Lincoln Peak snowmaking re: Claybrook

[arc1]

I'm wondering if there will be increased snowmaking capacity and coverage at South this winter to help spur Claybrook sales. I'm sure management is hoping Ma Nature will take care of it, but in the unlikely event that doesn't happen? Folks considering this kind of investment will want to see a whole lot more snowmaking than was going on last year. You know, I'll spend money if you'll spend money... I don't think the one trail at a time program is the kind of thing potential buyers are looking for.

Win, care to comment?

[Mike_451]

The capaicity at south seems to be decent, and from what I hear combined with North maxes out pumping capicity, and that from what I hear, draws all it can from the electrical grid.

It makes more sense to me to add more capicity to Glen Ellen, as first to open and last to close.

[ski_resort_observer]

draws all it can from the electrical grid.

I think alot of people are unaware of this.....it is a problem for the Bush. One of the many issues that SV has to deal with that I think people don't consider cause they don't know about them. Some resorts still use diesel engines as you might expect they have to be phased out due to carbon monoxide discharge.

These are problems that iMHO a few wind turbines could help with but trying to do that here in Vermont would be very dificult to do, probably closer to impossible but I am hopeful that will change down the road.

[Tin Woodsman]

I'm wondering if there will be increased snowmaking capacity and coverage at South this winter to help spur Claybrook sales. I'm sure management is hoping Ma Nature will take care of it, but in the unlikely event that doesn't happen? Folks considering this kind of investment will want to see a whole lot more snowmaking than was going on last year. You know, I'll spend money if you'll spend money... I don't think the one trail at a time program is the kind of thing potential buyers are looking for.

Win, care to comment?

From what I recall, Win stated that they blew more snow last year than any year in their history. Of course, much of that was by necessity, but the new low energy guns on Steins and Ripcord certainly helped. Does that mean they shouldn't try to enhance the system? Of course not. I'd love to see some more capacity at North in order to open earlier and close later. Overall, it does seem that the system as a whole isn't as robust as some of the peers to the south, though I'd put it up against anything north of Rt. 4. Maxing out the elecrtical grid is a problem, but can be alleviated by more low energy guns to replace older, inefficient guns. Also, last year there was only so much time to blow snow given the marginal temps for much of the winter.


Regardless, going back to your main point about snowmaking last year - you're simply off base. The facts don't support your claim, despite any anecdotal observations you may have made.

[win]

We have snowmaking on about 70% of the trails and where we don't (ie Castlerock, Twist, Moonshine, The Mall, Black Diamond, Hammerhead, etc.) we never would. Last year we made at least 20% more than the prior year. The problem was we made it, lost it, made it, lost it. It is all about the temperatures. I was actually very pleased with both the quantity and the quality of what we were able to make given the vicissitudes of Mother Nature.

Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen are separate system, so we will go all out at both whenever we need to and can. We do have electrical limitations from GMP at Lincoln Peak so we could not add another electric compressor, but by adding the more efficient nozzles that we did last year, we can do more with less and that proved itself out last year. One option is to run air and water pipes across Slidebrook which can move air and water back and forth as needed. This was permitted by ASC. It is a significant capital expenditure and might require some permit modifications, but it is one option which we will are looking at. Right now alternative energy is quite expensive, and I do not see it as a short term option. We did have some rented diesel compressors in past years which we only used part time. However, the nozzles we purchased last year allowed us to get rid of them without sacrificing production capacity, and it allowed us not to use this polluting fuel, which is important for all of us. The snowmaking system at Mount Ellen is a grandfathered one, and we can not add to it until we are able to create a reservoir like we have next to the Mad River for Lincoln Peak or we have an alternative source of water such as piping water from South. That said, our snowmaking capacity is good, we continue to upgrade the system each year, and the quality of team is greatly improved which means fewer mistakes, better planning and the right focus.

With respect to one trail at a time, this is not how we do it. Where and how much we make depends on the temperatures and the length of the trails and the needs. Consider the length and the acreage of Jester and Organgrinder which with temperatures we will often be on simultaneously if the temperatures allow. (The lower the temperature, the less energy needed and the more snow made). Some resort "spray and run". This looks good at the start of the day. Our goal is to put down quality and depth. If we had Killington's capacity we could obviously to more. They have a great system that was put in place years ago and benefit from the regulations at that time. To open this year, we could have covered more trails at Mount Ellen, but I think anyone who was on the mountain last weekend appreciated the quality of what was laid down. That was a conscious decision.

Sorry, long winded answer. Needless to say, the real stuff is always the best.

[arc1]

[quote="Tin Regardless, going back to your main point about snowmaking last year - you're simply off base. The facts don't support your claim, despite any anecdotal observations you may have made.[/quote

Off base? Are you kidding? As a point of reference, I heard that pre Thanksgiving Killington rented 31 generators and had 4 or 5 lifts open throughout the weekend. In the course of last winter I was at several other mtns in VT, all of which made way, way more snow than us.

