A Great Mountain

[Hawk]

OK DJD66, I will agree that I came off like an a-hole and I did underestimated your investment. Totally on me and sorry. What I will say is this. What has SV done for me or any of my freinds that I ski with. This is our general thought. We don't really use the logde, we don't use the Farm house or the school house. I don't ever pay for the cat. The bar is now in the basement and always jammed. I have never had a wedding there. The landscaping is nice and all but whatever.

Before all that, we skied all the same terrain and the mountain was a family of skiers with mostly locals, long timers and the day trippers that were not a huge factor. The mountain was mostly untracked on pow days at first lift and the vibe was very laid back.

I do realize that developement happens. I get it. Some here view the developement as a great thing and for the most part if you have a family the new facilities are grand. You can debate me on this all you like, but what has the new management given us people that have been here for just the skiing other than: longer lines, mechanical problems, these wealthy "condo" owners traking up the hill at 7am. This is our perspecive and our opinion. I understand yours and will repect it.

I understand what you are saying,.. i also think that there are some people on this board that have a holier than thou attitude about how much they ski and where they ski. I know what i ski and i am confident enough to not have to post it to this board every few days. But,... if you must here it is,....

Ski 40+ days a year, i have 2 kids in blazers and i own property on the mountain. Been skiing for over 40 years, worked full time on the ski patrol at a major resort, raced when i was in HS, skied 1000's of days in my life time,... does that qualify me?

Its the attitude of " you don't know shit because I ski this and I ski here" that motivated me to write my post. I NO financial interest in the mountain at all. (other than owning property) All I hear from this board is bitching about pretty much everything. It is getting rather old to be quite honest.

If I hear one more person say the term "Claybrooker" ,.....- like if you own a place at Claybrook you are a complete ahole???? (i dont own one) Listen, for $125K you can buy a place there + $10K you can buy a used Porsche. Bottom line - they are just condos - most likely that is what the Sugarbush Village was like 40 years ago. I do not get this class warfare BS for the life of me.

[skimore]

Friday morning I lined up 40 minutes early for a certain lift, not brovo and watch two senior management members take 2 runs each, a patroler take three runs with a guest. Not knocking the patroler for taking his runs, they deicated there time for us, just did not understand the guest, same patroler showed up Saturday with 2 guests this time for another set of laps. Just saying, maybe they thought they thought they can fly under the radar since the only way for the average customer to get there would be to hike or skin to it as all lifts started at 9, even though I think uphil traffic is not allowed at that time of the day, r they needed to make sure the sonw quality was good. I had no problem getitng my fair share of POW over the last three days, but

[HowieT2]

OK DJD66, I will agree that I came off like an a-hole and I did underestimated your investment. Totally on me and sorry. What I will say is this. What has SV done for me or any of my freinds that I ski with. This is our general thought. We don't really use the logde, we don't use the Farm house or the school house. I don't ever pay for the cat. The bar is now in the basement and always jammed. I have never had a wedding there. The landscaping is nice and all but whatever.

Before all that, we skied all the same terrain and the mountain was a family of skiers with mostly locals, long timers and the day trippers that were not a huge factor. The mountain was mostly untracked on pow days at first lift and the vibe was very laid back.

I do realize that developement happens. I get it. Some here view the developement as a great thing and for the most part if you have a family the new facilities are grand. You can debate me on this all you like, but what has the new management given us people that have been here for just the skiing other than: longer lines, mechanical problems, these wealthy "condo" owners traking up the hill at 7am. This is our perspecive and our opinion. I understand yours and will repect it.

I'm sorry, but this is not a valid argument. I pee in the woods therefore the resort doesn't need bathrooms. I have my own equipment therefore, the resort shouldn't invest in rentals. I don't have kids so therefore the resort shouldn't provide for them.
If you don't like the whole resort thing, don't utilize what it offers. But don't criticize the mgmt for doing what they need to do for the vast majority of their customers.

