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  1. #31
    Mike is right, (I was going to edit my post), but as I think about it, they used to open the top with much worse conditions than they do now.....


  2. #32

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    This seems to be what Sugarbush is doing right now, critical terrain that will get alot of use, will only be opened when it has decent cover, yet they have no problem opening non critical trails when they become skiable, or even yet durring the spring, stuff gets left open that is not entierly skiable. Two instances of this, I skiied the runout at the end of march of last year, and had to walk over about a 10' bare spot. I skiied birch run, and had to navigate through a foot wide maze down the final pitch. And agiain, this season, the tuesday after thanks giving, Upper Rim Run was skiable with about a 5' wide swatch down the very left of the trail on the top pitch. The top of eblow, was a maze, of dirt and snow. But there were some sweet corn bumps to be had, and if you were on Rock Skis, it was worth it.


    When ME reopened this season, they opened a day prior to the public opening for ASRA, and if there was enough snow for them, I think there was enough for any decent skier.

    It seems like, they are really into opening with good enough conditions, that people woudn't complain about thin cover on the one trail there is to be skied, but personaly, I really don't mind, as that's what rock skis are for.


    And again back to sneaxmaking......

    Why can't they just add at least one aditional pump, and compressor at MT Ellen, even just have hookups for rentals, like at L/P to bring in more capaicity to open terrain faster early on. Yes, the pond capacity is limited, but if you are going to convert a certain ammount of gallons of water into snow, you might as well do it in a given period of which it is actualy efficient, which would save money, and would allow for a greater net ammount of snow to be made throught the season. Running the guns when the temps suck is just a waste of money and energy, So having more capicity, would allow more snow to be made, durring the cold windows which are short and sparce early on. Just really being able to crank, that one 5 degree night, and produce some serious volume, is the time to make snow, and if you have such a window, it would make sense to really have the system to use it for all its worth.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by othripper
    Hmmmm,

    Back in the day, with the kids, I would park up top at North, unload kids and gear, then move the car down to a parking spot, and then walk up to the lodge.

    Mike
    That's what I do, but it would be great to not have to walk up the road when I do. When it's snowing or icy, that's not exactly a safe place to be given the incline of that road. Just a simple wooden stairway running up the middle of the hills separating the first 2-3 parking bays is what I'm talking about. Like I said, there's already one just like what I'm proposing between the drop off lot and the handicapped lot.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strat
    Quote Originally Posted by sugarboarder
    I guess \"snowmaking horsepower\" is one of the problems we still face here. Other mountains are able to pump WAY more snow in WAY less time and cover more ground than we can. It\'s too bad we have that limitation, especially this year.
    Haven't we spent multiple topics disproving this notion?
    I don't think we have. We might have disproved the notion that SB made less snow last year than in years past (though IMHO, the jury is out on this year) but the question of SBs overall firepower relative to other top tier area resorts like Stowe, K-Mart, Okemo, and Jay has yet to be discussed in full. With the possible exception of Jay Peak, I think SB will come up wanting in that comparison. If/when Clay Brook sells out and they can return to non-real estate priorities, this should be the #1 priority on the list.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    Quote Originally Posted by Strat
    Quote Originally Posted by sugarboarder
    I guess \"snowmaking horsepower\" is one of the problems we still face here. Other mountains are able to pump WAY more snow in WAY less time and cover more ground than we can. It\'s too bad we have that limitation, especially this year.
    Haven't we spent multiple topics disproving this notion?
    I don't think we have. We might have disproved the notion that SB made less snow last year than in years past (though IMHO, the jury is out on this year) but the question of SBs overall firepower relative to other top tier area resorts like Stowe, K-Mart, Okemo, and Jay has yet to be discussed in full. With the possible exception of Jay Peak, I think SB will come up wanting in that comparison. If/when Clay Brook sells out and they can return to non-real estate priorities, this should be the #1 priority on the list.
    Return Claybrook profits to increase snowmaking firepower - Amen Brother!

