Official Sugarbush Development/Expansion Thread

[kcyanks1]

thanks to strat's website site i'm headed to the church tomorrow to launch some big air.

If I knew you would be there, I would take the day off from skiing just to take pix.

He'd make you go first. Have to check if the few inches down there is enough of a landing

[Tin Woodsman]

So I was up at North on Sunday and stopped into the Glen House for a quick bite. Got into a conversation with the manager b/c I noticed some interesting new (to me) menu options up there. Three new types of pita: lamb/tzatziki, bbq pork, and chicken w/ peppers/onions. Didn't sample it, but it sounds delicious. I guesss they debuted mid-season last year which is why I didn't know about them (didn't ski at North 2nd half of the season).

But I also heard some disconcerting news. I had previously heard that a Waffle Haus was going in at Allyn's Lodge at South. I was pretty excited about this b/c not only would this be a great snack for the morning, but would also alleviate the crowding problems they experienced at that facility in the last few years when it gets cold. Well, I found out that the Waffle Haus will be inside Allyn's Lodge and will replace whatever food options they had there previously. Basically, they will not really solve the crowding problem and will in addition be left with a narrow, unimaginative menu (waffles, water and soda). Booooo! That really seem seams like a lousy idea to me.

[skibum1321]

So I was up at North on Sunday and stopped into the Glen House for a quick bite. Got into a conversation with the manager b/c I noticed some interesting new (to me) menu options up there. Three new types of pita: lamb/tzatziki, bbq pork, and chicken w/ peppers/onions. Didn't sample it, but it sounds delicious. I guesss they debuted mid-season last year which is why I didn't know about them (didn't ski at North 2nd half of the season).

But I also heard some disconcerting news. I had previously heard that a Waffle Haus was going in at Allyn's Lodge at South. I was pretty excited about this b/c not only would this be a great snack for the morning, but would also alleviate the crowding problems they experienced at that facility in the last few years when it gets cold. Well, I found out that the Waffle Haus will be inside Allyn's Lodge and will replace whatever food options they had there previously. Basically, they will not really solve the crowding problem and will in addition be left with a narrow, unimaginative menu (waffles, water and soda). Booooo! That really seem seams like a lousy idea to me.

Well there never really were any good food options up there. I think the waffles will be better than what they previously had. As for the crowding problems, you're right in saying that this will do nothing for it. Putting the Waffle Haus outside wouldn't have done anything for it either since they are usually just a stand with no inside seating.

[ski_resort_observer]

I too don't understand why they don't expand Allyn Lodge. Gorgeous spot busy traffic area. Seems it would be a great revenue producer if the food was decent.

[Tin Woodsman]

Well there never really were any good food options up there. I think the waffles will be better than what they previously had. As for the crowding problems, you're right in saying that this will do nothing for it. Putting the Waffle Haus outside wouldn't have done anything for it either since they are usually just a stand with no inside seating.

I won't argue with the quality of food options up there - it's always been mediocre at best. So I guess the waffles are an upgrade in that sense. But at least there was a semblance of variety, with wraps, cookies, fruit, energy bars, etc.. That said, I think it very much would have done something for crowding. The worst part about the crowding wasn't the wait for the tables, which was bad enough, but the wait for the food - which was awful (like 20-30 minutes awful). With an exterior Waffle Haus, you could have removed a big piece of that problem by creating an additional point of sale.

[skibum1321]

Well there never really were any good food options up there. I think the waffles will be better than what they previously had. As for the crowding problems, you're right in saying that this will do nothing for it. Putting the Waffle Haus outside wouldn't have done anything for it either since they are usually just a stand with no inside seating.

I won't argue with the quality of food options up there - it's always been mediocre at best. So I guess the waffles are an upgrade in that sense. But at least there was a semblance of variety, with wraps, cookies, fruit, energy bars, etc.. That said, I think it very much would have done something for crowding. The worst part about the crowding wasn't the wait for the tables, which was bad enough, but the wait for the food - which was awful (like 20-30 minutes awful). With an exterior Waffle Haus, you could have removed a big piece of that problem by creating an additional point of sale.

I never actually bought food there, so I can't really speak to that problem. I usually bring my food with me and I would only go to the lodge when I needed to warm up. I guess I misunderstood where you thought the crowding issue was.

[2planker]

Since management loves the tents that they are using as semi permanent structures. Why don't they put a yurt at the Allyn lodge or near the North Lynx triple? I hate coming down for lunch or a warm up if the bumps are nice on Sunrise and Morningstar. There was a little coffee stand up there years ago.

[Tin Woodsman]

Since management loves the tents that they are using as semi permanent structures. Why don't they put a yurt at the Allyn lodge or near the North Lynx triple? I hate coming down for lunch or a warm up if the bumps are nice on Sunrise and Morningstar. There was a little coffee stand up there years ago.

Without knowing the economics of it, I agree completely. The base area is going to be a bit of a mess the next 2-3 years. Why not keep people higher on the mountain to ease congestion and confusion down there? Also, the most crowded lifts are always Super Bravo and Gate House. The more you can do to keep people skiing on underutilized lifts like North Lynx, and away from the workhorses, the better, IMHO.

[ski_resort_observer]

Gatehouse is an awful place to go, especially on the weekends. I park at North and if I need something I go into the base lodge there. When friends come over they always want to meet at Gatehouse Lodge. You walk up the stairs then as you are entering the first the smell and then the heat hits you like a ton of bricks. As I am riding the Slidebrook Express and I see all the cars at South I feel like I am going into the mouth of the Lion. What we are willing to endure for our friends. lol

People have benn complaining about GL for years and rightly so. I guess we will have to endure for a couple of more years for the problem to be fixed.

