Terrain Development and Expansion

[Mike451]

Ok, so here is the most realistic possibility for any Major terrain Expansion.

The Pod above the Inverness.


And here is another interesting possibility, that makes alot of sense.

The Area inbetween Tumbler, and Lower FIS.

(There is already a sick Movie Quality creak-bed in this area)

So, lets a get a posting and discuss this a bit.

I personaly would like to see a bit more terrain at Mt Ellen, as the possibilities, would amount to being some fairly notable East Coast Terrain.

[HowieT2]

Question-with the expansion in interest in off piste skiing and adventure tours is a "terrain expansion" going to be worth the investment.

[BushMogulMaster]

Question-with the expansion in interest in off piste skiing and adventure tours is a "terrain expansion" going to be worth the investment.

Yes, especially in areas like the pod above Inverness, because without a lift it takes A LOT of hiking to get into some of that terrain. I don't think any of us would suggest cutting 50 new trails and chopping the whole mountain up. Rather, add a couple lifts and some great skinny New England trails with large sections of incredible tree skiing between them.

As I've mentioned before, I'd like to see some expansion with surface lifts: inexpensive, effective, and keep the trails relatively uncrowded. How about some detachable Poma F-12s that pick you right up off the snow!

[freeheel_skier]

Can't you expand/open new area w/o lifts? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Just get off the lift and do a little hiking. Skiers do it all the time in the slack country out west (i.e. Abasin's east wall, off of the canyon's 99nine lift or peak 5 chair, Needles @ Red resort). The areas I mention are not patrolled but on the map. Some of the resorts do avy control....this doesn't mean it is part of the resort and safe....bring your gear. Here in the east I feel people want immediate satisfaction. Lifts to lifts, magic carpets, etc. Part of the draw to the tree skiing for some is the adventure of being "o.b." but they want the safety net ski patrol. Just my .02

[ski_resort_observer]

Regarding the pod above Inverness. I assume you have seen the old Glen Ellen trail map from Strat's site that shows this pod. They built the lift corrider but from what I remember the state stopped Glen Ellen and the work never progressed. This pic is from 1992, today it is very overgrown, not able to see on a recent image.

[random_ski_guy]

Can't you expand/open new area w/o lifts? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Just get off the lift and do a little hiking. Skiers do it all the time in the slack country out west (i.e. Abasin's east wall, off of the canyon's 99nine lift or peak 5 chair, Needles @ Red resort). The areas I mention are not patrolled but on the map. Some of the resorts do avy control....this doesn't mean it is part of the resort and safe....bring your gear. Here in the east I feel people want immediate satisfaction. Lifts to lifts, magic carpets, etc. Part of the draw to the tree skiing for some is the adventure of being "o.b." but they want the safety net ski patrol. Just my .02

I think those of us who like to talk about new trails & new lifts just can't help ourselves. To us, day dreams about new trails is seriously fun cloud talk, thats all. Its not like we're in a position to actually wreak the havoc we talk so seriously about. If your an anti new trail guy/gal, thats kool with me when it comes to Sugarbush because the mtn really doesn't need much in the way of new trails at all anyway. What makes talking about new trails at Sugarbush so much fun is that most mountains don't have nearly the amount of natural, innate, big vertical skiing left to develop at its finger tips. At Sugarbush, you are completely surrounded by new trail opportunities.

