Anybody else feeling jumpy?

[Mtnlady]

We experienced warm winds and bluebird skies this worning - yet when I walked from my dark office at 1PM, white styrofoam balls were blowing around. Kind of a head-shaker

Mud season has been ferocious And we're all waiting for one more storm....

People here seem testy. Location of affordable housing on the Access Rd would sure seem a good thing for people who work in the valley -- especially the sizable number employed by SB.
That, by the way, is my own opinion, not that of SB.

I reminded someone to save the sign - I think that's a no brainer.

The Smokehouse has live music. The HydeAway is popular as a local hang-out. And traffic enforcement was a topic at one Town Meeting I read about.

All my postings here are for me, not SB. First snowdrop is up in the garden.

[Tin Woodsman]

That is certainly a great location for those living there, but it does make me scratch my head to see affordable housing on the Access Rd. You are talking about some of the more valuable real estate in the MRV there. Why not down on the valley floor while leaving the land on the Access Rd. for higher value commercial and residential development. Would seem to make the most sense to me for all parties concerned.

[ski_resort_observer]

For me, without knowing any of the details about the affordable housing, I found it impossible to make any judgements about the project. What I do know is that affordable housing is a good thing for several reasons and It would be great if it happened on the access road or down in the valley.

The best land for developement is at the bottom and above Alpine Options. In between the land on both sides of the road is very steep. The topagraphy is very favorable above the German Flats intersection. Except for the townhouse project on the corner of Golf Course Rd, hasn't been much action in the last 15 years.

On the gardening front, a few of my Iris's popped up during the thaw in January, starting to get excited about the upcoming gardening season.

[castlerock]

Affordable housing belongs somewhere in the middle of the "community". Stuck in an "island" on the access road is not the place. It makes no sense. Somewhere near Warren or Waitsfield village, would be a better idea.

[Schusseur]

Mtnlady - I don't know exactly what's lurking deep in my heart, but there's a distinct sadness about the losing the Blue Tooth and the situation overall at SB. Something is indeed wrong. There seems to be a structural problem about owning the resort. Owner after owner has not been able to find that right, profitable formula to make the place work. I don't question SV's desire to do right by the bush, but I just don't think their pockets are deep enough and their vision in touch enough with the clientele.

I'm just too frustrated by broken lifts, too little snow making, too few entertainment options, run-down restaurants, fear of speeding tickets and just an overall feeling the MRV is kinda dead. But I love the MRV and really do consider it home after all.

The valley just doesn't have what's needed to attract the twenty-somethings. My love of Sugarbush as a twenty-something is absolutely what led me to buy a place as a forty-something. I think that goes for Win too.

It pains me to say this may be my family's last season at the bush - not a done deal, but leaning that way. I'm actually an upbeat guy, so this dour tone is unusual for me. In the end, Killington is not ideal, but it may well solve my weekend skiing needs in the future. Sorry for coming across as such a downer, but this subject hits close to home for me as well as lots of other regulars.

If possible, I would like to own a little piece of the Blue Tooth and am willing to pay for it - like when the gondola shut down. Pure sentimental value for a fan going back to 1968, but hey, time to move on.

[ski_resort_observer]

All resort areas are diferent and emphasize diferent aspects of the ski resort area experience. The MRV, with the Bush and MRG is all about the skiing. While not having the nightlife and restaurant options of a Stowe or a Killington, it is there. I love the valley and bought a home there due to the lack of traffic, chain restaurants and motels. The slow pace of life that for me is more indictative of the Vermont I grew up with, than Stowe or Killington. Summer is such a sweet time to be in the valley. Everyone has to go with their personal priorities, got to be true to yourself.

To be honest, the comments I have heard regarding the direction of Sugarbush has been mostly positive. If you were able to ski at all the resorts in New England last Sat. you would discover what makes the Bush great. I was at 5 resorts/ski hills last weekend and none had the high quality of ski conditions the Bush had. One was already closed for the season.

Nothing the Bush does will make everyone happy but I think they are moving forward in a positive way. It's ok to feel diferently I respect everyone's opinion. It does seem with the closing of the moviehouse turned nightclub, MMT, Gallaghers and now the BT one would think the area is prime for a new nightspot to come in. When the moviehouse closed it was a bummer for the wife and I so we adapt and go to the Majestic in Burl or Montpelier.

I will make this prediction...if you move down to Kmart you will be back, trust me, you will be back.