  6. #36

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    I am replying after some time to all these comments, so I probablly won't hit all the points. One thing that Hardy and Mike wing are doing with my full approval is concentrating and trying to put down quality snowmaking in a priority order. Temperatures affect not only the quality of what can be made but also the volume of the water that can be pumped. Just to give you one example from last week, one day we were able to put out 2,000 gallons a minute and the next day 3,000 a minute with the same guns running. Some other mountains will spread snow out on more trails, to just open, but we have chosen not to do that, and I have had many people over the past two weeks who have skied here and elsewhere comment on the better quality of the product here.

    ME and LP are not only separate systems, but they also have different permit conditions. Our water source at LP because of the Mad River Valley and our reservoir has much more water capacity than ME. Our system there is a grandfathered one which under today's guidelines would be more challenging to get and impossible to expand from the existing sources.

    There is no question that we would love to have more capacity, but that it not as easy as it may seem to some. Overall, I think the Mountain team did a very good job in a very challenging environment.

    As you know we attempt to open trails aggressively if we think they are safe and that is what you saw this past week after the snowfall when we opened Spillville, Ripcord, Paradise, Domino, The Mall, Twist, etc. Clearly these are for advanced skiers only, but they got a lot of traffic and made a lot of people happy - including me.

    Snowmaking is a very technical subject and challenging to answer totally in a forum. It there is the interest, I would be happy to have an apres ski discussion over a beer with anyone who would really like to dig into this in further depth.

  7. #37

    Snowmaking

    Quote Originally Posted by win
    ME and LP are not only separate systems, but they also have different permit conditions. Our water source at LP because of the Mad River Valley and our reservoir has much more water capacity than ME. Our system there is a grandfathered one which under today's guidelines would be more challenging to get and impossible to expand from the existing sources.
    I'm interested in the water situation. Is that what the real limit is.? I understand that you've (we've, as we are all in this together, to varying degrees!) invested in leased compressors. (So that part of the equation is "elastic").

    We know that the electricity supply can become economically onerous when it gets really cold.

    Thinking of that, is there an "efficiency point" for Snowmaking? Is it "the colder, the better" or does that assume that the other resources are unlimited?

    So in the end, is the water resource the one that is the true limit? And if that is the case, does it become the independent variable in the snowmaking efficiency calculation?

  8. #38

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    Christmas week observations

    I skied from 12/22 - 1/1 in all of the varied weather mother nature through at us. Knowing what the MT can produce (using all of the compressors) I was very impressed and happy with what the MT did! Not only did they blow as best a product that hour's tempature could produce but they ran the guns when ever the tempature was cold enough (even if it ment in publics faces)

    Every day there was something for everyone to play on. For us experts they managed to open something fun for us...EVERY DAY. We where the first to open natural trails!!!!!!! Hats off. (other MTs would not have opened them becouse they feel their clients would have thought it was to rocky....but we like...no love to ski natural snow even if it is a little thin)

    Great job!! Thanks.

    PS Mother nature helped too....got 2nd chair up Heaven's Gate on Saturday and was one of the first down Paridice....KNEE DEEP! Our first powder day of the 2006-2007 season!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by win
    I am replying after some time to all these comments, so I probablly won't hit all the points. One thing that Hardy and Mike wing are doing with my full approval is concentrating and trying to put down quality snowmaking in a priority order. Temperatures affect not only the quality of what can be made but also the volume of the water that can be pumped. Just to give you one example from last week, one day we were able to put out 2,000 gallons a minute and the next day 3,000 a minute with the same guns running. Some other mountains will spread snow out on more trails, to just open, but we have chosen not to do that, and I have had many people over the past two weeks who have skied here and elsewhere comment on the better quality of the product here.
    I agree this is the right approach, but in certain situations it might make sense to adjust the strategy. For example, until the recent cold weather and snow, I would argue that it would be much better to spend a night creating another way around the Mainstream bottleneck into Times Sq than it would be to add a few more inches of base to Rim Run. That area was really bad until the latter half of the holiday week and was quite dangerous, IMO.

