Thoughts on closing ME before LP?

[Mike_451]

I agree that the Summit of ME is better positioned for spring skiing. I have seen Stiens hold up on its own some years well into may or june, so I don't think thats going to be much of a problem. Spring Fling as a Spring Run, how about Slush Springs, for all you Wake Boarders and Water Skiers out there. Something tells me that before Jester burns out, it will be sacrificed to build up whats left of the Traverse, and that Organgrinder, and Ripcord will end up getting sacrificed for Upper and Lower Downspout. If we are still skiing at the end of April, it will probably be on a 6' cat track of snow down spring fling, and Steins will be watery piles of slush with the dirt between the trowels showing through.

If Spring Fling, and Stiens are really going to be the spring trails, how about just running the VH chair instead of Super Bravo?

[BushMogulMaster]

If Spring Fling, and Stiens are really going to be the spring trails, how about just running the VH chair instead of Super Bravo?

PITA getting to it.

[Mike_451]

Coffee Run?

They could also set up a Carpet lift to make it easy to get to the chair at the begining of the day.

[win]

Reasonable people will always have a difference of opinions! That is what makes life interesting. There are good reasons why both mountains are good for late skiing. The economics of this business don't allow us to keep running both base areas. I would love to see more skiiers and riders in April, but history shows that the vast majority of people move to other activities after March. Our decision to go to LP this year was out belief that the base area will be a more fun spot for most. We made a lot of extra snow on Stein's, Snowball, Spring Fling and Coffee run before the Valentine's Day dump, and we think we have set those trails up for excellent Spring Skiing and Riding. We will run Bravo and Heaven's Gate as long as the snow cover allows and after that we can run Valley House to access the trails I mentioned before.

All ME passes will be honored at LP this Spring once ME closes on Sunday, April 1st. We will also be putting 07/08 season passes on sale later this week and any NEW passholder will be able to ski & ride at LP this April. There are a couple of new ticket offering, so check out the web later this week.

[Tin Woodsman]

Reasonable people will always have a difference of opinions! That is what makes life interesting. There are good reasons why both mountains are good for late skiing. The economics of this business don't allow us to keep running both base areas. I would love to see more skiiers and riders in April, but history shows that the vast majority of people move to other activities after March. Our decision to go to LP this year was out belief that the base area will be a more fun spot for most. We made a lot of extra snow on Stein's, Snowball, Spring Fling and Coffee run before the Valentine's Day dump, and we think we have set those trails up for excellent Spring Skiing and Riding. We will run Bravo and Heaven's Gate as long as the snow cover allows and after that we can run Valley House to access the trails I mentioned before.

All ME passes will be honored at LP this Spring once ME closes on Sunday, April 1st. We will also be putting 07/08 season passes on sale later this week and any NEW passholder will be able to ski & ride at LP this April. There are a couple of new ticket offering, so check out the web later this week.

Well, I'm not thrilled about the first paragraph, though it's true reasonable people can disagree. Definitely excited to hear about the 2nd paragraph.

[smootharc]

....chewing this over in my head (always a scary thought) and I'm gonna try to give this Spring's late season plan a fair chance.

It will be interesting to see how long things last at South, as I think a major inducement to Season's Pass sales was SB's increasingly long (and competitively long compared to neighbor's) season. What will current and long time pass holders think if that is shortened, even if only for 2-3 weeks, and if the quality of spring at south doesn't match up to what we all know the top of Ellen can deliver ? Does the perceived value of a pass go down in (granted, mostly the core skier's) mind ?

My biggest disappointment may be corny, but losing the views in spring off Mt. Ellen, to all points of the compass....with valleys green and verdant below, and mountain ranges still snow capped....well, those views matched anything I've seen anywhere, and I liked them alot.....sort of spiritual. Get off the lift, take a look around, smile to the other sunglass clad skiers...and off you go. I just got a warm, fuzzy feeling up top at Ellen in spring. Contented....

Anyways, time to leave the poetry to the poets.

....chewing this over in my head (always a scary thought) and I'm gonna try to give this Spring's late season plan a fair chance.