[jmon]

so let's make affordable housing all up and down the Access road, let's have more DUI stops. Let's take anything to do outside of skiing/riding and drive the economy down to make my experience stuck in time. You do not get it..skiing is just one aspect of a so called resort area. You are the problem! NIMBY. I am here, so let's keep everyone else out.

how about some planning?


I too have ridden other areas this season, and while the ops crew has doen a great job at SB, KUDOS!!; let's be honest-the ops crew at killington makes SB look like amateur time. seriously.

Desiring a mountain experience of years past and quaint beauty is fine, but that aint the MRV anymore, look around. it has changed. you sound like a luddite. kidding. but not too much.

What nighltlife? Where were you last Saturday? i went from BT (5 people), Phoenix( 15 people), Smokehouse (30 people, great band, 1 unbelievably overweight and smelly guy though, wheew he stunk), and lastly the Hydeway to chat with Bob. If that is what you consider acceptable, you are losing an entire demographic,post colleg to 30's and 40's whom like to have fun, likley without a family. me I am 35.


Yeah-maybe Ktown is not ideal, and it is not, but it has options, and a pass program that rewards loyalty, and has tiers. And stowe aint my gig either. But options.

Positive comments for those whom want nobody else to visit maybe, but how long will your mountain be in business?

-Josh

[Schusseur]

Jmon - you got it right. I don't think you're being particularly negative, you're being honest and quite direct. I don't think you're off base. I personally have a life-long experience tied up with the bush. If I remember back to when I was a kid... yeah that's right, Sugarbush WAS the killington and Stowe of the day. Lots of nightlife and restaurants. For gosh sakes Henri's was a serious hangout well into the 80's.

Having a place to go in the evening is just basic. What happened? SV just bought the Tooth 4 years ago - seemed they didn't mind being in the bar business then. In fact, they turned it back into a real bar when it had been a bar/restaurant.

SRO - I like your photographs and I've liked a lot of your comments over the years, but I think you are essentially the voice of management. You are definitely right that I will be back in the valley.

For those on this board who my know my identity, please forgive what I am about to say because there are many bush folks (of all levels) that I like a lot: I don't want to be around for what I believe is likely to happen. The housing market is turning down, inventories of unsold 'developments' are piling up and the economy may be a lot weaker this time next year.

This is not a good backdrop for the current financial condition of the bush. Management has just done too many things in the name of cost-cutting that scream "we're in trouble". People know this. Just one opinion coming from a guy who's turned sour, but it could get quite unpleasant.

[Lostone]

Why do you guys think night life is a Sugarbush responsibility? Does Stowe own the Rusty Nail? K-Mart the Pickle Barrel? I believe those establishments to be owned by private citizens.

Yes, Summit Ventures did buy the Blue Tooth, and try to make it work. And rather than give them credit for trying, you say that it is their fault for not making it work.

I still say it is the fact that there weren't enough people going in to give them enough business.

jmon
Where were you last Saturday? i went from BT (5 people), Phoenix( 15 people), Smokehouse (30 people

You went to 3 places on a Saturday night and found 50 people? And then you say that it is Summit Ventures' fault that there isn't enough night life? How can places stay in business with so few people coming in? And it wasn't that Sugarbush didn't draw them in. If you were on the mountain Saturday, there were a million people out there! (If I told you once, I told you a million times... DON"T EXAGERATE! ) They did their part to draw people to the area.

The night life, they are now leaving to someone else. If you think it is a worthwhile business, buy the Hydeaway. Or the old Egan's Big World. Make it work.

[ski_resort_observer]

so let's make affordable housing all up and down the Access road, let's have more DUI stops. Let's take anything to do outside of skiing/riding and drive the economy down to make my experience stuck in time. You do not get it..skiing is just one aspect of a so called resort area. You are the problem! NIMBY. I am here, so let's keep everyone else out.

how about some planning?


I too have ridden other areas this season, and while the ops crew has doen a great job at SB, KUDOS!!; let's be honest-the ops crew at killington makes SB look like amateur time. seriously.

Desiring a mountain experience of years past and quaint beauty is fine, but that aint the MRV anymore, look around. it has changed. you sound like a luddite. kidding. but not too much.

What nighltlife? Where were you last Saturday? i went from BT (5 people), Phoenix( 15 people), Smokehouse (30 people, great band, 1 unbelievably overweight and smelly guy though, wheew he stunk), and lastly the Hydeway to chat with Bob. If that is what you consider acceptable, you are losing an entire demographic,post colleg to 30's and 40's whom like to have fun, likley without a family. me I am 35.


Yeah-maybe Ktown is not ideal, and it is not, but it has options, and a pass program that rewards loyalty, and has tiers. And stowe aint my gig either. But options.