And complain all you want about the crp, it is vastly better than what was there before.

[Fourwide]

Seems to me that the complaints re. "Claybrookers" cutting the line is just standing on principle. I don't see much difference between that and ski lessons cutting the line. Just not a material inconvenience for those not enjoying the benefit--there's still plenty of mountain out there.

[Fourwide]

Hawk wrote--"Before all that, we skied all the same terrain and the mountain was a family of skiers with mostly locals, long timers and the day trippers that were not a huge factor. The mountain was mostly untracked on pow days at first lift and the vibe was very laid back."

I believe that mountain was insolvent.

[ThinkSno]

Seems to me that the complaints re. "Claybrookers" cutting the line is just standing on principle. I don't see much difference between that and ski lessons cutting the line. Just not a material inconvenience for those not enjoying the benefit--there's still plenty of mountain out there.

The differences: for ski lessons, you pay extra for lessons, not time spent standing in line. Claybrook residents pay extra for premium living on the mountain. Cutting lift lines should have nothing to do with living there.

The mountain should offer a speed pass (like in amusement parks) where you have to pay extra for line cutting-- so everyone has access to the same treatment.

[jwt]

The differences: for ski lessons, you pay extra for lessons, not time spent standing in line. Claybrook residents pay extra for premium living on the mountain. Cutting lift lines should have nothing to do with living there.

The mountain should offer a speed pass (like in amusement parks) where you have to pay extra for line cutting-- so everyone has access to the same treatment.

I don't know - free market dictates that anything goes and competition it the controlling variable - raise prices too much or give out too many goodies to the chosen few ( who fork out far more dollars than those of us who merely drop $2K-$4K for passes and schools.classes) then people vote with their feet.

If I were a Claybrooker, I'd expect some measure of amenities that others wouldn't have - like special access. However, if I were to rent mine, do they( renters) get special privileges? That wouldn't be cool for us - ( unless I were the owner renting - then I'd be selling that benefit on my rental site!)

Really, how many CB'ers can there be on a given powder weekend morning? 20? 30? And they can't all be experts either! Well-to-do people generally aren't - too busy being successful to take undo advantage of the benefit. I imagine the condo fees are steep too - taxes? out of this world.

Bottom line is people who can afford to will, and the rest of us need to understand that, eat it or move on or like me, be grateful they pay most of the income taxes in the country while I ski/skin/stay away from base/and occasionally go to Jay or some other place that 'over-built their expansion' just so I continue to be grateful for what we have here.

Anyone else notice we report 39" and everyone else far less? Bush Magic - even with a frozen lake behind us.

[madhavok]

kooks go home.

[Benski]

i know if you rent a claybrook you do not get to cut the line. i am not sure weather the people who own a shared unit get to cut. i hope these privileges are revoked after a certain period. I don't like it but it is too late do do anything about it other than not sell any more of these special privileges or sell it as a premium pass or ticket.

[bill-now]

Claybrookers who own less than a full share are given the line cutting privilege. it is given to immediate family members only. My understanding is that line cutting is only available for first time sales and not resales. So the issue should slowly go away in the next 50 years or so.

[Hawk]

It is valid to us. This is not just my opinion. Hey you like all this stuff they did so good for you guys. I say meh. Give me lifts that work and good conditions for most of my ski days.That is all that is important to me. Do you realize that we all just skied basically 2 months of crap before it snowed. But you know, it snowed so all is good. nothing to see here..... move along.....move along.

I'm sorry, but this is not a valid argument. I pee in the woods therefore the resort doesn't need bathrooms. I have my own equipment therefore, the resort shouldn't invest in rentals. I don't have kids so therefore the resort shouldn't provide for them.
If you don't like the whole resort thing, don't utilize what it offers. But don't criticize the mgmt for doing what they need to do for the vast majority of their customers.

And complain all you want about the crp, it is vastly better than what was there before.