It will be interesting to see how long things last at South, as I think a major inducement to Season's Pass sales was SB's increasingly long (and competitively long compared to neighbor's) season. What will current and long time pass holders think if that is shortened, even if only for 2-3 weeks, and if the quality of spring at south doesn't match up to what we all know the top of Ellen can deliver ? Does the perceived value of a pass go down in (granted, mostly the core skier's) mind ?

Well said. At times people forget this is a business. Count your blessings that Sugarbush knows how to acheive a good balance between acheving their financial targets and keeping the customers happy. Some ski areas don't.

[saabski]

Win wrote: All ME passes will be honored at LP this Spring once ME closes on Sunday, April 1st.

I am a little sorry to see ME closing the weekend before Easter; as a passholder (weekender) my habit this year has been ME Sat and LP Sunday ....... no matter, I like both.


I am not much of a bump skier, so I am HOPING Snowball/Spring Fling can hold up like Rim Run/Looking Good have in the past! (like last year - photo above from 4/30/06)

Looking fwd to the posting of 07/08 options on the website. Hopefully it'll be noted in the morning email communication, as while I read that every day, I don't check the website that often.......

[ski_resort_observer]

You can talk about why Mellon is the better mountain for spring skiing till the cows come home and still isn't going change the fact that when going beyond our personal preferences, looking at the bigger picture, having LP open for the spring is the way to go. It's a slam dunk IMHO.

The vast majority of the skiers who come to the Bush prefer LP, just look at the parking lots on a busy Sat this past month or so. The only reason Mellon's parking lot got full is because all of LP's parking lots got filled, the main lot, the two new overflow lots, 22 acres, the Warren House lot, people had to go park at ME to be at LP. Even tho you and I prefer going to ME most of the guests want to be at LP.

As many of you know grabbing the destination skiers is key to any resort's financial health. This is not just folks who come for the weekend and during the holidays but people who share a house for the season, people who own second homes in the valley. Excluding the house share folks as I feel many of them are pretty hardcore skiers/riders, it been a well know fact for several years that the destination skiers don't come for the skiing as the number one reason, it's not even the second most important reason. If this was not the case ME would be alot busier than it is.

The vast majority of the Bush's guests want to be at LP, they don't care if the conditions would have been abit better at ME. It's not just folks at Claybrook it's most guests/owners.

[kcyanks1]

You can talk about why Mellon is the better mountain for spring skiing till the cows come home and still isn't going change the fact that when going beyond our personal preferences, looking at the bigger picture, having LP open for the spring is the way to go. It's a slam dunk IMHO.

The vast majority of the skiers who come to the Bush prefer LP, just look at the parking lots on a busy Sat this past month or so. The only reason Mellon's parking lot got full is because all of LP's parking lots got filled, the main lot, the two new overflow lots, 22 acres, the Warren House lot, people had to go park at ME to be at LP. Even tho you and I prefer going to ME most of the guests want to be at LP.

As many of you know grabbing the destination skiers is key to any resort's financial health. This is not just folks who come for the weekend and during the holidays but people who share a house for the season, people who own second homes in the valley. Excluding the house share folks as I feel many of them are pretty hardcore skiers/riders, it been a well know fact for several years that the destination skiers don't come for the skiing as the number one reason, it's not even the second most important reason. If this was not the case ME would be alot busier than it is.

The vast majority of the Bush's guests want to be at LP, they don't care if the conditions would have been abit better at ME. It's not just folks at Claybrook it's most guests/owners.

You might be right, but I don't think looking at what people do during the normal season is fair. I'd be one of those who would go to LP, park there, and ski there. I prefer to be there and like the terrain better (it's been a while since I've skied a lot of ME, I admit, but I've always preferred LP better). That applies until about mid-April. Then I realize that ME makes more sense for spring skiing and will offer better options for late season. Then I'd prefer to be at ME, unless of course it's a weird year and I can be skiing Paradise and Castlerock in late April or May So just judging by what the majority of people are doing at the peak season doesn't really show what those same people would prefer for April.

[Tin Woodsman]

You can talk about why Mellon is the better mountain for spring skiing till the cows come home and still isn't going change the fact that when going beyond our personal preferences, looking at the bigger picture, having LP open for the spring is the way to go. It's a slam dunk IMHO.

