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  1. #1

    Sugarbush Lift System

    I'm curious as to what you all think of the lift system at the Bush. Satisfied or not? Why?

    I'll start.



    I'm generally satisfied with the Bush's lift system, especially at Mt Ellen. But I do see room for improvement.

    Things I like:

    -ME lift layout is great for keeping lines down, with all of the mid-to-base and summit-to-mid and top of Northridge-bottom of Northridge options. Rarely more than 5-10 minute lines at any of the main lifts.
    -5 detachable quads for speedy travel (but remember, a high speed detachable quad does not put any more people on the mountain than a fixed grip quad. A quad is a quad, and puts 2400 people per hour up the hill no matter whether it's fixed grip or detach. No one seems to understand that. The chair spacing on a detachable chairlift is about twice that of a fixed grip quad, and therefore the uphill capacity is equal.).
    -Northridge Express. That is quite possibly the best chairlift in the east. A quick ride with easy access to some of the best terrain at the Bush.
    -Relatively wide chair spacing on the Summit quad which helps to keep the crowds down at the unload on the summit.
    -Castlerock double, Sunny D, and Valley House double have character and are neat lifts.
    -Slidebrook is a unique ride, and the longest chairlift in the world.

    Things I don't like:

    -LP lift layout is illogical and difficult to get to the summit. No matter how you look at it, you have to ski a trail or two to get to Heaven's Gate. Not a big deal, but it would be nice if it were a little easier.
    -No top to bottom lift. C'mon... the liftline is already there (Organgrinder). Even though lines at T2B lifts are usually longer, one T2B option at the Bush would certainly be nice.
    -No gondola. If we want to rank among the best, we need a gondola. Even a four person would suffice.
    -Slidebrook express can be a very cold and windy ride (on the 1 or 2 days it actually runs ). Why not alternate every third chair with gondola cabins? The terminals, towers, and sheave trains were originally designed to gondola specs. Just grab a few gondola cabins and you've solved the cold/wind issues. It would be much more comfortable and much safer in the event of a breakdown.
    -Lack of real surface lifts. I'm a huge proponent of the old detachable Poma F-12 platters. They would pick you right up off the ground and provide quick access to great terrain. They're cheaper than dirt to buy and install (comparatively speaking) and could open up some great intermediate/expert areas. Also, when installed properly, they are completely unaffected by wind. Say goodbye to windhold and hello to fast access to great terrain.
    -Inverness. I hate it. Slow...slow...slow...slow. 'Nuff said. Those fixed grip quads can spin up to 550-600 ft/min. I would guess that chair spins a max of 350-400 ft/min. 10+ minutes to go 1250' vertical. That's pretty rough.
    -Summit could spin a bit faster too.

    I'm sure I'll think of more later, but that's enough to get started .

    What do you guys think about it?

  2. #2
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    Re: Sugarbush Lift System

    Quote Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster
    I'm curious as to what you all think of the lift system at the Bush. Satisfied or not? Why?

    -ME lift layout is great for keeping lines down, with all of the mid-to-base and summit-to-mid and top of Northridge-bottom of Northridge options. Rarely more than 5-10 minute lines at any of the main lifts.
    -5 detachable quads for speedy travel (but remember, a high speed detachable quad does not put any more people on the mountain than a fixed grip quad. A quad is a quad, and puts 2400 people per hour up the hill no matter whether it's fixed grip or detach. No one seems to understand that. The chair spacing on a detachable chairlift is about twice that of a fixed grip quad, and therefore the uphill capacity is equal.).
    -Northridge Express. That is quite possibly the best chairlift in the east. A quick ride with easy access to some of the best terrain at the Bush.
    -Relatively wide chair spacing on the Summit quad which helps to keep the crowds down at the unload on the summit.
    -Castlerock double, Sunny D, and Valley House double have character and are neat lifts.
    -Slidebrook is a unique ride, and the longest chairlift in the world.