Positive comments for those whom want nobody else to visit maybe, but how long will your mountain be in business?

-Josh

What the heck is a luddite? Maybe my kids can tell me.

I have nothing against progress, growth and I am certainly not a NIMBY. I saw enough of that during my 17 years at Jackson Hole.

As I mentioned in my post I realize several bars/nightclubs have closed in the last few years. It would be great if some new ones opened up but as you pointed out the Bush/MRV apparently does not have the demographics to support them. I was thinking just the other day that the property at the bottom of the Access Rd on the left as you start up the hill would be an awesome place for a Rusty Nail/Pickle Barrel kind of place.

Yes, I strongly support the management. I worked at the Bush during the ASC days and last year for SV. I worked with both Win and Adam and respect their vision, hard work and desire to make the Bush a financial success.

I realize you have a beef with Adam and that's cool, it happens. Not much we can do about that here. Describing them as people "who want nobody else to visit" is ridiculous. You couldn't be more wrong.

Your trying put a square peg in a round hole. If alot of nightlife options is important to you than the MRV is probably not going to work for you. I don't think it's SV's fault that the moviehouse/nightclub(can't remember the name), MMT and Galleghers closed.

Real estate in the valley is doing fine. Inventories are tight, places are increasing in value. I am hopeful that the Claybrook project will be a catylyst to some growth in the valley which, ya never know, might include some new live music options. I first skied the Bush in 1970, interestenly about the time you were born. lol

I am sorry the Bush and the MRV is not living up to your personal vision of what should be happening here or meeting the needs of your group but that "aint't my gig either".

Good luck. Oh and Schusseur, I love your avatar over at AZ, get a chuckle everytime I see it and ironicly appropriate for your imput here.

[Plowboy]

IMO there has been no nightlife here for a long time. Most ski areas have nothing to do with it. So, that leaves us with private owners, who have to deal with no #'s for 70% of the year. It's hard but some find a niche and do well.

Any land that is subdivided is gone like the wind. Must be why we have so many windholds this year.

It looks like crap now, but it's looked a lot worse. Give it time and who knows you might like it.

[madskier6]

It's not clear to me why there is all this negativity about the direction of Sugarbush and the MRV. I realize it's been a tough snow year and maybe that has people on edge. With a few exceptions, I think the direction of Sugarbush and the Valley is on the upswing. Someone mentioned broken lifts, too little snowmaking and absence of nightlife as the cause of the negative outlook.

I completely agree that the closing of the Blue Tooth is not a good development and that having good nightlife is important for a thriving resort. I haven't heard any evidence that supports the idea that Summit Ventures ran it into the ground. I have no inside knowledge of this but am just wondering, what did they do specifically that ran the BT into the ground? I completely agree that there must be enough patrons for any business to be able to sustain itself and that SV alone can't singlehandedly increase customers to bars. I also agree that SV's #1 priority should be to make the skiing experience as good as it can be and to ensure the long term survival of the ski area through real estate development that makes sense and related activities.

Everyone seems to generally be applauding the work of Mountain Ops and I agree they've done a great job this year under very difficult conditions. How is broken lifts the fault of SV then? With a few exceptions for the older lifts, the condition of most of the lifts seems to be pretty good. Super Bravo (I think) broke down due to lightning from a thunderstorm and high winds. How can SV be blamed for that? The windholds are always cited as an example and they frustrate the hell out of me too. I don't however subscribe to the conspiracy theory that SV puts lifts on windhold to save money or to preserve powder stashes for preferred days or groups.

I realize a lot of people had legitimate complaints about the early season snowmaking decisions (i.e. Ripcord and Stein's Run) around Christmas and into January. It seems to me, however, that most of those concerns have been corrected to some degree. They're still making snow this late into March so I don't know how anyone can complain about that. I'm not trying to say everything is rosy but I don't think it's as bad as some people here have stated.

SB and the MRV will never be like KMart and Stowe (nor do most of us want it to be). I think an area has to be true to its character and emphasize the things it does well. The skiing in the Valley is top notch from a challenge perspective and the natural snow is better and more plentiful than most all of the Southern VT resorts. While good nighlife is important, it is more important to me that SB and the MRV sticks to what it does best and to its natural characteristics.

