Sugarbush Tree / Glade Discussion

[smootharc]

Thought perhaps a thread dedicated to the art of SB bark eating might be interesting. There's been some discussion scattered about in threads on terrain expansion, etc. But nothing that centralizes this issue.....a complex one when you consider USFS, the Resort, and Skier wants, needs, access issues and regulations. Toss in new research (see Jay Appleton at MRG) on maintaining healthy tree/glade skiing, and we've got an inherently complex topic.

I'm not proposing discussion/exposure of tree lines and stashes here....cause I don't want to get beaten up by a pack of bearded glade beasts and their burly girlfriends ().

One thing that seems to be constantly running through my head as I ski and ride lifts at SB and look around at various areas readily visible is....."Gee, with a small bit of clean up that little tree zone would be sweet !". There seem to be almost limitless areas of potential for "tree micropods".....and thus frustration to see them choked with blow down and small brush/trees.

Testing one named gladed area last Saturday presented a place full of blow down and some very large obstacles on prime lines that weren't there last season. Bummer. I realize we haven't had lots of snow to load and cover many of these obstacles, so perhaps my observations are premature....but there were some obstacles that seemed like 400" of snow would be needed to cover them up.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind hearing from folks regarding tree/glade related aspects of the SB ski experience, past, present, and future approach and planning. There's obviously the "Jay Peak Approach" and "The Mad River Glen" approach, and in-between approaches.....and who's to say what's right for the near term and distant future. I do know that I love tree skiing, generally feel the natural snow in the trees is as good as it usually gets compared to any trails on a mountain, and that more tree skiing takes pressure off of regular trails for those who stick to them, and in some sense the lift system as it spreads and slows skiers down (well, in theory, anyways).

I feel it a huge marketing positive for a resort to be able to point to tree skiing / gladed areas....it says to the advanced + skier "We've got options.....lots and lots of interesting terrain options". A good thing that brings paying customers to the table.

One question: Are there any plans for summer volunteer work crew days guided by resort/forest service folks, at least to clear obvious blow downs in existing gladed areas ? Curious.

Anybody ?

[ski_it]

Good topic for discussion. Win responded to some of the issues raised last spring in the Alpine Zone Challenge and it's worth a reread: http://skiing.alpinezone.com/article...sort=sugarbush (#3)
I'm definitely interested in hearing an update. In particular, it was mentioned that a vegetation management plan was being written for USFS land that would be in place by this past fall and that a plan "more consistent with the MRG model" was in place for Sugarbush's private land (primarily Mt. Ellen). Practically speaking, it'd be great to know a bit about what maintenance work was done in the "named" wooded/glade ski areas over the off-season. I haven't been in the woods yet-- I sustained my fair share of base damage on-piste last week, let along going off-piste.

[Tin Woodsman]

One question: Are there any plans for summer volunteer work crew days guided by resort/forest service folks, at least to clear obvious blow downs in existing gladed areas ? Curious.

Anybody ?

I've asked about this a few times and the answer I've consistently received is something along the lines of, "It's complicated. We're moving in the right direction, but ti will take some time to sort out the internal and USFS issues before moving ahead."

Obviously with guys like Egan and Atkinson in positions of influence, that helps the cause. My preference would be to move beyond tha halfway house approach adopted with the new gladed terrain at North - i.e. on the map but not patrolled/opened/closed. I think the MRG approach really is the right way to go.

1) Adopt a resort-wide tree/glading/forestry strategy with first principles trnaslated down to specific goals and tactics

2) Utilize volunteer crews in the summer to aid in the effort to promote overall forestry health and expnasion/maintenance of gladed terrain.

3) Mutliple areas to focus on with this strategy:

- maintenance of existing on-map glades
- expansion and maintenance of off-map glades
- maintenance and repair of formerly gladed trails like Glade, Sleeper, Lower Moonshine, Lower Domino
- maintenance and repair of trail edges on snowmaking runs like Ripcord where the trail edges are moving ever outward due to snowmaking and high elevation exposure damage
- Slidebrook, and all the issues that come with it

Lots of thinking to be done here. This ain't no piddly 800 acre MRG. This is 4000 acres of VT badness to care for and preserve for future generations.

