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  1. #31
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by madhavok
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg
    Quote Originally Posted by madhavok
    I can only surmise that Sugarbush is thinking they’ll give away the skiing to college students for 4 years (or 5 or 6 depending upon the student) and when they graduate, find a job, and they’ll come back to Sugarbush to spend their hard earned dollars. That’s only my best guess but if I’m on the right track then I’m skeptic.
    You just answered your own question.
    Well like I said, if my best guess is true, i think its a nice concept but I bet it fails to deliver the numbers.



    1. I doubt big bucks are being spent at Sugarbush by recent college grads.
    2. Anyone who buys a college pass at Sugarbush probably already know how awesome Sugarbush is.
    3. Anyone who buys a college pass already is already a skier who is going to ski anyway.

    Remember the HSQ issue and how snow quality was a critical issue for some? Well giving away season passes at $299 to college kids who ski every weekend isn't helping that.

    Besides if your really interested in a future customer base then you better start before college. Someone who grows up in a family that ski's sugarbush comes back as a grown up with his or her family and skis sugarbush. Only problem is every year it gets harder and harder for the working middle class families to afford skiing as an activity.

    But then again i'm not surprised, most ski resorts stopped focusing their attention on "the family" 10 or 15 years ago.
    What do you do for a living, MH? I'm just curious. You seem to think you have all the answers, but your line of thinking is about 180 degrees from good business practices or even common sense sometimes.

    Sugarbush does cater to familes and tries to make it affordable. Take the Adult All Mountain-7 pass. With that, "Kids Ski Free! One dependent (ages 12 & under) receives a Youth All Mountain-7 pass for every Adult All Mountain-7 pass purchased." That's a pretty damn good deal. Kids 6 and under get free lift tickets at Sugarbush....all the time.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg
    Quote Originally Posted by madhavok
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg
    Quote Originally Posted by madhavok
    I can only surmise that Sugarbush is thinking they’ll give away the skiing to college students for 4 years (or 5 or 6 depending upon the student) and when they graduate, find a job, and they’ll come back to Sugarbush to spend their hard earned dollars. That’s only my best guess but if I’m on the right track then I’m skeptic.
    You just answered your own question.
    Well like I said, if my best guess is true, i think its a nice concept but I bet it fails to deliver the numbers.

    1. I doubt big bucks are being spent at Sugarbush by recent college grads.
    2. Anyone who buys a college pass at Sugarbush probably already know how awesome Sugarbush is.
    3. Anyone who buys a college pass already is already a skier who is going to ski anyway.

    Remember the HSQ issue and how snow quality was a critical issue for some? Well giving away season passes at $299 to college kids who ski every weekend isn't helping that.

    Besides if your really interested in a future customer base then you better start before college. Someone who grows up in a family that ski's sugarbush comes back as a grown up with his or her family and skis sugarbush. Only problem is every year it gets harder and harder for the working middle class families to afford skiing as an activity.

    But then again i'm not surprised, most ski resorts stopped focusing their attention on "the family" 10 or 15 years ago.
    What do you do for a living, MH? I'm just curious. You seem to think you have all the answers, but your line of thinking is about 180 degrees from good business practices or even common sense sometimes.

    Sugarbush does cater to familes and tries to make it affordable. Take the Adult All Mountain-7 pass. With that, "Kids Ski Free! One dependent (ages 12 & under) receives a Youth All Mountain-7 pass for every Adult All Mountain-7 pass purchased." That's a pretty damn good deal. Kids 6 and under get free lift tickets at Sugarbush....all the time.
    I wasn't making the point just about Sugarbush, it was directed at Ski areas in general.
    Nor was I just talking about the cost of getting on the lift when I said the focus of attention isn’t the family anymore, its much broader than that.

    But since season passes was your example of how Sugarbush does cater to the family try this:

    I can't afford a season pass at $1000+. Probably a lot of other people can't too, so how are their kids over 6 skiing for free? Actually Mom and Dad are paying $70 for their tickets and the kids (7-18 ) are getting a $5 discount at $65. GREAT. Suppose you want to take your family on a vacation when they’re off from school. Forget about it.

    Family of 4
    2 room Lodging $3000
    4 days skiing - $1080
    Lunch? That’s $50 each ski day = $200
    Lessons & Equipment rentals - $?
    Dinners - $?
    Other activities?

