Snowmaking Question

**ski_it** · 01-02-2006, 03:08 PM

First off, I want to thank everyone working on the mountain for a job well done over holiday week. The weather pattern was not ideal and made for some challenging conditions, but it seemed like everyone out skiing was having a great time thanks to the hard work of everyone there.

I think it has been mentioned on this board already, and I think it's probably pretty apparent to many at this point, but I haven't heard a good explanation yet, so I'll pose the question anyway-- why is Sugarbush making less snow this year?

I will say, that the snow that is being made this year is truly excellent. I was told that new heads were placed on the guns, and I agree that the result is a soft, dry snow that skis very well. The fact that Organgrinder stayed better than edgeable and in very good shape despite the weather last week is truly a testament to this. That said, from my view there is just a lot less of it being made.

As a passholder, I'm curious what the reason(s) for this might be as it directly impacts the value of the pass I purchased. The simple answer might be that a decision was made to budget less money for snowmaking this year, much the same as there was a decision to reduce the size of the groomer fleet.

The best I can tell, there is less capacity to make snow this year than there was the last few years. For instance, where are all of the huge generators that normally sit by the mtn ops building near the bottom of Super Bravo? Is there less compressor/pump capacity without them? Or is there less man-power on staff out there to run the machines? Or has the construction somehow physically impacted capacity?

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy a pass to Sugarbush expecting to get snowmaking like Killington, but it would be really cool to see the snowmaking infrastructure that is in place used to the greatest extent it can be when weather takes a bad turn like it did this last week. I'm not advocating that snowmaking be expanded-- I'm not asking for water and air lines to be strung up to the top of Castlerock, but it really would make me smile to see the tower guns on Stein's and Ripcord get fired up right about now.

I guess what I'm looking for here is whether there has there been a long-term, high-level decision to put less emphasis on snowmaking in favor of other aspects of the business, or maybe a shorter term decision based on high energy costs, or the result of some other factors I haven't thought of?

-Jim

**ski_resort_observer** · 01-02-2006, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by ski_it

First off, I want to thank everyone working on the mountain for a job well done over holiday week. The weather pattern was not ideal and made for some challenging conditions, but it seemed like everyone out skiing was having a great time thanks to the hard work of everyone there.

I think it has been mentioned on this board already, and I think it's probably pretty apparent to many at this point, but I haven't heard a good explanation yet, so I'll pose the question anyway-- why is Sugarbush making less snow this year?

I will say, that the snow that is being made this year is truly excellent. I was told that new heads were placed on the guns, and I agree that the result is a soft, dry snow that skis very well. The fact that Organgrinder stayed better than edgeable and in very good shape despite the weather last week is truly a testament to this. That said, from my view there is just a lot less of it being made.

As a passholder, I'm curious what the reason(s) for this might be as it directly impacts the value of the pass I purchased. The simple answer might be that a decision was made to budget less money for snowmaking this year, much the same as there was a decision to reduce the size of the groomer fleet.

The best I can tell, there is less capacity to make snow this year than there was the last few years. For instance, where are all of the huge generators that normally sit by the mtn ops building near the bottom of Super Bravo? Is there less compressor/pump capacity without them? Or is there less man-power on staff out there to run the machines? Or has the construction somehow physically impacted capacity?

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy a pass to Sugarbush expecting to get snowmaking like Killington, but it would be really cool to see the snowmaking infrastructure that is in place used to the greatest extent it can be when weather takes a bad turn like it did this last week. I'm not advocating that snowmaking be expanded-- I'm not asking for water and air lines to be strung up to the top of Castlerock, but it really would make me smile to see the tower guns on Stein's and Ripcord get fired up right about now.

I guess what I'm looking for here is whether there has there been a long-term, high-level decision to put less emphasis on snowmaking in favor of other aspects of the business, or maybe a shorter term decision based on high energy costs, or the result of some other factors I haven't thought of?

-Jim

I think that's a great question. You can email the man who makes those decisions. whsmith@sugarbush.com Curious what he says. Another option is to email their PR guy jtoland@sugarbush.com

**Lostone** · 01-02-2006, 07:05 PM

They have less compressors because they have switched to a different kind of head for the guns. They are supposed to take significantly less air power to run.

As to why the trail-a-day amount...

I've heard that question a bit.