[castlerock]

I asked this question of Win and Co at the "community weekend" presentation 15 months ago. I got the "it's complicated" answer. Since then there has been nothing new that I know of on this subject.

Something needs to be done. I enjoy skiing here, but last year I went to Jay for the first time since 1968. ( I was seven then). It was fantastic. I had no local knowledge, but spent the whole day in the woods, with much more enjoyable conditions than I have had in 5 seasons skiing here every weekend (in the woods whenever possible). The woods (I am not talking about "on map" stuff) were in much better shape, safer to ski and much more fun than here.

If we could do something like that, there would be more lift tickets sold here....Jay is now drawing the regular dedicated non-pass holder skier from the Boston market. Most of the folks I used to ski with in the 80s are doing the Jay shuffle on the half dozen ski weekends they take a year. I know it isn't the Manhattan crowd that buys at Claybrook, but they are the dedicated lifelong skier, that spends money on lift tickets ESPECIALLY on non-holiday weekends.....

[walks]

Everythings better at Jay. Chain saws and Matches?

[ahm]

This is a very regular thread on so many skiing boards, and I find it quite interesting. Many post wanting to "know" about policies, terrain, "what's out there", etc, but few do I see doing the "sniff, sniff, study, study, hike, hike, approach to tree skiing. I think this may have something to do with "how much time you have available" as well as how "serious" a woods/backcountry skier you are.

I regularly ski the terrain that is available on both sides of the mountain, using Lincoln gap as one boundary and the end of Mt E as the other. This can extend to both sides of the ridge. However, be aware if you decide to drop over the ridge to the backside, that there is a great deal of logistics you need to deal with.

All of this brings me to the idiocy of my subject header which is "sniff, sniff, study, study, hike, hike" all before you drop in. These three things are essential to backcountry skiing that doesn't not involve ski areas and that crosses avalanche terrain. Consequently, I like to see woods skiers using a similar approach. It aids in safety, understanding, and will blossom into a much more serious approach to finding "the goods".

To find much of the skiable terrain that I use, I find by hiking the terrain in the off season and understanding the lines and brooks, I can maximize the "fun" factor once the snow falls. Obviously, when trail density is as low as it is at SB, the areas between the trails can offer some very nice woods skiing, and most of those routes are rather obvious and quite safe, short of hitting a tree or a toe tripper. This is why I would be careful going in "too early". My view is that there isn't really a snow pack and that unless we get a significant dump, woods skiing would be a bit risky at the moment. Not that I do not like risk, but if I am going to risk potential injury, the line is gonna be quite good and currently those lines just aren't available.

Smootharc talks about some new debris. Ahh, welcome to the "woods skiers world", the lines change every year, hence the hike, hike, part.

Tin would love a full blown Fortune 20 policy complete with powerpoint presentation. Unfortunately Tin, woods skiing doesn't really adopt well to a "hard and fast policy". It is one of those things that is passed down from generations, new lines are discovered and developed by a combination of old and new timers (just like Mike Douglass brought us a lot of new school skiing).

Obviously, for many they would love to do some of what TIn wants: organized trimming with volunteer crews etc. But some issues there surround liability and having people work on weekends, as that is when most maintenance get togethers are. So, bringing this "idea" to fruition is still a ways off.

I would encourage all tree skiers and those interested in discussing to have a more casual get together and see what comes of it...........................The Tav bar with some 60 min IPAs would be a great spot..........................I'll be there this Friday, and Sat (unless of course we have our in-depth snowmaking discussion that some have requested).

Right now I am finishing off my weekend preparations by covering my goretex jkt with polyurethane and installing wipers on my turbo fan googles so I am better equiped to handle the ncp that we seem to be getting this season so far...........until one of these pub sessions...................................it's back to W-O-R-K (which for me today is transition training.....................yep, as they transition, so will I.................to the ski area!!!