[HowieT2]

Off base? Are you kidding? As a point of reference, I heard that pre Thanksgiving Killington rented 31 generators and had 4 or 5 lifts open throughout the weekend. In the course of last winter I was at several other mtns in VT, all of which made way, way more snow than us.

I was at K- mart on friday. They did in fact have 16 trails and 6 lifts running. I'd comment on the quality of the snow but I was too busy dodging traffic in camo.

[freeheel_skier]

I'm wondering if there will be increased snowmaking capacity and coverage at South this winter to help spur Claybrook sales. I'm sure management is hoping Ma Nature will take care of it, but in the unlikely event that doesn't happen? Folks considering this kind of investment will want to see a whole lot more snowmaking than was going on last year. You know, I'll spend money if you'll spend money... I don't think the one trail at a time program is the kind of thing potential buyers are looking for.

Win, care to comment?

I think you are off base because you need to read win's statement again. 20% is a huge increase. Yes people will come b/c of increased snowmaking. Killington has the a ginormous snowmaking system. Killington has the perception of having a ton of snow.......It is a quantity vs. quality thing. As for other places in Vermont having way more snow that the Bush.....I beg to differ. You are entitled to your opinion. I had the ME only pass last yr. and took the opportunity to do lots of day trips. Something I haven't done in years. I skiied Burke, Jay, Smuggs, Stowe, MRG...all are North of the bush. I noticed no difference in quantity of snow/man made snow. The only exception was Jay and Stowe....I skiied both after a natural snow event. I never considered venturing to K to see what their situation was like.
However, over the course of the winter I had some friends that work at K stay & ski @ my place (ME) and they were quite impressed with the quality/quantity of snow. They were suprised at the coverage. I will say that opinions on this subject will vary.

The fact is that Mother Nature never cut Vermont a break. If it snowed...2 days later it rained....then got cold again and everything was boiler plate. THat will not be the case this year!

[arc1]

c1"]I'm wondering if there will be increased snowmaking capacity and coverage at South this winter to help spur Claybrook sales. I'm sure management is hoping Ma Nature will take care of it, but in the unlikely event that doesn't happen? Folks considering this kind of investment will want to see a whole lot more snowmaking than was going on last year. You know, I'll spend money if you'll spend money... I don't think the one trail at a time program is the kind of thing potential buyers are looking for.

Win, care to comment?[/quote]

I think you are off base because you need to read win's statement again. 20% is a huge increase. Yes people will come b/c of increased snowmaking. Killington has the a ginormous snowmaking system. Killington has the perception of having a ton of snow.......It is a quantity vs. quality thing. As for other places in Vermont having way more snow that the Bush.....I beg to differ. You are entitled to your opinion. I had the ME only pass last yr. and took the opportunity to do lots of day trips. Something I haven't done in years. I skiied Burke, Jay, Smuggs, Stowe, MRG...all are North of the bush. I noticed no difference in quantity of snow/man made snow. The only exception was Jay and Stowe....I skiied both after a natural snow event. I never considered venturing to K to see what their situation was like.
However, over the course of the winter I had some friends that work at K stay & ski @ my place (ME) and they were quite impressed with the quality/quantity of snow. They were suprised at the coverage. I will say that opinions on this subject will vary.

The fact is that Mother Nature never cut Vermont a break. If it snowed...2 days later it rained....then got cold again and everything was boiler plate. THat will not be the case this year! [/quote])


For arguements sake, and since I can't get any work done today anyhow, the 20% increase may or may not be a huge thing. 2 years ago we had a lot more snow, so they didn't make so much. So 20% over whatever that was really isn't a lot.

The mountains I toured last year, not by my choice, , were Stowe, Mt. Snow, Okemo, Stratton, Killington and Whiteface. Very different than your group (which I'd prefer to ski, save Whiteface,Stowe and maybe Kmart on a quiet pow day).

My point, other than the fact that I'd like to see a bunch of rented compressors, is that people considering the big $$$ commitment of Claybrook will want to see a big commitment to making snow if Ullr is stingy.

Actually, I don't even care so much about that. I just want more snow. Maybe this weekend it starts.

[freeheel_skier]

here is an old topic regarding snowmaking from last year....this should shead some light on what kind of investment SV has put into snowmaking.

http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.p...r=asc&start=45


I believe it is a response from SV from another forum? Correct me if I am wrong.

[ski_resort_observer]

arc1.....I am sure there will be some folks that will feel the way you describe but I am also sure that SV is very sensitive to the expectations of any "potential buyer" at Claybrook so I would chalk up the expections your talking about as "unrealistic" knowing all the many factors SV has to take into account for their snowmaking plan.