    Basically your talking an easy 5 or 6 grand for a one-week ski vacation. Middle Class families can't afford it anymore so fewer families go skiing. Less people learn to ski. I don’t have a solution but a week skiing shouldn’t be a once in a lifetime vacation for a family like going to Disney World.

  3. #33
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by madhavok
    Basically your talking an easy 5 or 6 grand for a one-week ski vacation.
    This is just silly. I've officially reached my "no point debating madhavok any more" threshold.

  4. #34
    Well MH and I have disagreed on a lot of things before, but when he adds up the math I understand what he's saying. Perhaps the lodging noted is a bit expensive and money could be saved by sharing a room (I will state right now I don't have kids so I don't speak with authority on how anything like that actually works out) or to try and find cheaper lodging. I think that if you look at it for 7 nights that's $430 a night. I know places go for that much during holiday weeks, but I think there are cheaper places not right on the mountain. Regardless though a more reasonable dollar amount might be $3K for the entire week and as you pointed out that doesn't include meals. Before the Sugarcard and getting a season pass when I used to have to go to the ticket window and buy a day pass it always amazed me when a family came up to buy tickets for the weekend and then add on rentals. I can see MH's point that it does seem expensive. Of course I don't know what a resort or mountain can do because they have to make enough money to run the place efficiently to make it appealing to come in the first place. Perhaps I'll put off having kids a couple more years to further my own skiing enjoyment.

  5. #35
    As I said before, I bought a season's pass and got a free one for my 9 year old. My 6 year old skis for free. We will ski 30 days this year. So, for the three of us to ski for the day costs us $30!!! To put it another way, it's about the same as going to the movies. I can't understand how this is even debatable. Lodging, equipment, etc., is a different story. However, I just priced out 5 days at Disney World, and I can tell you, that on a comparison basis, Sugarbush with lodging is affordable.

  6. #36
    Graduated from college in May '06, worked for SB winter '06'-'07...comp pass, won't do that ever again, winter '07-'08...now what....dish out $1000.....ha. I guess it's time to find a wealthy husband...

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugaree
    As I said before, I bought a season's pass and got a free one for my 9 year old. My 6 year old skis for free. We will ski 30 days this year. So, for the three of us to ski for the day costs us $30!!! To put it another way, it's about the same as going to the movies. I can't understand how this is even debatable. Lodging, equipment, etc., is a different story. However, I just priced out 5 days at Disney World, and I can tell you, that on a comparison basis, Sugarbush with lodging is affordable.
    Sugaree, are your a member of Winterset in Newtown?

    http://www.wintersetskiclub.org

  8. #38
    Maybe 430.00 a night is bit expensive and of course there a cheaper ways with double capicity and offsite lodging. Say 330.00/ night for a holiday week for a slope side condo. By the time you add in the 19% tax your still over $2700.

  9. #39
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MntMan4Bush
    Well MH and I have disagreed on a lot of things before, but when he adds up the math I understand what he's saying. Perhaps the lodging noted is a bit expensive and money could be saved by sharing a room (I will state right now I don't have kids so I don't speak with authority on how anything like that actually works out) or to try and find cheaper lodging. I think that if you look at it for 7 nights that's $430 a night. I know places go for that much during holiday weeks, but I think there are cheaper places not right on the mountain. Regardless though a more reasonable dollar amount might be $3K for the entire week and as you pointed out that doesn't include meals. Before the Sugarcard and getting a season pass when I used to have to go to the ticket window and buy a day pass it always amazed me when a family came up to buy tickets for the weekend and then add on rentals. I can see MH's point that it does seem expensive. Of course I don't know what a resort or mountain can do because they have to make enough money to run the place efficiently to make it appealing to come in the first place. Perhaps I'll put off having kids a couple more years to further my own skiing enjoyment.
    You can find cheaper lodging than that. Re: lift tickets - do a few days at Ellen only or MRG. Re: equipment - Most season rentals can be had for $100-$200 for the season. Re: lunch - brown bag it. Re: dinner - cook in a few nights. The point is there are ways to save if on a budget.

    The bottom line is yes, skiing is expensive and at some point it comes down to "if ya wanna play, ya gotta pay." Perhaps MH should just take up a new hobby. Skiing is too expensive and the lines at Valley House are too long...

