Sugarbush Lift System

[ski_resort_observer]

Tin, you beat me to a topic I was going to bring up another time. What is the potential for making better use of that zone between Lower FIS and Tumbler.

And where does Sugarbush's special use permit end and the Slide Brook zone begin? Perhaps Atkinson can answer this. Perhaps Lower FIS is indeed in the Slide Brook Area but by grandfather clause. If not, then we have more to dicuss about developing this pocket (with trails & glades, not houses).

Enough with the hypothetical chainsaw for tonight - Random.

USFS land doesn't begin until past Lower FIS. As far as what is considered the Slide Brook, I'm 99% sure that that land does not start until past Lockwood Brook to the South, and Below Lower FIS to the East. But perhaps someone knows more about it than I do...

It's more complicated than you could possible imagine. There is some interesting history about how the Bush originally got the right to go ahead to develope in circa 1956.

I don't remember the details, hopefully someone can interject here but from what I remember the huge chunk of land from Bread Loaf/Middlebury Gap to the Bush was donated to the USFS by a landowner from Middlebury with the intention of keeping it forever wild. Apparently this was a gentleman's agreement, nothing was put down on paper legalwise.

When the Bush started developing the family of this benefactor felt totally dishonored and sued the USFS and lost. When the Bush proposed putting a lift across the basin, this old can of worms reared up again. Slidebrook is definately off-limits for any future developement. If anyone has more info on this historical info please post.

i'm certainly interested to know more about the land donation. fortunately our little project appears to be outside the USFS oversite. from what I can see on the topo maps, the USFS boundary is to the skiers right of lower FIS, so the Tumbler / Lower FIS land mass is on private land....me thinks

I bet that John knows about this and has a much better memory than me so hopefully he will chime in. On the USFS thing you have to realize that the issue is nothing like the property lines between two neighbors(human) when your dealing with wildlife issues. The Black Bears in the habitat they are trying to protect do not know anything about topo maps or boundary lines.

[random_ski_guy]

Tin, you beat me to a topic I was going to bring up another time. What is the potential for making better use of that zone between Lower FIS and Tumbler.

And where does Sugarbush's special use permit end and the Slide Brook zone begin? Perhaps Atkinson can answer this. Perhaps Lower FIS is indeed in the Slide Brook Area but by grandfather clause. If not, then we have more to dicuss about developing this pocket (with trails & glades, not houses).

Enough with the hypothetical chainsaw for tonight - Random.

USFS land doesn't begin until past Lower FIS. As far as what is considered the Slide Brook, I'm 99% sure that that land does not start until past Lockwood Brook to the South, and Below Lower FIS to the East. But perhaps someone knows more about it than I do...

It's more complicated than you could possible imagine. There is some interesting history about how the Bush originally got the right to go ahead to develope in circa 1956.

I don't remember the details, hopefully someone can interject here but from what I remember the huge chunk of land from Bread Loaf/Middlebury Gap to the Bush was donated to the USFS by a landowner from Middlebury with the intention of keeping it forever wild. Apparently this was a gentleman's agreement, nothing was put down on paper legalwise.

When the Bush started developing the family of this benefactor felt totally dishonored and sued the USFS and lost. When the Bush proposed putting a lift across the basin, this old can of worms reared up again. Slidebrook is definately off-limits for any future developement. If anyone has more info on this historical info please post.

i'm certainly interested to know more about the land donation. fortunately our little project appears to be outside the USFS oversite. from what I can see on the topo maps, the USFS boundary is to the skiers right of lower FIS, so the Tumbler / Lower FIS land mass is on private land....me thinks

I bet that John knows about this and has a much better memory than me so hopefully he will chime in. On the USFS thing you have to realize that the issue is nothing like the property lines between two neighbors(human) when your dealing with wildlife issues. The Black Bears in the habitat they are trying to protect do not know anything about topo maps or boundary lines.