    Things I don't like:

    -LP lift layout is illogical and difficult to get to the summit. No matter how you look at it, you have to ski a trail or two to get to Heaven's Gate. Not a big deal, but it would be nice if it were a little easier.
    -No top to bottom lift. C'mon... the liftline is already there (Organgrinder). Even though lines at T2B lifts are usually longer, one T2B option at the Bush would certainly be nice.
    -No gondola. If we want to rank among the best, we need a gondola. Even a four person would suffice.
    -Slidebrook express can be a very cold and windy ride (on the 1 or 2 days it actually runs ). Why not alternate every third chair with gondola cabins? The terminals, towers, and sheave trains were originally designed to gondola specs. Just grab a few gondola cabins and you've solved the cold/wind issues. It would be much more comfortable and much safer in the event of a breakdown.
    -Lack of real surface lifts. I'm a huge proponent of the old detachable Poma F-12 platters. They would pick you right up off the ground and provide quick access to great terrain. They're cheaper than dirt to buy and install (comparatively speaking) and could open up some great intermediate/expert areas. Also, when installed properly, they are completely unaffected by wind. Say goodbye to windhold and hello to fast access to great terrain.
    -Inverness. I hate it. Slow...slow...slow...slow. 'Nuff said. Those fixed grip quads can spin up to 550-600 ft/min. I would guess that chair spins a max of 350-400 ft/min. 10+ minutes to go 1250' vertical. That's pretty rough.
    -Summit could spin a bit faster too.

    I'm sure I'll think of more later, but that's enough to get started .

    What do you guys think about it?
    Interesting thread.

    1) I echo your thoughts on the good things about the system. That said, I think you don't give LP nearly enough credit. The system at LP is, IMHO, the most efficient I've seen in New Engladn w/r/t speading crowds out. Even on the busiest of days, you're rarely going to have a >10 minute liftline outside of Castlerock. The topography and lift system really help to spread everyone out.

    2) Among the bigger mountains in VT (Stratton, Okemo, Mt. Snow, K-Mart, SB, MRG, Bolton, Stowe, Smuggs, Burke, Jay) only 6/11 have a T2B lift. I don't think it's a necessity if the topography suggests an alternative layout, which is most certainly the case at SB. The more important factor for me is skiable verticle off your core lifts. With Super Bravo, Heaven's Gate, Castlerock, North Ridge, Valley House, and the GMX all providing more than 1300' each, I'm pretty happy with the bang for the buck.

    3) The layout at LP is unfortunate not b/c it's confusing to get to the top, but rather b/c the topography and most tourists' lack of routefinding skills and imagination means that Downspout = Deathspout by 10:45 most busy days. IIRC, ASC had a permitted plan to cut an additional run in the current location of Egan's Woods that they never followed through on. While this would have destroyed a nice stash, it would have eased the pressure on Downspout. For some reason, people are too stupid to take Lower OG or Jester to HG Traverse. No sweat off my back. This is an issue that won't quickly go away. Perhaps better signage is part of the solution. Have some sort of sign with an arrow pointing to the "Easiest Way Down to HG" or some such. Might take a lot of gapers off Downspout.

    4) The upgrade to VH will help a lot here, IMHO. It's a niche lift right now b/c of the hike to get to it. Tourists no likey. If it's brought down to the base and doesn't have those "scary" erector set towers (which I love), it will draw more people to the VH pod for doing laps, alleviating a bit of the pressure on Downspout.

    5) You are dead on with the criticism of the Inverness lift. I'd spend a lot more time over there if that thing wasn't so bloody slow. No reason for it to be this way that I can think of. The quad is anyway overkill for the miniscule crowds that pod gets.

    6) I LOVE the suggestion for SBX. Have every third or fourth carrier be a gondola cabin and you solve your problem on cold/windy days, though I suspect it would now cost more to run b/c it takes more people to deal with a gondi than a chair. Like so many things in a business - a trade-off between cost and customer service.

    7) As for the poma lifts - where would you suggest they place them? No obvious locations jump out at me that would serve the on-map trails system.

  3. #3
    I agree in so many places... other thoughts...