[freeheel_skier]

Can't you expand/open new area w/o lifts? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Just get off the lift and do a little hiking. Skiers do it all the time in the slack country out west (i.e. Abasin's east wall, off of the canyon's 99nine lift or peak 5 chair, Needles @ Red resort). The areas I mention are not patrolled but on the map. Some of the resorts do avy control....this doesn't mean it is part of the resort and safe....bring your gear. Here in the east I feel people want immediate satisfaction. Lifts to lifts, magic carpets, etc. Part of the draw to the tree skiing for some is the adventure of being "o.b." but they want the safety net ski patrol. Just my .02

I think those of us who like to talk about new trails & new lifts just can't help ourselves. To us, day dreams about new trails is seriously fun cloud talk, thats all. Its not like we're in a position to actually wreak the havoc we talk so seriously about. If your an anti new trail guy/gal, thats kool with me when it comes to Sugarbush because the mtn really doesn't need much in the way of new trails at all anyway. What makes talking about new trails at Sugarbush so much fun is that most mountains don't have nearly the amount of natural, innate, big vertical skiing left to develop at its finger tips. At Sugarbush, you are completely surrounded by new trail opportunities.

I like pipe dreaming too. I am not anti/pro anything. I like seeing other peoples perspective and opinions regarding trail expansion. I like comparing my thoughts with others. Every now and then I read an opinion and say wow that would be cool....sometimes I say holy crap! What is this person thinking! Often I read my own posts and say the later.

[Strat]

It's all about the free thoughts man...

Need a hippie emoticon.

[Mike451]

Well, Regarding the corridor above the Inverness, this is actualy a possibility, and the Resort has even publicly hinted that they are aware of it, and are interested in it. In addition, this terrain was Planned by Glen Ellen, it was Advertised, and they got as far as cutting the lift path. The Cut is still there, and is prety visible from German Flats Road, I allwayse thought it was for utility poles, untill I saw the stuff on Strats page. This could be some Epic terrain, really fitting to the character of Sugarbush, and is worth devoloping if possible. This terrain would literally crown Mt Ellen, and ad some significant vert to the Inverness area, and make Mt Ellen stand out even further as the Great new England MT it is. I can immagin about 4 trails or so beeing cut, a Blue to either side of the lift line with snowmaking, an extremly narrow black with natural snow as the lift line, and then a Possible Black, branching way out, and then linking into brambles. Another possibility, would be a trail that traverses over towards lower exterminator, and possibly even as far as way back, agian ridiculously narrow, like the Northway traverse. This could then bring access to some, very, very sick tree skiing in the area above the existing traverse.

Again, the area inbetween Tumbler and Lower FIS, were not talking about 20 trails here, even 2 maybe 3 trails would make great use of this area, and again, following the character not quantity doctrine, could really futher Mt Ellen as one of the great Mountains of the East Coast.

I am in favor of Trail Devolopment, but I don't care about having a larger trail count just to close the gap between what K-Mart advertises. What I would like to see, is some potentially epic terrain that is sitting dormant, be made available. This is also Sugarbush's Change, to break the standards of modern Trail Dev, (as wide as possible for tons of guns, and engineered for optimal trafic flow by a fim in Manhaten if you catch my drift) and devolop some truly great classic new england terrain, that would further enhance Sugarbush, and provide more of a reason for people to go there instead of some other hill.

[BushMogulMaster]

Well, Regarding the corridor above the Inverness, this is actualy a possibility, and the Resort has even publicly hinted that they are aware of it, and are interested in it. In addition, this terrain was Planned by Glen Ellen, it was Advertised, and they got as far as cutting the lift path. The Cut is still there, and is prety visible from German Flats Road, I allwayse thought it was for utility poles, untill I saw the stuff on Strats page. This could be some Epic terrain, really fitting to the character of Sugarbush, and is worth devoloping if possible. This terrain would literally crown Mt Ellen, and ad some significant vert to the Inverness area, and make Mt Ellen stand out even further as the Great new England MT it is. I can immagin about 4 trails or so beeing cut, a Blue to either side of the lift line with snowmaking, an extremly narrow black with natural snow as the lift line, and then a Possible Black, branching way out, and then linking into brambles. Another possibility, would be a trail that traverses over towards lower exterminator, and possibly even as far as way back, agian ridiculously narrow, like the Northway traverse. This could then bring access to some, very, very sick tree skiing in the area above the existing traverse.

