-6 weeks of skiing. Write what you want. I am not reading it any more. Maybe I will speak to you next year!

Good idea, really. Probably not a good idea for ANY business owner to go on a forum like this and try to defend the comments that the public types in, sometimes off hand, sometimes when tired or angry at something else entirely...probably not agood idea to even READ it unless you can take it all with a grain of salt, take the comments that are useful and ignore the rest. It's just going to be frustrating to all parties involved. And when so many forum members know that owner personally and see them on a regular basis, it is bound to cause bad blood eventually. It is an admirable idea to be "in the mix" here, and goes with the nature of this owner to be "in the mix" on property which is great...I'm just not so sure it is a GOOD idea.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it is fantastic that Win has participated here, and his willingness to listen to his customer's rantings and complaints (and complements, of course) and to even respond has impressed me immensely, and increased my appreciation of Sugarbush and its owners. Of course he, or anyone, should realize the informality of this sort of message board and the diversity of opinions out there compared to who posts here. But that's not a reason for an owner not to post. I think interacting with one's consumers, especially one's most passionate consumer's, is an outstanding quality in an owner, whether or not we agree with all of his decisions. I for one will miss Win's participation in these forums and hope he comes back next season.

ditto!

I agree wholeheartedly, but would like to add the following. Sugarboarder you have a fairly unique situation and yet you don't seem to understand why the mountain operations are not tailored to please you. Not that your concerns aren't legitimate, but I don't think you can run a business that way. Stowe may be better for you next year and as with anyone, your attendance at SB will be missed, but I have a feeling you'll be complaining about Stowe as well.

It also seems that those who are upset about the price increases point the blame at the cost of the Claybrook, and don't mention the cost of building the new lodge. It seems beyond obvious, that the Claybrook pays for itself much quicker than the lodge which we all enjoy. I have my complaints about the lodge (don't like the chili, no fireplace, want bigger tvs with something on, size of CR pub and changing room yada yada yada) but it is a fantastic addition to the base and 'nothing is perfect. It is certainly a huge improvement and we should all be thankful that SV made the investment.

Frankly, some of the posts here complaining endlessly have sounded like my spoiled six year old. Instead of making constructive comments to help the powers that be understand the situation, it is just whining.

Tin, as for your comments about Apres and Timbers, I think part of the problem is that Timbers is closed off to the courtyard across from the CR pub. With the only entrance on the side, it is not inviting people in who just want to plop down somewhere casual for a beer. Perhaps a door across from the pub which is only utilized for apres? Just a thought.

I for one, have had the best ski season of my life. The reports of the sports demise in January were premature. I'm looking forward to getting my first season's pass ever. I want to thank everyone here for all the help and for contributing to a great season.

[sugarboarder]

Sugarboarder you have a fairly unique situation and yet you don't seem to understand why the mountain operations are not tailored to please you. Not that your concerns aren't legitimate, but I don't think you can run a business that way. Stowe may be better for you next year and as with anyone, your attendance at SB will be missed, but I have a feeling you'll be complaining about Stowe as well.

Yeah, you're right, really unique situation. Being a snowboarder and all - none of those around. And racing too...nobody here does that.

I've never asked the mountain to tailor their operations to please me and only me - come on. What I have done is say, hey, I paid for "X" and expect it. If you buy a NASTAR pass - you excpect to be able to use the NASTAR course. If you join the Sugarbush Racing Club, with 80+ members who pay to race every Thursday, buy NASTAR passes, and spend a lot on food at the mountain - you expect that you will get what you are paying for. If you buy a Sugarbush pass thinking there will be a halfpipe like we have had in the past, and there is not, wouldn't you say sometyhing about it? And believe me, I am not alone on that last point...since most here on this forum are skiers I'm sure you don't realize that.

I am not saying we didn't get ANYTHING. of course we did, and 90 percent of the time it was great, but am I not allowed to say when I think We are being shorted on what we paid for? People are acting like I expect SV to actually listen to what it is EXACTLY that I want to see here. All I am doing is the same as what everyone else here is doing - saying I don't like "X" or that I feel that I'm not getting what I paid for at times. It's venting, that's all, and I get it...NOBODY has to listen to me or DO anything...but that doesn't mean I don't have a right to speak my mind. What fun would it be if everyone agreed with me?