The vast majority of the skiers who come to the Bush prefer LP, just look at the parking lots on a busy Sat this past month or so. The only reason Mellon's parking lot got full is because all of LP's parking lots got filled, the main lot, the two new overflow lots, 22 acres, the Warren House lot, people had to go park at ME to be at LP. Even tho you and I prefer going to ME most of the guests want to be at LP.

As many of you know grabbing the destination skiers is key to any resort's financial health. This is not just folks who come for the weekend and during the holidays but people who share a house for the season, people who own second homes in the valley. Excluding the house share folks as I feel many of them are pretty hardcore skiers/riders, it been a well know fact for several years that the destination skiers don't come for the skiing as the number one reason, it's not even the second most important reason. If this was not the case ME would be alot busier than it is.

The vast majority of the Bush's guests want to be at LP, they don't care if the conditions would have been abit better at ME. It's not just folks at Claybrook it's most guests/owners.

They want to be at LP b/c LP has the steeps, gnarliness, variety, and serenity of Castlerock. It has some great cruisers like Snowball, Spring Fling, Birch Run, Hot Shot/Waterfall, Birdland, Jester and Lower OG. It has relentless steeps that go on for a LOOOOOOONG time like Spillsville, upper OG, Ripcord, Steins and all of CR. It has those great bumps on Morning Star, Twist, Moonshine, Steins, and all of CR. It has it all, and it has it in abundance. That's why people come to LP. ME has some short steeps like Black Diamond, FIS and Exterm, but they are largely lacking in character, with perhaps the exception of Bravo. The mid-mountain steeps are great for sure - Tumbler, Hammerhead, Encore - but limited. It has the best cruising around, but Cruiser, Northway and Which Way are so similar as to lack character. Lower FIS and the trails leading in are seldom open, and don't get me started on the walk out. And then Inverness and Brambles are so often off-limits due to GMVS (and don't get me started on the lower part of Brambles). The point is that while ME has many things in its favor and is a fine mountain, it pales in comparison to its neighbors to the north and south with respect to variety of terrain and overall attractiveness for the majority of skiers.

The reason I write this diatribe is b/c that equation goes completely out the window when you are talking about late season skiing. CR, the VH naturals, North Lynx and Gate House are gone. You're left with several north facing runs off Bravo and HG. Guess what, remember how for most of December and early January ME was skiing FAR better than LP (don't even try to deny it)? That's the situation you should be comparing things to, not mid-winter condtions with most of not everything open. LP becomes a lot less interesting when its just Ripcord, Paradise (maybe), Spills, OG, Jester, Snowball, Steins, Deathspout, Spring Fling, and Murphys. Compared to a later season ME with FIS, Black Diamond, Rim Run, Elbow, Lookin Good, Cruiser, Cliffs, Which Way, Northway, Exterminator, and Bravo, the choice isn't nearly as clear.

[ski_resort_observer]

You can talk about why Mellon is the better mountain for spring skiing till the cows come home and still isn't going change the fact that when going beyond our personal preferences, looking at the bigger picture, having LP open for the spring is the way to go. It's a slam dunk IMHO.

The vast majority of the skiers who come to the Bush prefer LP, just look at the parking lots on a busy Sat this past month or so. The only reason Mellon's parking lot got full is because all of LP's parking lots got filled, the main lot, the two new overflow lots, 22 acres, the Warren House lot, people had to go park at ME to be at LP. Even tho you and I prefer going to ME most of the guests want to be at LP.

As many of you know grabbing the destination skiers is key to any resort's financial health. This is not just folks who come for the weekend and during the holidays but people who share a house for the season, people who own second homes in the valley. Excluding the house share folks as I feel many of them are pretty hardcore skiers/riders, it been a well know fact for several years that the destination skiers don't come for the skiing as the number one reason, it's not even the second most important reason. If this was not the case ME would be alot busier than it is.

The vast majority of the Bush's guests want to be at LP, they don't care if the conditions would have been abit better at ME. It's not just folks at Claybrook it's most guests/owners.