**Treeskier** · 01-02-2006, 07:39 PM

I was interesting to see the quality of snow made this week. Take yesturday: Sleeper had great soft snow on it. But if you skied through the guns on lower Organgrinder 20% of them where goggle coving wet. The rest where correct. Same on Lower Snowball. I was told that there are two crews at each hill, one experienced and one that has newbee's. I do miss Hardy skiing around and doing quick adjustments. Maybe they need to teach a sking snowmaker to ski around to check guns not just walk down the hill. Same observation on Inverness over the last two days.

I can't tell you how many people observed the lack of snowmaking at South compared to past years/managments. People where pretty sadden. I heard power was a problem...but that stems from the want to only buy cheap power and not use expensive power over high demand times. (or save it for high demand times) I suspect that a little lulling of the good natural snow fall in early December convinced them not to go full guns early. (funny how mother nature can fowel that up) Many people remarked that it was surprising not to see snowmaking completed on Rip Coard and Stiens for the holiday.

I will say it was good to see them finally blow snow on North Lynxs. They where running the lift to test it also.

I do feel that the staff was very friendly this week and the lift lines config was the best in years.

Now we all need to push the next few storms North!

**Schusseur** · 01-02-2006, 09:35 PM

Am a long-time fan but I hear points of criticism from new people I've introduced to the bush: 1) snowmaking. Yes, it's a dead horse, but new folks coming here SEE all the unused pipework around the hill, while they're looking at bare trails and it's 20 degrees out. The electricity availablity saga is wearing thin - folks just aren't buying that one. And 2) (also a dead horse) food quality and especially PRICE. $2.50 for a soda? $3.25 for apple juice? And how much for that cold, awful hamburger? Guys, you gotta be joking. There's a line that gets crossed in every customer's mind at some point, where small things start to add up and the dots get connected. Seriously, even well-to-do folks balk at the cost of feeding their family lunch at the Gate house. And just try and take them to the SHARC for a swim after skiing - that's gonna REALLY set you back. This isn't Disney World. As Win said a while back, a business must generate cash flow in order to prosper. Agreed. But somehow, you've got to find a way to do it without sacrificing the customer experience. Somehow you need to enroll your customers in your plan. Make 'em partners, as in "we at Sugarbush offer a unique experience and therefore ask you to put up with a few foibles in order for us to keep giving you what we know you love best...". But what exactly do you think your customer loves best? This is a fundamental question. Who is it exactly that you are selling to? Is it the terrain seekers? Is it the typical skiing family? Is it the mythical 'upper end' consumer who has been going for years to Stowe and Stratton? What's missing at the very least is some basic honesty. Without the benefit of a $300million investment (like at Stowe), it's clear you need to be precise about who your customer is, and then focus the hell out of your precious resources to make sure your particular customer's hot-button is 100% satisfied. They will forgive you for what you cannot do. who wants to spend 300 G's on a partial condo unit when it's obvious corners are being cut everywhere? It's time to level with us. Tell me what sacrifices I need to make in order to be sure I'm getting the very best of something else.

**Strat** · 01-02-2006, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Schusseur

And how much for that cold, awful hamburger?

Are you kidding? The GH Lodge hamburgers are awesome! Overpriced yes, but very very tasty.

**ahm** · 01-02-2006, 10:08 PM

Interesting last post by Schusseur. Another long time SB skier once told me: ".........yes you can buy it, but can you afford it?" That, I feel, sums up the Summit Ventures "approach". Since SV purchased the 'bush, snowmaking has been rather limited. Additionally, as they are "manufacturing product (which is what snow making is)" there is very little "on line supervision" of the "production line", hence GS's previous comment about variable product being produced around the area. When you actually consider the concept of "manufacturing" there is typically a fair amount of assessment about product quality coming off the line. At SB there is rarely, if ever, any assessment of the product coming off of the line,yet the "cost" of making that product is high (and something the area always comments about), so one would think "they'd be out there checking it out (and that does not mean just going skiing, a la Win and Adam) and adjusting as necessary. My take is that the management has no real concept of manufacturing and considering they are located in the NE, they need to understand a bit about manufacturing. Hmmm, shouldn't the "management" be "interested" in what type of product they are producing...............seems like an AMC (American Motor Company) approach (can you say Pacer?).