[Tin Woodsman]

Well, I had the chance to spend some time up at the hill this past long weekend and I have a few observations/opinions to pass along. First, the rumors previously mentioned in this thread are true - Allyn's Lodge is Waffle Haus only this year. When you come in from the cold looking for a mid-day snack, your options are as follows:

Skittles
M&Ms
Snickers
Reese's
Waffles (w or w/o chocolate)

That's it, and that's pretty pathetic, IMO. No fruit, no granola, no energy bars, just candy and waffles. I love the addition of the hot cider to beverage choices, but having only a single food item on the menu strikes me as being incromprehensibly stupid. I really have to wonder about the F&B decision making process at SB when I see stuff like this. I heard and saw a lot of people walking out of the Lodge (empty-handed, I should add) muttering to themselves about what a lousy state of affairs this is. Looks like SB solved the Allyn's Lodge crowding problem in a most novel way - by driving people away. Makes no sense to me.

And in other news, I heard a most nasty rumor (hope I'm not stealing Lostone's thunder in that dept). Namely, that SB is looking to sell the Slidebrook Express due to its lack of usage. From a purely financial standpoint, that might make sense. That lift is likely on the books for a large amount of money (unless it was de-facto written down when Summit Ventures purchased the mtn) and gets the least ridership of any lift on the mtn. One could probably find willing buyers for a 2 mile long HSQ with that few hours on it. From a marketing perspective, this would be a disaster, IMO. North and South would be very much separate, like the phony baloney "mergers" of Mt. Snow/Haystack and Killington/Pico. Unless you are physically linked by trails or lifts, it's just marketing BS. From a practical standpoint, it would make getting from one side to the other a lot more difficult and would likely exascerbate the crowding issues at the Slide Brook Rd. pick up on weekends. Again though, this is just a rumor, so perhpas no need to get worked up about it just yet.

Finally, nice job with the temp village me thinks. Sensible layout and away from the hustle and bustle. It will be really interesting to see how the base area evolves in the next 18-24 months. It's already unrecognizable from just 8 months ago. My wife was completely disoriented when she arrived for her first day on Saturday.

[random_ski_guy]

Sell the Slide Brook Express?!?! the horror that would be . Sugarbush is number one on my list for purchasing a ski house, something i would like to do within three years. I would seriously have to reconsider if the slide brook were lost. If i were someone who just purchased a qtr share i would be especially irate.

Perhaps the signs of financial weakness are all around us:
i) the complete lack of interest to invest in real food at Allyns (or any lodge for that matter)
ii) slow roll out of the snowmaking (although i think this is generally wise)
iii) reduction of the grooming fleet by one vehicle (the reverse of most resorts, like it or not)
iv) failure of the qtr share project to sell out in six months (this has to make the owners sweat)

I welcome all those to challenge this notion of financial weekness, I would like to be convinced otherwise....and pronto

ski resort observer and/or mtn lady please squash this rumor.

[Tin Woodsman]

It should be noted that, given the quality of other rumors I've heard recently, this one too should be taken with a large grain of salt.

That said, your other observations all well-taken. I've noticed these things as well, but have neglected to comment on them thus far.

[smootharc]

Perhaps the signs of financial weakness are all around us:

iv) failure of the qtr share project to sell out in six months (this has to make the owners sweat)

...I realize they are big elsewhere, but I just don't get those things as I've posted before on AZ's SB thread....must be a nightmare from a "who gets what week when" standpoint....

Anyone know what the annual fees and services will be on those things ? I think that would be a bit of a un-incentive if you're paying those but have to fight for time with three other owners....

[random_ski_guy]

i think it works quite smoothly. SB is using an assigned week system whereby for example you are assigned the first week of every month in one year, then the second week in year two, then the third week in year three, then the fourth week in year 4 and finally you are back to week one in year 5. i believe this is a fairly common qtr share system and the nice thing about it is that you can plan your winters years in advance. if you want to stay any other weeks then can swap weeks internally provided you relinquish some of your own time. owners also get discounted access to stay at the property on short notice in the event the lodge is not full. i think the general feeling is that owners will be able to drop in and use the property on short notice during the weeks, but don't plan on it during the weekends and holiday weeks. no, this isn't the ideal system for those who want to be at SB or any mtn whenever they want (whenever its snows and during all holidays and weekends). but it has proven to be a very popular approach to vacationing and second home ownership throughout ski towns and beach towns in north america. just look at that raging city on a mtn that okemo has become.

i have the annual dues kicking around somewhere at the house (yes i've been on the mkting tour). its projected to be approx $3,500 annually before taxes for a 2 bedroom unit. I think taxes might be in the 2-3k range (yes thats right for owning just a qtr share). So you are lookiing at approx. 5.5k - 6.5k in annual ownership costs.

with all that being said, i'm of the impression that Okemo and Stratton have been selling their qtr shares at a brisker pace. if SB is going to turn the corner, lincoln village needs to be a raging success.

[smootharc]

if SB is going to turn the corner, lincoln village needs to be a raging success.

on the whole 1/4 share concept....and when you add it up the scheduling and annual overhead, it would be a struggle to make sense in my mind...but, hey, that's why the world is great....we all don't like the same things.

and regarding your comment above....indeed it does seem alot is riding on the revamp of South, for the long term.