They want to be at LP b/c LP has the steeps, gnarliness, variety, and serenity of Castlerock. It has some great cruisers like Snowball, Spring Fling, Birch Run, Hot Shot/Waterfall, Birdland, Jester and Lower OG. It has relentless steeps that go on for a LOOOOOOONG time like Spillsville, upper OG, Ripcord, Steins and all of CR. It has those great bumps on Morning Star, Twist, Moonshine, Steins, and all of CR. It has it all, and it has it in abundance. That's why people come to LP. ME has some short steeps like Black Diamond, FIS and Exterm, but they are largely lacking in character, with perhaps the exception of Bravo. The mid-mountain steeps are great for sure - Tumbler, Hammerhead, Encore - but limited. It has the best cruising around, but Cruiser, Northway and Which Way are so similar as to lack character. Lower FIS and the trails leading in are seldom open, and don't get me started on the walk out. And then Inverness and Brambles are so often off-limits due to GMVS (and don't get me started on the lower part of Brambles). The point is that while ME has many things in its favor and is a fine mountain, it pales in comparison to its neighbors to the north and south with respect to variety of terrain and overall attractiveness for the majority of skiers.

The reason I write this diatribe is b/c that equation goes completely out the window when you are talking about late season skiing. CR, the VH naturals, North Lynx and Gate House are gone. You're left with several north facing runs off Bravo and HG. Guess what, remember how for most of December and early January ME was skiing FAR better than LP (don't even try to deny it)? That's the situation you should be comparing things to, not mid-winter condtions with most of not everything open. LP becomes a lot less interesting when its just Ripcord, Paradise (maybe), Spills, OG, Jester, Snowball, Steins, Deathspout, Spring Fling, and Murphys. Compared to a later season ME with FIS, Black Diamond, Rim Run, Elbow, Lookin Good, Cruiser, Cliffs, Which Way, Northway, Exterminator, and Bravo, the choice isn't nearly as clear.

Again, your just talking about the skiing, I agree with your in depth analysis about the ski conditions, my point is the picture that has to be looked at is much much bigger than just that. Just one of the many reasons your not considering is the parking lots. LP's lot is paved, ME's parking lot can be a major hassle in the spring. Even last December we had to push some cars out of the mud at ME.

I never said the ski conditions are better at LP in the spring, never said ME isn't set up for holding snow better April/May, your getting all worked up over nothing. Must be a slow day at the office.

The landscape has changed, spring skiing is not a busy time overall anymore. Even Kmart has finally figured that out as their planned closing date is May 6th this year.

[saabski]

well said, Tin. I am one of those 2nd home owner/guests and my preference is to ski where the snow will be best on any given weekend, factoring in crowds, possible wind holds etc. ME (Mellon? I like that!) wins come mid-April on elevation and exposure.
LP may win with ambiance but at the end of day, it's the snow that draws people late season, no?

WHichever is open, I think Sugarbush will have the chance to really capture the April skiers this year. With ownership changes at K, who knows how late they plan to run..... and I had an email from Bretton Woods (who beat K last year for late ops) that indicates tentative close at 4/15. I know, I know most 'Bush afficionados would not be caught dead at either, but I am always on the lookout for late season lift-served options......

getting colder later in the week. yay.

[freeheel_skier]

Again, your just talking about the skiing, my point is the picture that has to be looked at is much much bigger than just that. Just one of the many reasons your not considering is the parking lots. LP's lot is paved, ME's parking lot can be a major hassle in the spring

I think when we talk about "late" or April skiing, we are talking about a slightly different clientele than say Jan/Feb skiers who plan week/weekend trips. Most people who ski late season are the diehards or property owners in the Valley. We (I) only care about "the skiing". If the skiing was better @ LP in April I would be saying "AMEN"!!!! I think many people would be saying the same thing. We would be praising Summit Ventures for this stellar slam dunk idea........This is not the case. No matter how you slice it, late skiing is about the conditions. It is also about drinking beer and eating bbq on a deck or decks!

I had to add the deck thing

[ahm]

Yep, LP is it. Best place on a pow day, best place for corn and steeps. Stay away from old mt ellen and those pesky GMVS'ers. There are no trees at North, no bumps, no character and oh my god, you have to walk up from the parking lot, and yes it is not paved, and that may get your audi dirty. So, great move on the LP closer, your car will stay clean and Alpine Options and Mt side will get the benefit of tuning your skis due to the power melt out that will occur at the base......