    The Downspout issue is one that is raised again and again, and the problem is that there's no easy solution... I mean watching today I could see that half of the people propelling themselves down the trail (yes, that includes the guy in the baseball cap and jeans carrying his daughter's skis down while she walks... *shudder*...) aren't even planning to go to Heaven's Gate... they stand around the lift line, taking up space before eventually deciding just to head down to the lodge for soda... It seems that people have some preoccupation to head down that big wide trail that they don't have to read a sign to get to... "Hey let's get off the lift, go straight, oh look here we are!" Of course there's also all the traffic funneling off of Upper Organgrinder as well, and it just adds to the chaos. Heaven's Gate Traverse is not a great alternative though... it was getting used heavily from what I saw while taking it today, and frankly any more traffic on that trail would completely overload it, and you'd see accidents/injuries/people falling down the bank on skier's right, and other issues. I think the best solution would be to cut a nice wide trail down directly from the flat at the Super Bravo terminus that would end up at the mid-Organgrinder flat... that would definitely open up that area a bit and provide another direction for people to go instead of pushing them all down towards Downspout... this would probably create some additional traffic concerns in that area, which can also get a bit hectic, but I think providing another route for people to take right off the top would ease the Downspout pressure...

    Though it would hurt the woods stash, cutting a trail through Lew's Line would also alleviate a lot of the Downspout congestion... the trail map is deceiving but there's actually a huge swath of terrain in there... if a trail paralleling Downspout was cut through there, also emptying out at the base of Heaven's Gate, traffic would certainly spread out... it wouldn't even have to impact Lew's, if I recall correctly the cleared glade area of Lew's is very close to the entrance to Domino, and the trail I'm proposing would start across Organgrinder from the tiny piece of Lower Jester that parallels Domino Chute through that area... yes, there are some nice glades in this area as well, but I think even the biggest treelovers would appreciate a safer, better-skiing Downspout...

    Tin, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying in one regard here though; are you saying there needs to be an alternative for those heading to Heaven's Gate via Downspout, or just that we need more trail work in general to spread people out? Obviously a trail through Egan's Woods (one of which there actually was a while ago, as I'm sure you know) wouldn't help the Heaven's Gate situation at all... did you mean Lew's Line?
    Ithaca is (not) Vermont (but it is gorges)

  4. #4
    Tin:

    You make some good points. I didn't want to quote your whole post because it would take up several pages!

    To some extent, I agree with your thoughts on the T2B lift, but still think that it would make sense, especially if it was a gondola. What you said about vertical is true. However, a T2B gondola on Organgrinder (where the old one was) would provide quite a few quality vertical feet, and would solve the problem of being the only significant resort in the area without a gondola.

    While I agree with your comments about "tourists' lack of routefinding skills and imagination," I'm forced to remind you that those unimaginative tourists are how the ski industry makes money. As much as I hate to admit it, we locals and regulars (pass holders) are not the only revenue-makers for the resort. The tourists have to be catered to enough that they are happy. If I were the only person skiing the mountain I wouldn't worry about the lift layout. However, I try to think of the entire market instead of my own microcosm.

    Regarding pomas... one thought would be between Cliffs and Tumbler, terminating near the Glen House. It would provide access to 900-1000 vertical feet of solid expert terrain. Then there would be no need for a) skiing the runout (Straight Shot) to the base of GMX or b) riding Northridge and skiing something up there that you don't want to just to get to the aforementioned terrain. I just might quit riding all of the other lifts. I would be satisfied skiing on Tumbler, Cliffs, Hammerhead, and Encore all day long. I have a few other thoughts as well, and some thoughts of where surface lifts could fit into some simple and quick terrain expansion at Mt. Ellen. But I'll leave it at that for now.

  5. #5
    Maestro, with this post/poll I see you are clearly more than a musician. Perhaps we add part critic, part rabblerouser too.