[ski_resort_observer]

This is a very regular thread on so many skiing boards, and I find it quite interesting. Many post wanting to "know" about policies, terrain, "what's out there", etc, but few do I see doing the "sniff, sniff, study, study, hike, hike, approach to tree skiing. I think this may have something to do with "how much time you have available" as well as how "serious" a woods/backcountry skier you are.

I regularly ski the terrain that is available on both sides of the mountain, using Lincoln gap as one boundary and the end of Mt E as the other. This can extend to both sides of the ridge. However, be aware if you decide to drop over the ridge to the backside, that there is a great deal of logistics you need to deal with.

All of this brings me to the idiocy of my subject header which is "sniff, sniff, study, study, hike, hike" all before you drop in. These three things are essential to backcountry skiing that doesn't not involve ski areas and that crosses avalanche terrain. Consequently, I like to see woods skiers using a similar approach. It aids in safety, understanding, and will blossom into a much more serious approach to finding "the goods".

To find much of the skiable terrain that I use, I find by hiking the terrain in the off season and understanding the lines and brooks, I can maximize the "fun" factor once the snow falls. Obviously, when trail density is as low as it is at SB, the areas between the trails can offer some very nice woods skiing, and most of those routes are rather obvious and quite safe, short of hitting a tree or a toe tripper. This is why I would be careful going in "too early". My view is that there isn't really a snow pack and that unless we get a significant dump, woods skiing would be a bit risky at the moment. Not that I do not like risk, but if I am going to risk potential injury, the line is gonna be quite good and currently those lines just aren't available.

Smootharc talks about some new debris. Ahh, welcome to the "woods skiers world", the lines change every year, hence the hike, hike, part.

Tin would love a full blown Fortune 20 policy complete with powerpoint presentation. Unfortunately Tin, woods skiing doesn't really adopt well to a "hard and fast policy". It is one of those things that is passed down from generations, new lines are discovered and developed by a combination of old and new timers (just like Mike Douglass brought us a lot of new school skiing).

Obviously, for many they would love to do some of what TIn wants: organized trimming with volunteer crews etc. But some issues there surround liability and having people work on weekends, as that is when most maintenance get togethers are. So, bringing this "idea" to fruition is still a ways off.

I would encourage all tree skiers and those interested in discussing to have a more casual get together and see what comes of it...........................The Tav bar with some 60 min IPAs would be a great spot..........................I'll be there this Friday, and Sat (unless of course we have our in-depth snowmaking discussion that some have requested).

Right now I am finishing off my weekend preparations by covering my goretex jkt with polyurethane and installing wipers on my turbo fan googles so I am better equiped to handle the ncp that we seem to be getting this season so far...........until one of these pub sessions...................................it's back to W-O-R-K (which for me today is transition training.....................yep, as they transition, so will I.................to the ski area!!!

AHM...this is the best post you have put up in awhile. You didn't mention Europe or South America once....

[noski]

AHM...this is the best post you have put up in awhile. You didn't mention Europe or South America once....

...or Puerto Rico!

[Tin Woodsman]

Tin would love a full blown Fortune 20 policy complete with powerpoint presentation. Unfortunately Tin, woods skiing doesn't really adopt well to a "hard and fast policy". It is one of those things that is passed down from generations, new lines are discovered and developed by a combination of old and new timers (just like Mike Douglass brought us a lot of new school skiing).

Obviously, for many they would love to do some of what TIn wants: organized trimming with volunteer crews etc. But some issues there surround liability and having people work on weekends, as that is when most maintenance get togethers are. So, bringing this "idea" to fruition is still a ways off.