Black bears eh? Its funny how exotic black bears where 50 years ago and today, no big deal. Black bears moved into my childhood home in Columbia County NY (NY/Mass line) 10-12 years ago. Now they are spreading down towards my current residence in lower CT. Even Wilton CT has had bear sittings this year. And forget CT, what about NJ where they even have subtantial bear hunts now.

[ski_resort_observer]

Tin, you beat me to a topic I was going to bring up another time. What is the potential for making better use of that zone between Lower FIS and Tumbler.

And where does Sugarbush's special use permit end and the Slide Brook zone begin? Perhaps Atkinson can answer this. Perhaps Lower FIS is indeed in the Slide Brook Area but by grandfather clause. If not, then we have more to dicuss about developing this pocket (with trails & glades, not houses).

Enough with the hypothetical chainsaw for tonight - Random.

USFS land doesn't begin until past Lower FIS. As far as what is considered the Slide Brook, I'm 99% sure that that land does not start until past Lockwood Brook to the South, and Below Lower FIS to the East. But perhaps someone knows more about it than I do...

It's more complicated than you could possible imagine. There is some interesting history about how the Bush originally got the right to go ahead to develope in circa 1956.

I don't remember the details, hopefully someone can interject here but from what I remember the huge chunk of land from Bread Loaf/Middlebury Gap to the Bush was donated to the USFS by a landowner from Middlebury with the intention of keeping it forever wild. Apparently this was a gentleman's agreement, nothing was put down on paper legalwise.

When the Bush started developing the family of this benefactor felt totally dishonored and sued the USFS and lost. When the Bush proposed putting a lift across the basin, this old can of worms reared up again. Slidebrook is definately off-limits for any future developement. If anyone has more info on this historical info please post.

i'm certainly interested to know more about the land donation. fortunately our little project appears to be outside the USFS oversite. from what I can see on the topo maps, the USFS boundary is to the skiers right of lower FIS, so the Tumbler / Lower FIS land mass is on private land....me thinks

I bet that John knows about this and has a much better memory than me so hopefully he will chime in. On the USFS thing you have to realize that the issue is nothing like the property lines between two neighbors(human) when your dealing with wildlife issues. The Black Bears in the habitat they are trying to protect do not know anything about topo maps or boundary lines.

Black bears eh? Its funny how exotic black bears where 50 years ago and today, no big deal. Black bears moved into my childhood home in Columbia County NY (NY/Mass line) 10-12 years ago. Now they are spreading down towards my current residence in lower CT. Even Wilton CT has had bear sittings this year. And forget CT, what about NJ where they even have subtantial bear hunts now.

I think you have answered your own question. If you have too many bears than you have to have a hunt to manage them. If the numbers are decreasing, like in parts of Vermont, than you have to protect them, like in Slide Brook.

[random_ski_guy]

I don't think I've asked a question. I just made an observation with a rhetorical.

But now I will ask, are you sure bears are in decline in VT? any idea why their numbers are decreasing?

[ski_resort_observer]

I don't think I've asked a question. I just made an observation with a rhetorical.

But now I will ask, are you sure bears are in decline in VT? any idea why their numbers are decreasing?

lol..I was afraid you were going to ask me that. I don't have the numbers but the general reason for any species decline is generally a decrease of habitat, loss/decrease of food source, that kind of thing. As a newspaper photog out west for many years, including covering the re-introduction of wolves in Yellowstone(now that was a huge controversial issue) and a multitude of other wildlife issues, that's where my knowledge base is from.

The experts look at habitats not an entire state. Even if the numbers are stable for Vermont the Slide Basin habitat is considered critical and that's what we are talking about. When I get some time I will Google the Slide Brook lift but remember it was common knowledge and pointed to often in newspapers, tv news, etc that at the time this was the big concern when it was proposed and built. As I mentioned the Bush has to shut down the lift at a certain time in the spring so as to not disturb the bears as they emerge from hibernation.

[freeheel_skier]

I did read that the population in 2006 was strong.