    I have some thoughts on the lift system and downspout to toss about. I just can't do it now. I will start with this, I think the lift system, for the most part, is perfectly fine as it is. Money needs to be spent on increased snowmaking power first, a couple trail adjustments second and then perhaps some lifts.

    More to come.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by random_ski_guy
    Maestro, with this post/poll I see you are clearly more than a musician. Perhaps we add part critic, part rabblerouser too.
    I do a little bit of everything

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strat
    I agree in so many places... other thoughts...

    The Downspout issue is one that is raised again and again, and the problem is that there's no easy solution... I mean watching today I could see that half of the people propelling themselves down the trail (yes, that includes the guy in the baseball cap and jeans carrying his daughter's skis down while she walks... *shudder*...) aren't even planning to go to Heaven's Gate... they stand around the lift line, taking up space before eventually deciding just to head down to the lodge for soda... It seems that people have some preoccupation to head down that big wide trail that they don't have to read a sign to get to... "Hey let's get off the lift, go straight, oh look here we are!" Of course there's also all the traffic funneling off of Upper Organgrinder as well, and it just adds to the chaos. Heaven's Gate Traverse is not a great alternative though... it was getting used heavily from what I saw while taking it today, and frankly any more traffic on that trail would completely overload it, and you'd see accidents/injuries/people falling down the bank on skier's right, and other issues.
    Really? I've traveled that run a lot and never thought it was really close to its carrying capacity. Could stand to be re-graded a bit between the big left turn and Domino. I wans't there so I can't attest to what you saw. In my experience, crowding on this trail is a rare phenomenon.

    I think the best solution would be to cut a nice wide trail down directly from the flat at the Super Bravo terminus that would end up at the mid-Organgrinder flat... that would definitely open up that area a bit and provide another direction for people to go instead of pushing them all down towards Downspout... this would probably create some additional traffic concerns in that area, which can also get a bit hectic, but I think providing another route for people to take right off the top would ease the Downspout pressure...
    IMHO, this trail already exists, and it's called Domino Chute. Between Domino Chute and that small portion fo Lower Jester, there are two opportunities to add increased signage pointing the easiest way towards A) the base or B) Heaven's Gate. Right now, they are afterthoughts that most people ski by on the way to something less interesting - their loss.

    Though it would hurt the woods stash, cutting a trail through Lew's Line would also alleviate a lot of the Downspout congestion... the trail map is deceiving but there's actually a huge swath of terrain in there... if a trail paralleling Downspout was cut through there, also emptying out at the base of Heaven's Gate, traffic would certainly spread out... it wouldn't even have to impact Lew's, if I recall correctly the cleared glade area of Lew's is very close to the entrance to Domino, and the trail I'm proposing would start across Organgrinder from the tiny piece of Lower Jester that parallels Domino Chute through that area... yes, there are some nice glades in this area as well, but I think even the biggest treelovers would appreciate a safer, better-skiing Downspout...
    There's definitely plenty of room in there, though no matter where you cut, you'll probably be destroying a stash. You're specifically talking about that little basin/streambed/depression just skier's right of Downspout, right?

    Tin, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying in one regard here though; are you saying there needs to be an alternative for those heading to Heaven's Gate via Downspout, or just that we need more trail work in general to spread people out? Obviously a trail through Egan's Woods (one of which there actually was a while ago, as I'm sure you know) wouldn't help the Heaven's Gate situation at all... did you mean Lew's Line?
    At the end of the day, there are two primary choices. Either cut a run into that area or use a combination of other tactics to achieve the same result. Cutting a run is the most simple solution, but where do you cut it and what stash do you destroy? My preference would be to use better signage (at top of the Bravo, near Allyn's, and at the entrance to Domino chute and Lower Jester), perhaps start grooming Domino again, and wait to see what happens when the new VH chair goes in.

    Oh yeah, I butchered the Egan's vs Lew's Line thing. Tough day at work.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by random_ski_guy
    I have some thoughts on the lift system and downspout to toss about. I just can't do it now. I will start with this, I think the lift system, for the most part, is perfectly fine as it is. Money needs to be spent on increased snowmaking power first, a couple trail adjustments second and then perhaps some lifts.