Again, the area inbetween Tumbler and Lower FIS, were not talking about 20 trails here, even 2 maybe 3 trails would make great use of this area, and again, following the character not quantity doctrine, could really futher Mt Ellen as one of the great Mountains of the East Coast.

I am in favor of Trail Devolopment, but I don't care about having a larger trail count just to close the gap between what K-Mart advertises. What I would like to see, is some potentially epic terrain that is sitting dormant, be made available. This is also Sugarbush's Change, to break the standards of modern Trail Dev, (as wide as possible for tons of guns, and engineered for optimal trafic flow by a fim in Manhaten if you catch my drift) and devolop some truly great classic new england terrain, that would further enhance Sugarbush, and provide more of a reason for people to go there instead of some other hill.

Thank you, Mike451... my thoughts exactly. We don't want to up the trail count, just add some incredible new england skiing!

Also, something to bear in mind for those of you who are not into new trail expansion with lifts (there was mention of the west-style hiking, et. al.), while that may be fun for many of us, a significant portion of the New England market is the city crowd, many of whom only ski a few days a year. From my personal experience, most of these people like on-piste skiing, even when they graduate to expert terrain. Maybe not everyone is like that, but it seems to me that the larger portion of the market in this part of the country is looking for on-piste with the option of some well-cleared and marked off-piste.

[Lostone]

I still say that for those that need on-piste trails, we have many. If you want to ski areas where there aren't trails, learn to do so. They are legal, now.

There are places I used to ski for powder that are now highways. You only find powder during or immediately after the storm. People look at areas and say it would be nice to ski them. Others already are.

Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain.

This doesn't apply to the area above Inverness, as it is significantly uphill, and might be greatly helped by a lift to get uphill.

That's my 2/100 of a dollar.

[BushMogulMaster]

I still say that for those that need on-piste trails, we have many. If you want to ski areas where there aren't trails, learn to do so. They are legal, now.

There are places I used to ski for powder that are now highways. You only find powder during or immediately after the storm. People look at areas and say it would be nice to ski them. Others already are.

Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain.

This doesn't apply to the area above Inverness, as it is significantly uphill, and might be greatly helped by a lift to get uphill.

That's my 2/100 of a dollar.

I agree to some extent, Lostone (and of course I respect your opinion); however, bear in mind that none of us are suggesting adding any "highways" anywhere. On the contrary, in fact. And although your "modify your abilities" theory is true in some cases, not everyone who comes here to ski has the time or resources to do so. Also, this still doesn't solve the Lower FIS runout (if we're also discussing that area). I won't pretend for a minute that I have all the answers to this particular conundrum... just adding my own .02.

You're definitely right about the area above Inverness... that would simply not be feasible without a lift.

[freeheel_skier]

I still say that for those that need on-piste trails, we have many. If you want to ski areas where there aren't trails, learn to do so. They are legal, now.

There are places I used to ski for powder that are now highways. You only find powder during or immediately after the storm. People look at areas and say it would be nice to ski them. Others already are.

Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain.

Couldn't agree with you more. You nailed it!

[random_ski_guy]

For the most part people in this forum are savy, thoughtful, die hard skiers. Most I think I have strong sense of self, of their skiing self and a very conscience idea of their ski beliefs. So, I think its generally a fruitless exercise to try to convince each other that their position on new trail development is in the right. I've had these debates for years with my own ski pals and nothing has come of it. Some clamor for more highways, some for more backcountry. For the most part, you're either in one camp or another (like religion or a sports team). Too bad for me that my camp doesn't have cool macho platitudes like "Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain."