  10. #40
    Sugaree (again for some strange reason I find myself defending the monkey with the gun. How odd ) "affordable" is different for everyone. I have a season pass and I rent a place up there every year for the whole season with no limits on when I can go up. For me if I look at it as how much it would have cost me per day if I put in 30 or 40 days it becomes a reasonable price. I am\we are fortunate also to have the capitol to pay that up front cost and go often enough to make it worth while. If we only went up 5-10 times a year a season pass may not be so reasonable and then we woudl be paying on a per stay basis. Is Sugarbush unreasonable in my mind. No. I can afford it (Please no one read this as conceited. It's not meant to be). Is it to others? Certainly possible. I can also see it from the mountain's POV because you have to find the mid-point where things are reasonably priced and still able to offer a quality product. Never having run a ski resotr before I have no idea where that is. I can just see how it's expensive to a lot of people as opposed to going to Wa-Wa-Wachuessetts Mnt a couple times during the holiday week might be cheaper if you live in the area or something. Everyone has to admit that the hiking of lodging costs and ticket prices during school holidays when you're promised volume anyway is a bit of a cheek, but something will always cost what the market will bear so what can you do.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg
    Quote Originally Posted by MntMan4Bush
    Well MH and I have disagreed on a lot of things before, but when he adds up the math I understand what he's saying. Perhaps the lodging noted is a bit expensive and money could be saved by sharing a room (I will state right now I don't have kids so I don't speak with authority on how anything like that actually works out) or to try and find cheaper lodging. I think that if you look at it for 7 nights that's $430 a night. I know places go for that much during holiday weeks, but I think there are cheaper places not right on the mountain. Regardless though a more reasonable dollar amount might be $3K for the entire week and as you pointed out that doesn't include meals. Before the Sugarcard and getting a season pass when I used to have to go to the ticket window and buy a day pass it always amazed me when a family came up to buy tickets for the weekend and then add on rentals. I can see MH's point that it does seem expensive. Of course I don't know what a resort or mountain can do because they have to make enough money to run the place efficiently to make it appealing to come in the first place. Perhaps I'll put off having kids a couple more years to further my own skiing enjoyment.
    You can find cheaper lodging than that. Re: lift tickets - do a few days at Ellen only or MRG. Re: equipment - Most season rentals can be had for $100-$200 for the season. Re: lunch - brown bag it. Re: dinner - cook in a few nights. The point is there are ways to save if on a budget.

    The bottom line is yes, skiing is expensive and at some point it comes down to "if ya wanna play, ya gotta pay." Perhaps MH should just take up a new hobby. Skiing is too expensive and the lines at Valley House are too long...
    I'd ski Ellen only a few days but I heard the snow quality is horrid over there because of the 2 high speed quads and 1 fixed quad that access the same terrain.

  12. #42
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by madhavok
    I'd ski Ellen only a few days but I heard the snow quality is horrid over there because of the 2 high speed quads and 1 fixed quad that access the same terrain.
    Nice try. Comparing GMX and NRX to Bravo and an HSQ up VH is a major stretch...

  13. #43
    I'm just happy there is someone to take the focus off my dangerous uninformed rantings!!

    That being said, I apologize to Win, AGAIN, for not being more diplomatic with my post about the pass pricing. I am the consumer, and I do view a 27% increase in my pass price in one year as outrageous, but the comments about "value added" and Clay Brook were out of line and not needed to support my argument. Anyone who knows me here, or personally, by now knows that I end up apologizing a lot. I am passionate about my sports, and an emotional person - gets me into trouble sometimes. Some like it, some don't - Ces't la vie. If I were Russian 30 years ago I probably would have been executed post haste.