    More to come.
    Agreed 100%

  9. #9
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    [quote="BushMogulMaster"]Tin:

    To some extent, I agree with your thoughts on the T2B lift, but still think that it would make sense, especially if it was a gondola. What you said about vertical is true. However, a T2B gondola on Organgrinder (where the old one was) would provide quite a few quality vertical feet, and would solve the problem of being the only significant resort in the area without a gondola. [quote]

    True, but think about the downside - you would completely overload that trail pod with people coming off HG and the new Gondi. Most busy days, Jester and OG are crowded as it is. Paradise and Spills can't handle much more in the way of crowds b/c they are natural snow and are anyway too tough for most people to handle. Ripcord is one of the last snowmaking trails to get attention and is already an ice sheet most days. Win has consistently stated that he and the Ops team are kenly aware of the balance between uphill and downhill capacity in any single area of the mountain. When you consider that many people taking the gondola would be intermediates, you quickly runout of options for where to put them. Unless they want to cut some nice, winding trails into the Bradley Brook basin, I don't think that's happening any time soon. It's not like the area between Paradise and Castlerock offers much hope for downhill carrying capacity.

    Of course you could always just remove the HG triple to "solve" that problem, but that would be folly, IMHO. An upper elevation triple helps keep the skier numbers appropriate via self selection - no pansies need apply for a ride on an exposed upper mountain lift. It also helps for early and late season when conditions aren't great down low. In sum, I just down see the gondi being an option from a plain ops perspective, to say nothing of the $8-10MM it would take to install - that's a lot of coin for a single resort ownership group.

    While I agree with your comments about "tourists' lack of routefinding skills and imagination," I'm forced to remind you that those unimaginative tourists are how the ski industry makes money. As much as I hate to admit it, we locals and regulars (pass holders) are not the only revenue-makers for the resort. The tourists have to be catered to enough that they are happy. If I were the only person skiing the mountain I wouldn't worry about the lift layout. However, I try to think of the entire market instead of my own microcosm.
    Very good point. It's not the locals buying units in Clay Brook. Still, I think better signage could help alleviate this issue. Also, as mentioned elsewhere, the VH lift extension will be a big bonus.

    Regarding pomas... one thought would be between Cliffs and Tumbler, terminating near the Glen House. It would provide access to 900-1000 vertical feet of solid expert terrain. Then there would be no need for a) skiing the runout (Straight Shot) to the base of GMX or b) riding Northridge and skiing something up there that you don't want to just to get to the aforementioned terrain. I just might quit riding all of the other lifts. I would be satisfied skiing on Tumbler, Cliffs, Hammerhead, and Encore all day long. I have a few other thoughts as well, and some thoughts of where surface lifts could fit into some simple and quick terrain expansion at Mt. Ellen. But I'll leave it at that for now.
    I don't see it for the Cliffs pod. The way I look at it, when your ridge NRX for the Cliffs pod, you get 700 vertical feet of some of the best cruising in VT for free. Heck, they don't always run NRX when the whole mtn could be covered by just Summit and GMX, so how often do you think this poma would be open. OTOH, your more cryptic second comment leads me to an obvious answer - a poma out of Lockwood Brook drainage where Lower FIS flattens out back up to the ridge somewhere between where SBX comes in and the mid-flats. If you could hop back on NRX or go directly to mid-flats (that would be one hell of a poma lift), you could start to do laps into that area in a much more effective way than you can now. Again, it would be logistically difficult - the base and possibly summit of the poma wouldn't new places to create and get to = more $$.

  10. #10
    Not going to quote because it would take up too much space, but I will respond to everything....

    Heaven's Gate Traverse is a narrow, flat trail... today it was heavily in use, by skiers and riders of many different abilities... quickly it turned into a traffic jam as a few little skiers on leashes took up the entire trail, while snowboarders with only their front foot strapped in had to deal with the more advanced, faster-traveling people coming up behind them... when the trail's clear it's a good idea to obtain some speed on Organgrinder and shoot in, trying to hold the velocity so you don't have to start propelling yourself manually, but while the trail is clogged it's really rather tough... the first section (before crossing Domino) is the narrower and worse section that I'm really referring to here, the section approaching Heaven's Gate isn't too bad...

