Terrain Development and Expansion

[Yard Sale]

Re:"Too bad for me that my camp doesn't have cool macho platitudes like "Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain.""

A differnt interpretation might be to look at one's potential for personal growth rather than the limitations of ones ability. Skiing is a sport where one is typically looking for challenge. The challenge of beating one's prior self. Whether that challenge is met through the improvement of the technique itself or in the satisfaction one might reap by simply striving to be better and the recognition of one's own effort. Getting there is the true adventure. Whether it's skiing some tight lie in the trees or truly linking actual turns the rewards are what you make of them.

Striving for the trees is no different than any other aspect of life. It is a personal evolution.

[freeheel_skier]

For the most part people in this forum are savy, thoughtful, die hard skiers. Most I think I have strong sense of self, of their skiing self and a very conscience idea of their ski beliefs. So, I think its generally a fruitless exercise to try to convince each other that their position on new trail development is in the right. I've had these debates for years with my own ski pals and nothing has come of it. Some clamor for more highways, some for more backcountry. For the most part, you're either in one camp or another (like religion or a sports team). Too bad for me that my camp doesn't have cool macho platitudes like "Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain."

Random,
I think......Lostone was referring to ob tree lines becoming highways. I'll let him speak for himself. As for "cool macho attitudes." This is a point of view, an opnion. Nothing macho about it. Like you said it is a "frutless excercise"....But it is a fun one!

[BushMogulMaster]

You make some GREAT points, Tin. I can't elaborate much at the moment... I'm getting ready to upload Beta Version 1.0 of sugarbushhistory.com!

You're definitely right about the pitch of the terrain above Inverness... most is solid intermediate to upper-intermediate. What about a lift and three or four real skinny trails above Northway? Nothing major, for sure... but just a couple of fun trails. The exposure is mostly east (and slightly north) and should hold snow fairly well. The top 300-400 feet are ass-kicking steep, and the remaining 300 or so feet is still fairly steep. Certainly don't develop it all... there's a lot of good tree-skiing to be had. But just a little would be fun, IMHO.

I hadn't thought much about the need for snowmaking above Inverness, but it would definitely take a serious money and time investment. But hey... anything's possible, right?

[random_ski_guy]

Re:"Too bad for me that my camp doesn't have cool macho platitudes like "Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain.""

A differnt interpretation might be to look at one's potential for personal growth rather than the limitations of ones ability. Skiing is a sport where one is typically looking for challenge. The challenge of beating one's prior self. Whether that challenge is met through the improvement of the technique itself or in the satisfaction one might reap by simply striving to be better and the recognition of one's own effort. Getting there is the true adventure. Whether it's skiing some tight lie in the trees or truly linking actual turns the rewards are what you make of them.

Striving for the trees is no different than any other aspect of life. It is a personal evolution.

Yard Sale, you have a great observation on the nature of skiing in general. I couldn't agree with you more. But I'm not so sure how it fits into the subject matter of pro/anti trail development though. Maybe you were moving a touch beyond that topic?

[random_ski_guy]

The Inverness pod would be a beauty. It has a beautiful fall line, beautiful forest cover, beautiful ridge top. All of it would work so well that I think it might have the potential to be the best new lift access intermediate skiing since....Perry Merrill? Actually i don't since when, but I think it might be the best new intermediate skiing in NE in twenty years (Sunday River notwithstanding). It would beat the tar out of Jackson Gore (in my opinion) or South Ridge at Okemo, Mt Snow's Sun Bowl, etc. You could have one primary trail and the balance be hammerhead, moonshine, domino like beauties.

I think you're looking at a project that is 10-20 years away. I think SB will want to focus on LP village first and Snowmaking second before they get to something like this. Tin makes an excellent point, the SE exposure is going to require snowmaking to ensure consistant use. Any snowmaking capacity expansion is going to take a long lead time from the sounds of it....and by no means is it assured.

lets keep playing with it in the long meantime.

[Tin Woodsman]

You make some GREAT points, Tin. I can't elaborate much at the moment... I'm getting ready to upload Beta Version 1.0 of sugarbushhistory.com!

You're definitely right about the pitch of the terrain above Inverness... most is solid intermediate to upper-intermediate. What about a lift and three or four real skinny trails above Northway? Nothing major, for sure... but just a couple of fun trails. The exposure is almost due mostly east (and slightly north) and should hold snow fairly well. The top 300-400 feet are ass-kicking steep, and the remaining 300 or so feet is still fairly steep. Certainly don't develop it all... there's a lot of good tree-skiing to be had. But just a little would be fun, IMHO.

I hadn't thought much about the need for snowmaking above Inverness, but it would definitely take a serious money and time investment. But hey... anything's possible, right?

Meh. Not really worth it, IMHO. Minimal vertical, and it's not like most of that terrain isn't already accessible via a good hike/skate from existing terrain.