    I do wish to defend a few things that people may think about me - and do a little tooting of my own horn. I am neither cheap, nor looking for a handout for no return. I compete on a national level in three sports - sailing, marathon kayaking, and alpine snowboarding. I pay for it all myself through my own hard work. I don't have a coach or equipment sponsors. I travel all over New England in winter and the eastern US in summer competing. I spend well over $8000 a season on snowboard competition, and over $12,000 a season on kayak racing. And that is using equipment that is largely hand-me-down that was state-of-the-art 3-4 years ago. In the last four years have finished 25th nationally in two different one-design sailboat classes. I won a Silver medal in an open class at the 2006 USCA National Marathon Kayak Championships, after finishing fourth, 49 seconds out of Bronze position, the year before. I finished fourth in alpine events in the 40-49 division at the 2006 USASA Snowboard Nationals, again barely off the podium - and this year I am ranked first in SL and second in GS in National points going into the 2007 USASA Nationals at Northstar-at-Tahoe the first week of April. I recently competed in a USSA/FIS NorAm at Bromley and got 36th out of 47 competitors in both PSL and PGS, scoring FIS points and acquiring a national and world points ranking (such as they are) - I was the oldest competitor by 7 years and twice the age of most of them. I am extremely proud of all this, and without going into detail and looking like I want sympathy, I have overcome several HUGE personal obstacles to do all this, which I do not talk about or use to justify poor results. I am trying to attract sponsors, and recently have acquired some (very) minor ones, both corporate and private. But then again, the results have only recently started to build up and improve. I talk up Sugarbush everywhere I go even without any direct support from them - or in an attempt to acquire said support. I buy a weekday pass only because it makes no sense to buy a 7 day when I am away practically every weekend during the season competing, and spending a ton of $$, elsewhere. My training opportunities locally, with the exception of a few NASTAR Fridays, are nil. That is why I get so upset when the NASTAR course is closed to the public at the last minute so often - and no option is given on Racer's Edge, as I was so often told last year would happen, if we only had the snow cover. This year we DO have the cover and yet still no secondary course is set 95% of the time. I am a paying customer - I am not looking for these things for free. GMVS, bless their hearts, has let me, a snowboarder, train with them from time to time, and Mr. Steve Utter has even thrown some pointers my way, for which I am eternally grateful. If I wasn't racing nationally, I'd spend more money at Sugarbush, but with only 20-25 days on the hill here, and 30+ days elsewhere, without a pass in those other places, I cannot justify it.

    I am no Doug Lewis or John Egan, far from it, but I am successful in my realm none the less, and I have been proud to say I am from this area. I just wish there was more support, on any level and not even monetary, for what I am doing. I like to think I could be an asset, not a PITA who is getting weekday riding for a song. There is an old business saying that if one person writes a letter to management about a problem, there are 100 others who feel the same way but don't bother writing. Now the internet has changed all that, and it is far easier, and way too public, to post such things in a forum like this - and the number of people feeling the same is probably not 100 to 1 any more, but I do not believe I am alone, and even though I approach it the wrong way sometimes, I am sure there are others with the same outlook. I guess I think they are here on skimrv, but most often they are not - our sports are too opposed here, no matter what some think or say...a comment that "we know a snowboarder but he is OK" or "we make fun of him but we like him" or "he is actually good at riding and can keep up" is not too much different than saying "we like X group of people, we even have one who is a friend...because he is more like us than the rest". That's how it feels to me most times anyway, all are of course entitled to their opinion.

    I guess you could say, in the spirit of Eddie Murphy's line in "48 Hours" - "I'm your worst nightmare - a snowboarder with a brain"!

    To those who have pointed it out - you are right - something in me does enjoy being the "renegade", the wolf in the sheep's pen, but really I wish it wasn't that way...it doesn't feel like that in a lot of other places. But I guess as I said above - Ces't la vie.

    PS - If anyone is interested in a 45 year old athlete overcoming obstacles and having National sucess in three sports, or knows someone who is, I have a full color PDF sponsorship proposal with photos, which includes a financial plan and accounting, results, benefits to the sponsor, and resume and personal goal statement. I'd of course be happy to send it along. Thanks.
    Altitude is Everything

  14. #44
    On a side note,

    When Sugarboarder was complaining about the 30% hike for his season pass it reminded me of being at work. In March every year they jack the payroll deductions for my health insurance up like 30% and everyone gets up in arms and walks around bitching & moaning.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by madhavok
    On a side note,

    When Sugarboarder was complaining about the 30% hike for his season pass it reminded me of being at work. In March every year they jack the payroll deductions for my health insurance up like 30% and everyone gets up in arms and walks around bitching & moaning.
    Chimpanzees are more prone to diseases (diet?) than humans...costs more to keep the insurance up.
    Altitude is Everything

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