The argument that we are "getting a deal" with a midweek pass is a non-issue. That is what the mountain charged for said pass. To come back later and say "hey we gave you a deal, and we should be charging more for that service" is ridiculous. That was the rate paid and the deal was midweek skiing and riding...period. That's one of the reasons I believe Win's presence on this forum is not a good idea. It is a noble concept, but only if he understands that a lot of what he is hearing here is the same old stuff that he'd here if he listened to people talk in bars, the store, or wherever...it's just thst here it is saved for all to see. It's still a new medium with rules and etiquette and utilization of the medium being developed and learned by all involved. Believe me. I've learned a few things this winter about what and how to post complaints and/or comments, and even compliments. You can't take it back and it doesn't fade into a wall of bar talk here.

Side note - if I do go to Stowe, and complain about anything, it will PALE in comparison to the complaining I hear about basically EVERYTHING ELSE in life from practically EVERYONE I know, EVERY day...the government, taxes, the war, big box stores, the environment, red staers, blue staters, and on and on and on. It isn't like posting a negative comment on this board is some sort of anomaly in our daily lives.

[kcyanks1]

It's too bad Win has to throw a temper tantrum on this site. With the exception of a few, every post has legitimate concerns about the cost increase. The only concern I have is as Treeskier said, pushing back the price break dates to May is pretty discouraging. Many of us middle income folks do have other things to pay for such as taxes, summer camps, so on and so forth. We personally budget for our passes this time of year, but to pay for all the other programs we participate in this early, sucks, to say the least. We shouldn't have to cover the losses incurred by the mountain, but its becoming evident, thats what is expected of us.

I don't get season's passes, so I can't personally address how the price increase or moving up the price break date affects me. However, I doubt you are being expected to cover losses incurred by the mountain. Prices are set to maximize revenue, regardless of other expenses or losses. The price should be the same regardless of how Claybrook or the new lodge are doing, unless of course they increase demand.

[beelze]

Are you having a bad day. Sugarboarder? I can explain the economics of this business to you if you like. If you want what I know you want, it does not come free or cheap. The All-Mountain 5 is a great deal and you know it! Less crowds and great conditions. We really should charge more for week days! If you want, I have a pair of ski for you and am happy to introduce you to Eric!

Bottom line Win is that Sugarbush is overpriced - only Stowe is more and at least they give you some
extras. And for every one thing that your operation seems to do right, you end up doing two wrong.
Not interested in a *issing match with you but clearly you have no concept of 'the customer is always
right' if you have to make a reply like you just did. Too many yes men telling you how great your are
bud, sorry.

[Lostone]

The argument that we are "getting a deal" with a midweek pass is a non-issue. That is what the mountain charged for said pass. To come back later and say "hey we gave you a deal, and we should be charging more for that service" is ridiculous. That was the rate paid and the deal was midweek skiing and riding...period.

By your way of thinking, if they once have a low price, they could never get to market rates, but should always be below market rates. Actually, it is a common practice to offer a lower price to get someone into the store, then raise the prices, once you have sampled the product.

You have complained about the 27% increase. That is a lot. But they say they did it to get back to what they feel is the market price charged by their competitors. You said that was out of line, so you are going to Stowe, which will now be an increase of 35%. You justify that by saying the extras they give are worth the extra 8% above the original increase.

I said before, and again, if the value you will receive for the price they are charging is not there, you should take you freedom of movement and go to where the value fits the price you will pay.

I think you should go. I've looked at your list of extra things you get and they don't do it for me. And tho I'm not going to say Stowe is not a good mountain, I will say that I think Sugarbush's terrain is much better. But I think you need to get away, as you are so negative about Sugarbush it could never be good for you to stay, were they to give you a half price pass.

And I agree with Howie T2 that you'll be doing a lot of complaining there, too. I just think that is you. (IMNATHO) And if everyone I associated with was always complaining, I'd just have to find other people. It just has to drag you down. (again, IMNATHO)