I think the Inverness/Stark Mtn pod is the way to go as it solidifies Mt. Ellen's place as the pre-eminent cruising mountain in Northern VT, if not the Northeast as a whole. It would also dramatically change the skiing and riding experience at ME as it would spread the traffic out and provide a dramatically enhanced ability to utilize different aspects and elevations to your advantage just like at LP. IMO, you would see a big closing of the gap in skier visits between ME and LP if this were implemented, with many of the most profitable type visitors
(cruising families from big metro areas) preferring ME.

[random_ski_guy]

For the most part people in this forum are savy, thoughtful, die hard skiers. Most I think I have strong sense of self, of their skiing self and a very conscience idea of their ski beliefs. So, I think its generally a fruitless exercise to try to convince each other that their position on new trail development is in the right. I've had these debates for years with my own ski pals and nothing has come of it. Some clamor for more highways, some for more backcountry. For the most part, you're either in one camp or another (like religion or a sports team). Too bad for me that my camp doesn't have cool macho platitudes like "Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain."

Random,
I think......Lostone was referring to ob tree lines becoming highways. I'll let him speak for himself. As for "cool macho attitudes." This is a point of view, an opnion. Nothing macho about it. Like you said it is a "frutless excercise"....But it is a fun one!

Richie, you modified my quote by replacing platitudes with attitudes. Reread with platitudes.

[BushMogulMaster]

Meh. Not really worth it, IMHO. Minimal vertical, and it's not like most of that terrain isn't already accessible via a good hike/skate from existing terrain.

Remember, Tin... there are hundreds of resorts that would beg to have that 600-700' vertical! I still think it would be worth it, but that's just me.

[freeheel_skier]

I just read "Interconnected" in February's Powder. It's about connecting all seven of the central Wasatch resorts. Interesting stuff. I started thinking that it would be kinda cool if there was a way MRG and ME could be tied together. Each could share a joint lift ticket. This is just a thought, not even a reality. But is Alta & Snowbird can do it....who knows. One is skiing/boarding the other is SKIERS only. Solitude and Brighton do the same thing
I don't want to touch the skiing only policy with a ten foot pole .....so just leave that one alone. I'll probably regret bringing it up.

Anyway it was an ineresting article.

[sugarboarder]

This just in - the entire Sugarbush ridge line is now 100 feet lower due to erosion from the nice weather the past two days. That 100 feet is no longer considered vertical, but instead "horizontal" and can still be had by a swim in the Mad River.

[random_ski_guy]

Richie,

As you may know, people have been talking/dreaming about the interconnection for a number of years now. If you do some googling you can pull up some interesting stuff including hypothetical interconnection lift plans. For instance I read somewhere that at one time the state of Utah contemplated building a highway tunnel from alta to brighton to reduce the up/down canyon auto traffic. A project that is more likely to happen is the opening of the summer summit road (empire pass?) from deer valley to brighton year round. I believe the state is closer to making that a reality for the same traffic reducing reasons.

Aside from the infrastructure costs, lift revenue sharing will be a significant hurdle. Of course there will be environmental hurdles too, but I'm not so sure they are insurmountable. I think a great way to deal with environmental matters is to promise that skiing/lift operating will be limited to a certain season. Just like at Vail where the back bowls have to close by a certain date in April.

In general, I'm a big believer in utah ski real estate. I think its only a matter of time (I’m thinking 10-20 years) until they install the 3-5 lifts needed to connect all the mtns. Once they do, presto! A ton of value has been created.

[Strat]

Not sure why Tin hasn't mentioned it already, but a while ago he sent me a fake map with trail connections and also an extension of terrain in the 20th Hole/Big Basin area at MRG... pretty cool...

[Lostone]

For the most part, you're either in one camp or another (like religion or a sports team).

To many I know, a sports team is like a religion.

Too bad for me that my camp doesn't have cool macho platitudes like "Don't modify the mountain for your abilities, modify your abilities for the mountain."

Make one up. Where did you think I got mine? At the cool macho platitude store?

Actually, of those who know me in real life, and there are a fair number, here, I would guess none would consider me macho, or even a ski jock. Not all would say that I was even a good skier. But all would say I was an avid skier.

Any of them that have seen me in powder would say I LOVE powder. It is that for which I ski trees.

I was just pointing out that the other side of what you are proposing is to ruin lines that people are already skiing.

You can look at only one side of a proposal, but that doesn't make it the only side that is valid. I was pointing the other side out.

[random_ski_guy]

Make one up. Where did you think I got mine? At the cool macho platitude store?

Funny.

Actually, of those who know me in real life, and there are a fair number, here, I would guess none would consider me macho, or even a ski jock. Not all would say that I was even a good skier. But all would say I was an avid skier.

Any of them that have seen me in powder would say I LOVE powder. It is that for which I ski trees.

I was just pointing out that the other side of what you are proposing is to ruin lines that people are already skiing.

You can look at only one side of a proposal, but that doesn't make it the only side that is valid. I was pointing the other side out.

Believe it or not, I hear ya. New trails will almost always ruin someone else's private stash, and for that I'm sorry

[freeheel_skier]

Believe it or not, I hear ya. New trails will almost always ruin someone else's private stash, and for that I'm sorry

What do you mean someone else's? It's mine! Mine! ALL MINE!