The bottom line I feel is that SV cannot actually afford the business they are in and hence they are simply cutting costs everywhere they can, kinda like the airline industry (one I use a great deal of). They seem to not have the operating capital to "invest" in their own business. Take a look at the natural snow trails, most are in pretty sad shape, yet the area is charging full price. The "value" of the experience right now is more like $40.00. I think SV needs to actually ask themselves, if they have the "core competency" to run the business they are in. When you look at their "work backgrounds" one might ask: "Do you have any experience in this business".

Don't get me wrong, I love the bush and have skied there a very long time. But the trend that I see from SV suggests that they don't really understand exactly who their customers are, what is important to them, and how to provide a quality experience on a daily basis for a good value. Only time will tell, but unless they can come up with the capital to operate their business, it will mean a lot of "boney" runs for the customer. The ski business is a labor of love, with low profits, and unless you possess the capital to "play" in the major ski area business, you have to ask yourself "who you are". If you want to compete with Stowe, then I guess you'll need to "blow", otherwise, maybe they should consider the Magic/MRG/Snowbowl business model--low cost (for the customer) skiing on essentially natural snow, with regularly priced (and warm) food. Only time will tell if they "learn" how to run this kind of business.AHM

**Tin Woodsman** · 01-02-2006, 11:42 PM

I don't want to speak to the larger issues of "knowing your customer" etc.. b/c that's such a touchy-feely thing. Who is to say whether they know their customer and who, exactly, is their customer anyway? I will, however, chime in on the snowmaking issue. I agree completely with much of what's been said here. AFAIC, there are three main problems with the snowmaking efforts thus far: variability in quality, lack of urgency in opening terrain, and lack of a sensible plan to recover from the recent thaw/freeze cycle.

My observations of snowmaking quality over the the last month indicate that it has indeed been more variable than I'd expect. The stuff coming out of the tower guns on OG was light and enjoyable. Yet when you hit the snow from the reguar gun 50 feet down the trail it was thick crud and/or ice. Very difficult to navigate through the changing densities. There is something to this quality control issue, IMHO.

Second, I was pretty surprised thay no effort had been made to blow snow on Stein's, Ripcord, or the North Lynx pod. The first two are some of the more important signature expert runs at SB while NL represents some of the best intermediate and advanced cruising terrain at either mountain. I could almost understand not blowing snow on NL seeing as how its exposure and the the width of its trails ensures that it is expensive to open and maintain, but Stein's and Ripcord? It was consistently cold to the point of being one of the 10 coldest on record, but never so cold that it was dangerous to make snow or that the grid was stressed (i.e. not many 10-20 below nights in the valleys). IOW, though I don't have access to historical humidity measurements, it seems like nearly the entire month offered close to ideal snowmaking conditions. Now of course SB's priority is and should be to ensure that its bread and butter intermediate terrain (Downspout, Jester, Snowball, Spring Fling, Glade, Birdland, Sleeper, Hotshot, etc...) is open for the holidays. But they did have nearly the entire month here.

Finally, I was also somewhat surprised with SB's recovery after the latest thaw/freeze nightmare. Let's be clear here - they were dealt an awful hand by Mother Nature. It's bad enough that it rains on you for 24 hours in the middle of the holidays, but then when it doesn't even have the decency to set-up until a few hours before the opening bell, it's simply not going to be a great day for Mtn Ops. On Friday morning, SB started making snow immediately on Lower OG and Downspout. Makes complete sense to me - these are the heavy hitters off of Bravo and would need resurfacing first. Much to my surprise and dismay, SB was still blowing snow on Lower OG when I showed up Saturday. Instead of spending 24 hours of snowmaking time and money adding 18" of base to OG, wouldn't make more sense to do a quick resurfacing in 12 hours before moving on to other terrain? If not, why not? That's what they did with Downspout and that trail was skiing quite well all weekend. They didn't move on to Snowball until Sunday, by which time the holiday weekend was almost over. Moreover, the trail count remained in the mid 80's including runs like Spillsville, Lower Ripcord and Twist which simply had NO BUSINESS being open. It was downright dangerous to let people on those runs. I was really surprised that they were on offer this weekend. You could here people scraping down them from a mile away. I don't know who they thought they were fooling. One or two misguided souls would gomer their way down those runs and everyone else who heard them knew immediately to stay far away. Looks like that "strategic decision" to go from 6 groomers to 5 this winter bit them in the rear end somewhat.