[Tin Woodsman]

[quote="BushMogulMaster"]

Well, Regarding the corridor above the Inverness, this is actualy a possibility, and the Resort has even publicly hinted that they are aware of it, and are interested in it. In addition, this terrain was Planned by Glen Ellen, it was Advertised, and they got as far as cutting the lift path. The Cut is still there, and is prety visible from German Flats Road, I allwayse thought it was for utility poles, untill I saw the stuff on Strats page. This could be some Epic terrain, really fitting to the character of Sugarbush, and is worth devoloping if possible. This terrain would literally crown Mt Ellen, and ad some significant vert to the Inverness area, and make Mt Ellen stand out even further as the Great new England MT it is. I can immagin about 4 trails or so beeing cut, a Blue to either side of the lift line with snowmaking, an extremly narrow black with natural snow as the lift line, and then a Possible Black, branching way out, and then linking into brambles. Another possibility, would be a trail that traverses over towards lower exterminator, and possibly even as far as way back, agian ridiculously narrow, like the Northway traverse. This could then bring access to some, very, very sick tree skiing in the area above the existing traverse.

Again, the area inbetween Tumbler and Lower FIS, were not talking about 20 trails here, even 2 maybe 3 trails would make great use of this area, and again, following the character not quantity doctrine, could really futher Mt Ellen as one of the great Mountains of the East Coast.

I am in favor of Trail Devolopment, but I don't care about having a larger trail count just to close the gap between what K-Mart advertises. What I would like to see, is some potentially epic terrain that is sitting dormant, be made available. This is also Sugarbush's Change, to break the standards of modern Trail Dev, (as wide as possible for tons of guns, and engineered for optimal trafic flow by a fim in Manhaten if you catch my drift) and devolop some truly great classic new england terrain, that would further enhance Sugarbush, and provide more of a reason for people to go there instead of some other hill.

Good points both. A few things to remember about this terrain. Even though would be relatively high elevation, it would have roughly the same aspect as the GH and NL pods at LP - almost due SE. With so much sun exposure, it would almost certainly need snowmaking to remain open for a large portion of the season. Combined with BMM's well taken observations with regard to what the market wants above, and it's likely that you'd need to create, at the very least, a mix of straighter and slightly wider snowmaking trails vs. classic New England style runs that many of us here love so much. Mind you, I'm not talking about a Spring Fling/Ripcord style abomination, but rather something about the width of Birdland (with hopefully a few more twists and turns ). One thing to remember is that such an expansion of the snowmaking footprint would be highly unlikely unless and until SB resolves its wider snowmaking issues. As we know the system at ME is capped from the water perspective and you'd likely have to upgrade the entire system on that side of the mountain (though that is pure speculation on my part, admittedly. Not sure how you'd double the size/vertical of that area without an upgrade on the bottom half....but I digress...). As such, this expansion would likely have to wait in line behind the mooted connection of the two systems at LP and ME via the already permitted water/air pipelines through Slide Brook. That plans for this are clearly visible on Strat's fantastic site, and I'm sure the forthcoming sugarbushhistory.com. Finally, for your super bad-ass skiers and riders chomping at the bit for some new expert terrain, don't get your hopes up. The topo clearly indicates that there is very little in the way of real expert terrain up there, at least as defined in a Sugarbush context (as opposed to say, Stratton). The lone exception is a 300-400' vertical swath to the SSE of the summit of the proposed lift, down near some sort of shelter off the LT whose name escapes me right now. You can see that laid out below:



Make no mistake, the vast majority of this terrain would be prime intermediate cruising terrain, to the tune of 1100' or even 1500' if you end a trail at mid-Brambles. It owuld be fantastic though and, as Mike 451 said, it would crown Mount Ellen with fantastic terrain from all angles. This pod gets wonderful late day sun peaking over Mt. Ellen's shoulder, and would likely be a real hit b/c of its pitch and relative warmth. It is, however, at least 10 years away, IMHO. This doesn't even touch on the issue of having sufficient skier demand. My guess is that something like this would have to wait for not only the connection of the snowmaking systems, but also some sort of real estate development in the parking lot/lower flats of ME. I've never heard of such a concept in the works, but given that you have private land there, much of which remains poorly used, I can't imagine why that wouldn't be the plan assuming Clay Brook and the follow on structures are a success.