Great post for sure, but I think you've misinterpreted what I'm looking for. No 20 page Powerpoint decks needed. First, a simple missions statement ala the one I just pulled from the Stark Mountain Foundation home page:

The Stark Mountain Foundation is a charitable 501(c)(3) organization, formed to support the Mad River Glen Cooperative's mission to "preserve and protect the forests and mountain ecosystem of Stark Mountain in order to provide skiing and other recreational access and to maintain the unique character of the area for present and future generations

Buttress that mission statement with a set of specific goals and plans focussing on the issues I mentioned above. From SBs perspective, yes this will take planning. But you wouldn't want to just stumble into this and make a bunch of mistakes before adding value - mistakes can have 50-70 year consequences up here.

Wouldn't it be great to have a policy in place enabling volunteer or mountain crews to go in and clean up and/or cordon off the mess that is Paradise Woods? How about the rehabilitation of the gladed aspects of Murphy's Tree and Sleeper? Given that snowmaking is one of the chielf culprits of the demise of the gladed skiing experience on those trails, you have to have holistic approach that moves beyond just roping off tree islands etc...

What you need is a simple set of principles which can embrace a multitude of strategies and tactics to confront the vast diversity of issues, problems and scenarios you'll face out on the hill. No master plans needed.

[HowieT2]

Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?
I understand that there are different approaches taken by Jay and MRG. There is an article in the current issue of Skiing magazine about the MRG approach. How is Jay different?

IMHO- tree skiing is the best thing to happen to the sport. But there can be too much of a good thing. Opening up too much terrain will inevitably lead to it's degradation. Leaving some blow downs allows for some renewal.

[ski_resort_observer]

Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?
I understand that there are different approaches taken by Jay and MRG. There is an article in the current issue of Skiing magazine about the MRG approach. How is Jay different?

IMHO- tree skiing is the best thing to happen to the sport. But there can be too much of a good thing. Opening up too much terrain will inevitably lead to it's degradation. Leaving some blow downs allows for some renewal.

I think Jay has had glades as part of their regular terrain for at least 40 years. I first skied it in the early 70's, loved it but don't remember any other resort having it as a "regular" thing at that time. Everyone else is now trying to catch up since it has become an "in thing" for the masses.

[Tin Woodsman]

Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?
I understand that there are different approaches taken by Jay and MRG. There is an article in the current issue of Skiing magazine about the MRG approach. How is Jay different?

IMHO- tree skiing is the best thing to happen to the sport. But there can be too much of a good thing. Opening up too much terrain will inevitably lead to it's degradation. Leaving some blow downs allows for some renewal.

Make no mistake that there are serious downsides to the Jay approach as well, specifically in relation to the glade skiing experience. Yes you'll get more people into the trees, but you'll end up with mogul runs in the woods, which is what you want to avoid. With its relatively modern lift system, this is what regularly happens at Jay. MRG is able to avoid this fate b/c there is only so much capacity on the Single and the Sunnyside Double. Even a mountain as large as SB would see its tree areas get swamped if SB were to publicize and bring on-map everything that's out there, given it's moden lift system.

Be careful what you wish for.

[castlerock]

Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?

We'll leave the snow amounts out of it, (but maybe it is the issue). But I felt there were two differences. One was the distinct lack of "toe trippers". Maybe it was due to the snow depth, maybe it wasn't.

The second was it felt like there was always an opening, the lines never closed out.

Those are the things that I'd like to see here. Some knock down of dead fall, and maybe a strategic pruning here or there. I would love to be part of it.

[Tin Woodsman]

Why is the tree skiing at Jay peak better than SB?

We'll leave the snow amounts out of it, (but maybe it is the issue). But I felt there were two differences. One was the distinct lack of "toe trippers". Maybe it was due to the snow depth, maybe it wasn't.

The second was it felt like there was always an opening, the lines never closed out.

Those are the things that I'd like to see here. Some knock down of dead fall, and maybe a strategic pruning here or there. I would love to be part of it.

If that's the case, then I'm on board with that.

Where do I sign up?

[HowieT2]

I've never skied Jay so I can't comment on what's there, but as far as toe tippers, that is merely a function of the snow depth. As for pruning at SB, I would argue that there should be less pruning. Look at what's happening in the woods off Paradise. It's getting too open and losing character.