    I agree that Domino Chute already exists for that purpose, and it's a heavily-used access way towards Lower Jester/Organgrinder, I just think that a chute right off the top of Super Bravo would even further alleviate this traffic...

    As for cutting near Lew's Line, I don't think it needs to go in that little depression/ravine thing, I think a bit more up the hill would be better, starting actually farther down Organgrinder... I can't 100% remember how the terrain looks there though...

    Yeah I mean really the easiest solution here would be to just make Domino a more accessible trail, and make the alternative way through Heaven's Gate be Domino > Heaven's Gate Traverse... obviously at this point in a season like this that isn't feasible, what with Domino being a natural snow trail, but that would probably be the most practical solution, in addition to increased signage...

    I mean I guess the crowds in all of these places won't be so severe when more of the mountain's open, just from what I saw today it feels like sudden action needs to be undertaken...
    Ithaca is (not) Vermont (but it is gorges)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    True, but think about the downside - you would completely overload that trail pod with people coming off HG and the new Gondi. Most busy days, Jester and OG are crowded as it is. Paradise and Spills can't handle much more in the way of crowds b/c they are natural snow and are anyway too tough for most people to handle. Ripcord is one of the last snowmaking trails to get attention and is already an ice sheet most days. Win has consistently stated that he and the Ops team are kenly aware of the balance between uphill and downhill capacity in any single area of the mountain. When you consider that many people taking the gondola would be intermediates, you quickly runout of options for where to put them. Unless they want to cut some nice, winding trails into the Bradley Brook basin, I don't think that's happening any time soon. It's not like the area between Paradise and Castlerock offers much hope for downhill carrying capacity.

    Of course you could always just remove the HG triple to "solve" that problem, but that would be folly, IMHO. An upper elevation triple helps keep the skier numbers appropriate via self selection - no pansies need apply for a ride on an exposed upper mountain lift. It also helps for early and late season when conditions aren't great down low. In sum, I just down see the gondi being an option from a plain ops perspective, to say nothing of the $8-10MM it would take to install - that's a lot of coin for a single resort ownership group.
    You've almost got me convinced

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
    I don't see it for the Cliffs pod. The way I look at it, when your ridge NRX for the Cliffs pod, you get 700 vertical feet of some of the best cruising in VT for free. Heck, they don't always run NRX when the whole mtn could be covered by just Summit and GMX, so how often do you think this poma would be open. OTOH, your more cryptic second comment leads me to an obvious answer - a poma out of Lockwood Brook drainage where Lower FIS flattens out back up to the ridge somewhere between where SBX comes in and the mid-flats. If you could hop back on NRX or go directly to mid-flats (that would be one hell of a poma lift), you could start to do laps into that area in a much more effective way than you can now. Again, it would be logistically difficult - the base and possibly summit of the poma wouldn't new places to create and get to = more $$.
    The only time NRX doesn't run sometimes is midweek, when no one is around. Even then it's a relatively rare occassion. It takes significantly less man power and money to operate a pomalift than it does a detach quad. I think, conditions permitting, it would run as much if not more than NRX.

    As for other thoughts on placement and expansion... someday I'll enlighten you all as to my ideas. This isn't the time yet. I'll remain cryptic and let you keep guessin.

  12. #12
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    Strat -

    I haven't seen HG traverse that bad, but if it's like you said, then that's obviously not a good thing. Still, that's rare in my experience. That run could probably do with a bit of widening and re-grading between OG and Domino, if only to make that part as wide as the part between Domino and HG.

    As for a potential new run, if it's not in that ravine, then it's either in Lew's Line (which is right in the middle of that woods area) or the woods between Lew's Line and Domino. No thanks on either of those two counts.