I love the Bush. IMHO, it has the best combination of terrain, lifts, snowfall, and vibe anywhere in the East. I want it to succeed in every way and I believe mtn lady when she says that money isn't a concern for the first time in a long time. I don't care about expensive food in the lodge (it's always been and always will be overpriced, both here and anywhere else that aspires to resort status). But it's hard to ignore what I see with my own two eyes or feel with my own two skis.

**Strat** · 01-03-2006, 07:36 AM

TW - There has been snowmaking on Stein's and Ripcord, just not a huge amount of it. Nothing on North Lynx, which I don't completely understand, but I guess that they didn't see it necessary to use a bunch of resources to open three trails that don't get a huge amount of traffic anyway...

But jeez! Everyone's such a critic! Is it really that bad out there? Are the (possibly) money-related decisions of this resort really this large of a concern for you?

**smootharc** · 01-03-2006, 09:41 AM

....and don't seem to be petty gripes in any way. Somewhere out there is the meeting point between SV's apparent sincerity in terms of making SB "world class", and the day to day realities and difficulties of achieving that lofty goal. The balance between, as has been mentioned, exclusive and inclusive. It seem's SV is struggling to find that, and tiny bits of erosion occur to the foundation that's been so hard to build up. Three forward steps, one back....rinse, repeat.....

I thought they brought in an ace groomer guy, and some ace mountain ops guy in the last year or two ? All things that point toward an effort to improve....but perhaps somehow Lost in Translation at the moment.

The Health and Racquette has been mostly dead quiet when I've peeked my head in last summer and fall. I'm not sure what the day pricing is, but they should definitely dust off that "grand dame" and promote it's amenities in a way that gets people in the door. 10 packs, gold cards, something/anything that says "we want you here". One gorgeous summer day last year there was a single lifeguard at the pool reading in her chair, alone. I thought....best summer job in America right there.

I'm a firm rooter for SB, the SB folks, and the skiers who love the place. That being said, this year, with the deals at MRG for family pass pricing and season long ski school programs...well, we're one bowl over to the North....

**Tin Woodsman** · 01-03-2006, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Strat

TW - There has been snowmaking on Stein's and Ripcord, just not a huge amount of it. Nothing on North Lynx, which I don't completely understand, but I guess that they didn't see it necessary to use a bunch of resources to open three trails that don't get a huge amount of traffic anyway...

But jeez! Everyone's such a critic! Is it really that bad out there? Are the (possibly) money-related decisions of this resort really this large of a concern for you?

That's surprising to me re: Ripcord and Steins. Visually, it didn't seem that there was any difference in cover between those runs and the other natural trails. Also, in December I was checking the lift/trail detail every day to see where they were blowing snow and neither of those two ever showed up, though I suppose I could have missed it.

FWIW, this is a concern to me for two reasons. First, on a practical level, I'd like to see runs like Ripcord, Steins, and the NL pod open b/c it helps to spread out the traffic and that has very real implications for the day-to-day skiing experience. Second, if there are financial problems, then that doesn't portend good things for a resort and community that has a special place in my heart.

**ski_it** · 01-03-2006, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Strat

TW - There has been snowmaking on Stein's and Ripcord, just not a huge amount of it. Nothing on North Lynx, which I don't completely understand, but I guess that they didn't see it necessary to use a bunch of resources to open three trails that don't get a huge amount of traffic anyway...

Not to quibble, but I really don't think there's been any snowmaking on Stein's or Ripcord this year. I remember the first weekend in January last year when the mountain was trying to recover from some bad weather and the conditions were very similar to what they are right now; Ripcord was buried by relentless snowmaking for almost a week. The skiing was fantastic on Ripcord that weekend, and there were so many people on it that it looked like an anthill.

Originally Posted by Strat

But jeez! Everyone's such a critic! Is it really that bad out there? Are the (possibly) money-related decisions of this resort really this large of a concern for you?

The natural snow trails that are listed as open on the trail report really are that bad. I was one of those misguided souls, as TW described us, skiing (hopefully not gomering) down them everyday last week despite the conditions, so I can tell you first hand. In the condition they're in now, they really shouldn't "count" as open.