Before SV the Bush opened South(LP) first with the same trail trilogy of Jester, Upper OG and Downspout(Deathspout) year after year. SV made a bold move when they took over to move the opening to ME. Putting it to the cost benefit test to opening more terrain, earlier, to intice Claybrook buyers adds up to a negetive. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with SV not wanting to meet each and every expectation a potential buyer might have, it just doesn't make sense in the big picture. BTW did you know Stratton is closed right now?

[freeheel_skier]

arc1.....I am sure there will be some folks that will feel that way but I am sure that SV is very sensitive to the expectations of any "potential buyer" at Claybrook but I would chalk up the expections your talking about as "unrealistic" knowing all the many factors SV has to take into account for their snowmaking plan.

Before SV the Bush to opened South(LP) first with the same trail trilogy of Jester, Upper OG and Downspout(Deathspout) year after year. SV made a bold move when they took over to move the opening to ME. Putting it to the cost benefit test to opening more terrain, earlier, to intice Claybrook buyers adds up to a negetive. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with SV not wanting to meet each and every expectation a potential buyer might have, it just doesn't make sense in the big picture. BTW did you know Stratton is closed right now?

Not that this is revelant....

I was suprised to see that Jackson Hole wasn't open yet either.

[arc1]

arc1.....I am sure there will be some folks that will feel the way you describe but I am also sure that SV is very sensitive to the expectations of any "potential buyer" at Claybrook so I would chalk up the expections your talking about as "unrealistic" knowing all the many factors SV has to take into account for their snowmaking plan.

Before SV the Bush opened South(LP) first with the same trail trilogy of Jester, Upper OG and Downspout(Deathspout) year after year. SV made a bold move when they took over to move the opening to ME. Putting it to the cost benefit test to opening more terrain, earlier, to intice Claybrook buyers adds up to a negetive. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with SV not wanting to meet each and every expectation a potential buyer might have, it just doesn't make sense in the big picture. BTW did you know Stratton is closed right now?

Yes, I do know it's closed. Trust me, I go there only when my son's schedule drags me there, same as Okemo.

[ski_resort_observer]

arc1.....I am sure there will be some folks that will feel that way but I am sure that SV is very sensitive to the expectations of any "potential buyer" at Claybrook but I would chalk up the expections your talking about as "unrealistic" knowing all the many factors SV has to take into account for their snowmaking plan.

Before SV the Bush to opened South(LP) first with the same trail trilogy of Jester, Upper OG and Downspout(Deathspout) year after year. SV made a bold move when they took over to move the opening to ME. Putting it to the cost benefit test to opening more terrain, earlier, to intice Claybrook buyers adds up to a negetive. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with SV not wanting to meet each and every expectation a potential buyer might have, it just doesn't make sense in the big picture. BTW did you know Stratton is closed right now?

Not that this is revelant....

I was suprised to see that Jackson Hole wasn't open yet either.

For business reasons it has always opened the second Sat in Dec. even if there is 5 feet of snow on the trails. This year they are, however, opening a week early. Alot of folks think it's cause of their permit from the NF but they can amend that anytime they want. JH is in a touchy spot for the next couple of winters without a tram, going to be interested in how that plays out.

[Tin Woodsman]

1) I don't understand why you'd compare SB to places like Stratton, Okemo, and Mt. Snow. Those places cater to different markets and offer a vastly different product. They receive a lot less natural snow and as a result they require world beating snowmaking systems to stay open and competitive. K-Mart is a different matter entirely, as they have their "niche" as the beat of the east and a pipe from the reservoir nearby. If they were so committed to providing the best product and most snowmaking possible, then why has their season shortened by two months over the last 15-20 years?

2) SB's main competitors are Stowe, Smuggs, Jay and I suppose MRG. Now you can probably throw Burke into the mix as well now that they are well capitalized. Among those places, only Stowe with their recent investments can even touch SB in terms of snowmaking capacity. Even then, as someone who skis both places frequently, I'm not prepared to argue that there is a substantial difference in the quantity or quality of snow they produce up there vs. SB.

3) It seems pretty clear from Win's comments that he realizes that the incremental improvements SV has made in the system thus far will, at some point, require a substantial capital investment to generate a step change in capacity (though not coverage, which is a good thing). While I think it's silly to expect that this year, given the entirely new base area (oh, that little thing?), I would be surprised if we didn't see something in this direction within the next five years. That said, they are admittedly constrained on electricity throughout the system by their supplier - that isn't something that can be easily or quickly remedied. Running a business is about priorities. ASC left the snowmaking system in pretty good shape (relative to what it had been at least) and SV has done a good job making incremental improvements). Right now, the focus is on Claybrook to help guarantee the future of Sugarbush - lift tickets alone are just about a loss leader for most resorts these days. Once that is in place, then move on to the next thing. Snowmaking imprvoements are presumably high on that list.