    I never saw Domino Chute as being particularly heavily used. If they slightly widened the skier's right side of the entrance, you'd probably draw more people that way - right now you can zip right by unless you're looking for it.

    As for grooming Domino, even when I mentioned it, it was with mixed feelings. They used to do it, and it wasn't as fun. And it's anyway difficult to do being a natural trail that always gets scrapy in spots as it is. Unless you install snowmaking on it, which is never a good solution IMHO, it's carrying capacity is pretty limited.

    In short, really no good solutions here.

  13. #13
    In terms of lifts I think the replacement of the VH double is the biggest improvement that can be made. The base is poorly located, it's slow and getting off is a nightmare. There is a lot of load to take off of Bravo with a new VH (quad?) that extends to base elevation.

    As for the downspout issue: I think the crowding is prominent now because of the dearth of open trails and no woods skiing. When there finally is some snow, it will be fine.

    Isn't the next lift expansion "dream" above Inverness?

  14. #14

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    Gondola would be fun, but completly retarded, at LP, besides just what we need at Sugarbush is a chairlift running up every freaking trail. I personaly like taking laps off of HG, provides good vertical, no runout, and alot of trail options. HG is slow, but isn't to bad, A faster lift would be a great thing, how about a custom detachable triple chair.

    Deathspout, belive it or not can be a nice trail when things aren't crowded, I think however, the solution is to replace and extend the VH lift, to put more traffic onto Snowball, Spring Fling, and Racers Edge, and with Snowball beeing so danm wide, I think that would work out nicley. But with the current VH lift only beeing run on weekends, and beeing an intimidating lift for intermediate skiers, its route isn't getting as much use as it should.

    I think there needs to be a second intermediate trail coming down from LP, I guess through the braddly brook basin. The state of Vermont is already 90% forested so cutting down a few hundred trees won't end the world. A long narrow winding cruiser (heh did somebody say jester?) just wide enogugh for snowmaking would be Ideal. This would also take alot of trafic off of jester, as it would be strait downhill of off HG, and wouldn't require crows footing to get to it. And did, I mention the possible tree skiing this trail could open up

    An Intermediate trail connecting Castlerock with North Lynx, might also incourage more upper intermediate, and advanced skiiers to make use of the Castlerock chair, giving them a route to chicken out on if they don't like what they see wh
    • en they get to the top.

      How about having all gondola cars on Slidebrook, then Sugarbush could advertise Slidebrook as beeing a High Speed interconnecting Gondola At least having gondola cars, would make that chair every bit as nice of a ride as the Mad Bus (if only it went by my house 8( ) That Idea could be what would make the Slidebrook Chair sucessfull, and actualy worth the bother.

      I see a nice hill comming down off of the Gatehouse area down to the Castlerock Chair with no trails on it other than the castlerock connection. How about at least another gladed crusier like sleeper. I don't know what the pitch is, but possibly even a black, have some expert offerings off of Gatehouse? I am talking about Steep, Narrow, Old School, Just wide enough for a Cat.

      Mount Ellen,

      The inveness chair is ridiculous, I think they could run it alot faster but they just don't have the balls to do so.

      I think M/E would be the place for a T2B gondola if you were to have one at Sugarbush, and a Two Stage Gonola would allow for Downloading. Then you could put the GMX on the Inverness, Use the Invernes to add a lift on the potential Pod Above that are. Although it would just be an f!@$ waste of money.

      How about adding Old FIS aka Airliner (the trail between FIS and Rimrun) to the map, and maintaining it. This could be Sugarbush's one triple black?

      I think a few surface lifts would be sick, it would also be cool to have something arround the glen house flats, and possibly a carpet (I hear they have 5 in storage at the golf course) that could be set up when they are downloading, to make it a bit easier to get back to the chair. (This could also be used as makeshift begining terrain early on)



      Snowmaking.