Here is the link: http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pb...39/1024/NEWS04

I am speculating but, maybe there is a decline in the beechtree pop in the slidebrook basin? Can anyone answer this?

[ski_resort_observer]

Cool link...interesting info. Here is a link mentioning the bear thing...just schroll down to the part about the Bush.
http://www.skivermont.com/central/ethics.php?tid=56

RSG...if your interested in more info I just went to Google, typed in Slide Brook Express bears and came up with a ton of info...took all of 15 seconds. I don't mean to rag on you..okay...maybe alittle...but why can't you do this?....

[random_ski_guy]

SRO, gee wowie on your link. i've read that site already, a while back. i don't recall it having any specifics about a decline in the bear population as you mentioned.

i think i need to learn to tune your posts out and just sit back and soak up your nice photos. i'm not finding this constructive.

[Tin Woodsman]

Play nice, boys.

[ski_resort_observer]

That's okay but the link clearly mentions the critical bear habitat which you were questioning. Not a big deal. Do what works for you.

"Sugarbush installed signs around the resort that educate skiers on the fragility of high-altitude areas and the effects of human impacts. Lap-maps on the Slide Brook Express chair lift include information on biodiversity and geology of the Slide Brook area, which was designated as critical bear habitat. Access to this area is limited to small guided tours during the winter, when the bears are hibernating"

Glad you like my photos...positive comments are always appreciated.

[random_ski_guy]

there you go again, i have never questioned the existence of critical bear habitat in slide brook. where did i ever say that?

*****************

i do enjoy your photos. i'm grateful for your early season photo contributions.

[sasquatch]

I don't think I've asked a question. I just made an observation with a rhetorical.

But now I will ask, are you sure bears are in decline in VT? any idea why their numbers are decreasing?

It's Wal-Mart. It's putting Momma Bear and Poppa Bear out of business.

[Strat]

I don't think I've asked a question. I just made an observation with a rhetorical.

But now I will ask, are you sure bears are in decline in VT? any idea why their numbers are decreasing?

It's Wal-Mart. It's putting Momma Bear and Poppa Bear out of business.

Wal-Mart = Goldilocks?

[Lostone]

Black bears eh? Its funny how exotic black bears where 50 years ago and today, no big deal.

I think the point is that, tho it might not be a big deal in Ct or NJ, it is a big deal in Vermont.

As to whether that impacts the place you've decided we need a new trail, is yet to be determined.

I'm reminded by this... tiff of when I was young. My family used to collect various stamps and coupons, which you could turn in for various things. They had catalogs of these things and how many stamps you needed for the various things.

My brothers and I would take the catalogs and pick which things we wanted. The arguments would lead to fights. When our mother would find out what we were fighting about, she would be incredulous. She'd tell us neither was getting what we wanted. She had been planning on something entirely different.

Point is... don't fight over where the trail should be, or what it might impact. You don't get to decide what trails go where.

If you want to ski between Tumbler and Lower FIS... go ahead. Might be a touch bony at the moment, but it is on the resort, and therefore, you can, if you can. And if you can't, maybe you should get a little better. In other words, what I'm suggesting is rather than adjusting the mountain so you can ski it... why not adjust your abilities?

Join the Bush Pilot program. (next year ) Take one or two of John Egan's adventure clinics. Just drop down to the ALC and tell them you want to be able to ski between the trails, instead of on them.

You don't have to wreck the mountain to ski it.


Note: The above is my own personal opinion

[sugarboarder]

I don't think I've asked a question. I just made an observation with a rhetorical.

But now I will ask, are you sure bears are in decline in VT? any idea why their numbers are decreasing?

It's Wal-Mart. It's putting Momma Bear and Poppa Bear out of business.

Wal-Mart = Goldilocks?

Best kept secret at the big "W"...you didn't hear it from me...Goldilocks is the CEO...shhhh! She told me she wants to develop slide Brook and then make it a "discount" ski area.