This is the real reason I raised the question to begin with. I'm not trying to be a critic, but I feel like the value of my season pass has decreased when we find ourselves with very similar ski conditions to a year ago but a lesser snowmaking operation to help deal with it. Season pass value is a smaller concern with the mtn's financial decisions, and the larger concern is for the overall financial health of the resort which can have wide-ranging implications. Aside from that, there is the practical/selfish concern for my own skiing experience (and, of course, yours too

).

**Strat** · 01-03-2006, 04:37 PM

I know I've seen guns out (though I suppose I can't vouch for actual snowmaking) on Stein's, and I distinctly remember frosty trees (clearly from snowmaking) on Ripcord right when South opened... even if there was snowmaking though, it was quite little.

I suppose I understand your point of view - everyone just seems so quick to criticize. By the way, by "that bad" out there I was more referring to the financial conditions and such of the resort rather than the trail surface, as I know how bad it is. Not 100% sure what I meant though, as I wrote that this morning when I was barely awake.

**Schusseur** · 01-03-2006, 08:56 PM

This is a useful discussion, and the tone is actually quite respectful. We all love the bush and in the end I know I absolutely want the SV team to succeed. Please indulge me for a moment on the following. The snowmaking issue is a very big issue. Nothing says "we're barely getting by" as fast as a bunch of bare trails when the perception is more should be open. Customers are keenly aware of just how much terrain is skiable at Killington and Stowe. The bare bones approach is totally acceptable if your customers are mostly day skiers, who flock to the bush from within a 50 mile radius and who come for "the best mountain for the best prices". That strategy would bring in the bodies, and conveniently, wouldn't rely on a need for new beds. It would also dovetail nicely with Mad River's approach. Trying to beat Stowe at its own game would be a doomed strategy, and I hope this isn't the SV idea. SV seems to be targeting the same folks who would stay at the Pitcher Inn - well-healed, but in search of luxury in less-traveled surroundings. Isn't it a Pitcher Inn guest who would logically want to buy a ClayBrook unit? But it's a bit of a small and somewhat odd niche. The prosperous want to be surrounded by prosperity - shops, restaurants and absolutely reliable snow. Stratton and Okemo make this pitch, and deliver upon it. Don't play the prosperous resort game unless you really mean it. Those particular customers are in the end also extremely demanding. Additionally, competition is increasingly coming from Jet Blue and SouthWest Air. To think you can pay $250 on Delta and find yourself in Salt Lake City only 4 1/2 hours later from New York. Why would anyone of means bother coming to Sugarbush for any more than a 3-day weekend with all these new flight options? So it's about bagging the weekend warriors. Since the market for the road ragers isn't growing, you need to win them over from another resort. If they've chosen the other places for the good feelings of a prosperous setting, no amount of money that SV can throw at these folks will ever get them to budge. BUT, if at the heart of it, these folks really care more about the ski experience than facials, Sugarbush really does have a competitive advantage. It is therefore imperative to make sure the skiing experience is the top priority, and that snowmaking be encouraged full tilt. ANY PRIORITY OTHER THAN A TOP-NOTCH SKIING EXPERIENCE WHEN YOU ARE IN THE BUSINESS OF WINNING OVER SKIERS IS A HUGE MISTAKE. Unless you're not in the skiing business.

**ski_resort_observer** · 01-03-2006, 10:11 PM

blah,blah,blah,blah said the arm-chair resort owner. If the snowmaking is not up to your personal expectations, that's not something SV needs to worry about. They know they can never make everyone happy. The people who actually run the Bush want to provide the best experience possible. Do you believe that? I do.

Is it possible they have good reasons for the decisions they make. Is it possible you don't understand them cause your not aware of all the issues involved? The only people that can truely respond are the people that make those decisions. Ask them. They are accessible. Win, Hardy, Dave. Go down to Tuckers Nursery, the former vice president of mountain opps is the owner, maybe he can help you with the issues you have. He is a good guy and loves to chat. Buy a tree and learn more about Sugarbush snowmaking than you would think possible.

Everything here is simply just conjecture. If your personal fav ski trail has not gotten the snowmaking you feel it deserves. I am sure there is good reason for it.

Conversly, I was already to buy a large Claybrook unit, maybe 2 or 3, but they refuse to repaint the towers of my fav chairlift. I think the color is ugly. I keep telling the sales guy, repaint the towers, sign me up. I'm still waiting. Isn't the customer, in this case, possible customer, always right.