      Sugarbush makes almost enough snow overall, but they just don't have the capicity to open the mountain up. I think their should at least be a system that is capible of opening both mountains top to bottom 2 routes provided a week or so of good temps. That beeing jester and organgrinder t2b, and Rimrun, Elbow, with Cruiser, and The Cliffs, to Strait Shot.

      Overall power completly out of the picture, there needs to be much greater pumping capacity, and the two systems need to be interconected. The pumping capicity needs to be raised enough that at least an extra compressor (with hookup for rentals) could be added at Mt Ellen, and that low E guns could be used in the temps were good, and possibly perminantly installed on FIS and Exterminator, as well as extra hyrdands on Rimrun and Elbow, to allow more guns to be run durring a shorter window on those first priority trails.

      I know Win has said that they won't buy more Polecats, but how about about a sled mounted poleclat up arround the Glen House, and a sled mounted Viking arround times square as they have such a trow that they can cover those wide open spaces. And as they have their own compressors all they would need is the extra pumping capicity, and that would free up at least 5 or six guns to be used elsewhere.

      And agian how abou some Automation, I was talking to a snowmaker at M/E who had said that on the night shift they were short staffed and actaly running below capicity and having to take the guns off at the bottom because they could only manage the ones up top, and at that on less terrain then they could have potentialy covered. Is this possibly why things were T2B so late?

      Sugarbush needs more capicity, just look at the fact that we only opened on Rimrun and Elbow, closed the tueday after TG weekend, with horrible cover, and then thawed out completly, having to reopen a week later after 4 days of 24/7 snowmaking, again just on Rimrun and Elbow.

      K-Mart, that tuesday from what I hear was open T2B, with multible legitimate trails, nicly groomed. They made it through that week, and only had to close 1 day untill they could resurface. The truth is is that Sugarbush needs yet another major snowmaking expansion, this time not in terms of % of trails covered, but in terms of the ammount of trails that can be covered at any given time. It is time for Sugarbush to compelte their snowmaking system, and that will have to be a halmark of SV'S ownership.

      And, well somebody allwayse says, we didn't have all this new fangled snowmaking stuff back in the day, why do we need it now? Quite simpily, people expect it, people demand it, and people go online, go to Alpinezone.com and find out who has the best conditions, best coverege, and most terrain, and go there. Downloading in Mid december, provided a lack of natural snow is a bad thing, and supposedly from what I hear they were short of labor, and couln't run at full capicity durring the evening......

      Now to be polliticly incorrect.

      As much as Slidebrook is environmentally a sensitive area, I think at some point that bowl needs to be developed for skiing, the ammount of acreage is huge, and there is the potential for some sick sick terrain. If Sugarbush could cut trails in Slidebrook, Sugarbush would be, hands down the largest ski resort in the East, and one of the larger ones in the country. SV'S goal is to make SB VT'S ski destination again? As sensitive as the issue of cutting trails in Slidebrook is, I think the skiing it would offer would far out weigh the enviromental impacts. Afterall the state of Vermont is something like 90% forested, and would be 100% if everybody let their farm ovegrow in about 15 years, so its not like there are a shortage of forested areas. In addition impacts on Global Warming etc...., Its not like your cutting down the trees to make room for more cows and their flatus which the U.N now says is is more responible for Global Warming than Man. And, anyway there is plenty of room for bears on the other side of the mountain.

      I know going as far as to even pluck one tree branch from Slidebrook is completly off of the table to some people, but I think it is something that should be carefully looked at, and studied, and I think would have less of an impact on character of the area, than the monstrosity that is Claybrook.

      Anyway it is 3:43 or something, I have to crash for the night.......

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike451
    I know going as far as to even pluck one tree branch from Slidebrook is completly off of the table to some people, but I think it is something that should be carefully looked at, and studied, and I think would have less of an impact on character of the area, than the monstrosity that is Claybrook.
    I don't want to get into this debate, but I do want to mention that it has been carefully looked and and studied... really, if the state and the environmentalists were ever going to let that through, it was during the ASC era, and it didn't happen then... the Slide Brook lift was a compromise...
    Ithaca is (not) Vermont (but it is gorges)

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