    ME and LP are not only separate systems, but they also have different permit conditions. Our water source at LP because of the Mad River Valley and our reservoir has much more water capacity than ME. Our system there is a grandfathered one which under today's guidelines would be more challenging to get and impossible to expand from the existing sources.

    There is no question that we would love to have more capacity, but that it not as easy as it may seem to some. Overall, I think the Mountain team did a very good job in a very challenging environment.
    When I talk about investing back into snowmaking, I am specifically referring to the completing the permitted interconnection of the two separate systems at the resorts as ASC had planned and then supplementing that with more compressor firepower as needed. Obviously this would cost a fair bit, so I hope no one gets the idea that this is some sort of low-hanging fruit. Regardless, this really should be near the top of the priority list once Clay Brook sales are put to bed. For all the huffing and puffing about the lift system etc... here, I'd be surprised if most people don't agree that this is the most pressing on-mountain need.

    As you know we attempt to open trails aggressively if we think they are safe and that is what you saw this past week after the snowfall when we opened Spillville, Ripcord, Paradise, Domino, The Mall, Twist, etc. Clearly these are for advanced skiers only, but they got a lot of traffic and made a lot of people happy - including me.
    Love that policy - don't change a thing!

    Snowmaking is a very technical subject and challenging to answer totally in a forum. It there is the interest, I would be happy to have an apres ski discussion over a beer with anyone who would really like to dig into this in further depth.
    But then people like me couldn't sit around in our internet arm chairs and wax poetic about these things in a completely uninformed and idealistic manner! And what fun would that be?

  10. #40

    Re: Christmas week observations

    Quote Originally Posted by Treeskier
    PS Mother nature helped too....got 2nd chair up Heaven's Gate on Saturday and was one of the first down Paridice....KNEE DEEP! Our first powder day of the 2006-2007 season!
    I thought I got second chair on HG JK

    Freshies were to be had back in October ....I know the lifts weren't running back then. But I thought the ski season started when the trails have snow on them?
    "Quietly Heartbroken Tennis Player."

  11. #41

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    I suggest it was deeper Saturday then in Oct.. Anything under 2' is just snow not powder turns. Over 2 feet the resistance gives you a whole differant ski experience.

  12. #42

    That second HG chair was crowded, cause....

    ....I was on it, too ! But maybe I was just lost in space. Certainly lost something crucial on Paradise just a few moments later, including almost my mind !

  13. #43

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    Wow, an in-depth conversation on snowmaking.................

    This I would love to hear, in fact I'll buy the beers. I'd love nothing more than to participate in this discussion. So, just name the place Win.

    Snowmaking is a mixture of art and science. Since the "art" part is a bit more difficult to control, the "science" part becomes the obvious lever to adjust to ensure that the highest quality product is produced in the most efficient and cost effect way--the standard "issue" for all manufacturing facilities. Problem is, most ski areas don't have an engineering group on staff to optimize the snowmaking system like a typical large scale manufacturer does--but a ski area "makes" 1000s of metric tons of "product" each season. By taking a hard look at your "manufacturing" practices, using real data (utilities utilization trend charts (electrical/water), T & RH trend charts, statistical sampling of base depths, etc) I think you could go a long way in making the system "spin like a top". When you get right down to it, snowmaking is "crystal" manufacturing. Problem is, you have "numerous manufacturing facilities" (each gun is in reality its own "crystalizer") opperating differently due to location, wind, and differences in real time water flow. This is why I feel there are some ways to better understand and then optimize the snowmaking system.....................

  14. #44

    OK, Al's buying. I'm in

    When should it be?

  15. #45

    Join Date
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    When should it be...............

    The unofficial one can be at the Tav this coming Friday around 6 pm for anyone who skis on Friday. There is often a lot of arm chair discussion and some engineering speak on snow making during that time period, unless it dumps and then it is all good.
    The official can be in the CR pub any of the next Saturdays. I'd love to have it this Sat, that way SB staff is free on the busy MLK weekend. I can do Sunday as well, but my wife will need the giants game on this Sun in the CR pub (it is the 4:30 game).

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