I'm relatively new to the Valley having bought my condo only two years ago. I did not experience the "SB glory days" of old when the nightlife was as hopping as at KMart and Stowe so I come at it from a different perspective. My wife and I chose to buy property in the Valley primarily for the excellent skiing and also due to the "vibe" present throughout the Valley. We love it here. While I would certainly welcome more and better nightlife options, that alone is not a deal breaker for me. I do, however, understand that this is an important aspect for the 20s and 30s crowd. I'm 43 but would go bar-hopping more if there were more and better options. The lack of nightlife, however, is not going to compel me to sell my condo. I respect others decision to do so and have no problem with it. I just wanted to express my perspective on that issue.

I do agree that it would be great if season passes were more affordable. My wife and I have 4 children and so buying passes for all of them is very expensive. We've bought season passes the last 2 years. If the prices don't come down at least a little, we may not be able to buy passes again next year. As our children get older, the cost obviously increases as they move towards adulthood and full prices. But we're not going to give up on SB and the MRV because of it. We'll just find other ways by buying discount passes and whatever other money saving specials we can take advantage of. While I would love it if pass prices came down, I would not want that to happen at the expense of the long-term survival of the ski area. We all know how well ASC is doing financially so one has to wonder whether the All-for-One pass makes sense from a long-term financial perspective. It's a great way for us skiers to be able to ski affordably but if the end result is shrinking, closure or sale of some ASC ski areas, then it's a bad move IMHO.

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to add my perspective to the discussion. I'm not as negative about the direction of SB and the MRV as others have stated. I don't think it's perfect but it's better for me and my family than other ski area choices.

[win]

Rather than respond to what are some very uninformed comments posted on skimrv.com, I invite anyone who is interested to join me for a beer in The Mushroom next Saturday, March 25th at 4pm. I would be happy to listen to any and all comments and suggestions, and I would like to share with everyone in person what is really happening and why. I also invite anyone to email me directly at wsmith@sugarbush.com if you want a straight answer to anything or call me at 802-583-6332. I appreciate the passion of those who post on skimrv.com, but some of the comments are not based on perspective or knowledge of what is really happening or what it takes to run a resort successful, so I welcome the opportunity to speak with all of you in person next week or at another time if it is more convenient.

[Tin Woodsman]

Rather than respond to what are some very uninformed comments posted on skimrv.com, I invite anyone who is interested to join me for a beer in The Mushroom next Saturday, March 25th at 4pm. I would be happy to listen to any and all comments and suggestions, and I would like to share with everyone in person what is really happening and why. I also invite anyone to email me directly at wsmith@sugarbush.com if you want a straight answer to anything or call me at 802-583-6332. I appreciate the passion of those who post on skimrv.com, but some of the comments are not based on perspective or knowledge of what is really happening or what it takes to run a resort successful, so I welcome the opportunity to speak with all of you in person next week or at another time if it is more convenient.

Wow. Thanks for chiming in, Win. This is something of a milestone for us here at SkiMRV.

Should I have time, I think I'll take you up on your offer and I'd implore others here who have raved and ranted to do the same. For the record, I echo the applause given to the Mountain Ops team. I was bitching and whining about Steins/Ripcord over New Year, but they were both buried DEEP soon thereafter. One of my best days this winter was after a night of perfect snowmaking conditions on Ripcord - cold temps, low humidity, no wind. That sucker was absolutely buried by about 12-18" of the lightest, sweetest manmade I've ever seen. Just unbelievable. The job that crew has done in what can only be described as adverse conditions is truly remarkable. The lengths they've gone to to cover Lower Moonshine, The Mall, etc. are astounding. I'm still blown away by the fact that the mountain has continued to make snow right up through this week.

I'll second the notion regarding pass prices, however. I think you are about $100-$150 too high for the early birds. If you hit $800/$850, I'd be in on it Day 1 (plus interest), along with many friends and family. The payback for most weekenders, especially in a season like this, just isn't there when you are in the $900-$1000 range. And might I suggest that the Corporate Pass program be transformed into a Group Pass program for groups of 15/20 or more at a slightly higher price point. You know your P&L better than I ever will, but when you consider food, occasional lessons, and occasional rentals etc.., the lift ticket represents perhaps only 50-60% of the revenue you'll get out of me in a single day. If I had a pass, there is no doubt that I'd muster the will to leave the house on those wet days, or make it up from NYC on marginal weather weekends. As it stands, there's no motivation for me to do so even though your marginal cost of servicing me is close to zero.

BTW, I'm VERY glad to see that the plan for the VH chair has changed from a HSQ to a FG triple. Just a MUCH better idea all around.

[Schusseur]

I think Win's offer of free discussion over a beer is a great idea. Many of us are in fact uninformed so that would be an opportunity to get on the same page.