[MntMan4Bush]

kooks go home.

Man what are you talking about. You're so Howley you don't even know you're Howley.

[MntMan4Bush]

I personally don't have an issue with the Claybrook privilege. I can understand why people do, but it's not too many people (currently) who use it and so long as lifties are diligent (are they?) to make sure it is only Claybrook owners and not their friends they want to ski with then it doesn't push me that far back in line. I mean it sucks and it's not my favorite policy, but whatever. I can live with it. However by nature of it's design it does create class warfare just like first class tickets on airlines, line cutter passes at Disney and the like. I.e. those who have get more privileges and those who don't don't. As a capitalist I can understand and accept this even though I'm on the bad side of it. But people not at least understanding why it ruffles others feathers is kind of strange. Almost like they're turning a blind eye and just accepting it as best practice because Win implemented it.

My issue is that we are seeing increased skier visits, therefore increased revenue, but we are not seeing the same put back into the day to day operations of the mountain. OK sure. We got a a new lodge and the ski school. However possibly a bit of a different motive there. I mean how many Claybrook units would you sell if the base lodge was an extended tent? Sure we all get the benefit of it and it is much nicer so thanks. But don't make it seem like it was all done for the skier base. It was done as an investment to make sure that returns on real estate investments paid off. Smart move and I don't question it. However let's focus on the skier niceties now.

I'm talking about more extensive lift maintenance. I'm not asking to replace all the lifts, but how about a radical overhaul of the main offenders and maybe a more rigorous off season maintenance plan to prevent the issues we've been plagued with the last couple of years, and especially this year. It's clear more is needed. Maybe you're just having bad luck, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Make some changes. It's clear they are needed. As I mentioned before I expect my car to start 100% of the time I turn the key. If one out of a hundred times my car didn't start or it died on me while driving I wouldn't find that acceptable. In fact I do regular maintenance to ensure it doesn't happen and when a more expensive part is required I pony up and buy it or replace the car if it's a lemon. If someone were paying me to drive them around, expecting a service, and that's how I made money I'd do even more than I do today.

Second is snow making. We bring it up every year. You are hearing it from your skier base directly that skis at other mountains and can compare. The snow being made is bare minimum to say X trails open and the quality of snow being made is poor. Maybe you think it's great because the way you make it ensures you can make less and save more money and keep the mountain open longer (I'm sure frozen hard packed death ice takes longer to melt than loose granular), but it is terrible to ski on. So you're partially right. Yes it is great snow being made to sustain and overall pay less to keep terrain open, but no it is not great to ski on. Again go ski Killington. Try and tell me it's even close on a snow making trail. I don't care if you spent more than last year on snow making. You are so far behind in the race for this that it isn't an accurate comparison. It's like being the tallest midget. See what other mountains are doing and look at it objectively. Is it better snow? Yes. Do you want to make the change to give your skiers a better experience? That's up to you I guess. Right now we all know what decision you've made from you current and prior actions. Sorry to say.

Years ago you wouldn't here most of us complain about this. The mountain was quite. We knew there wasn't a ton of money coming in. The lift lines were short. We all spoke up and told our friends, colleagues and family about SB. I mean that was my go to conversation when I had nothing to say to anyone at a party or conference. "Do you ski? Well you have to try this place it's great......" Usually they'd respond with "Isn't that the one in Maine?" We wanted to actually see more people in the lines because we wanted the mountain to succeed and it was better than asking them what they did for work or how did they know so and so. When the snow making sucked and the lifts broke we figured no big deal. The mountain doesn't make enough to keep up, but the terrain and people are great, there's no lift lines and I can ski non-stop and I'm fine with it. I'll go to the bar after skiing and sit in my hard plastic cafeteria chair, sip my Long Trail at this rickety table and think about which run I'll start with tomorrow.

Now visits are up. You broke the record twice last year and once already this year. We know quad pack sales are up and you have discount tickets for sale all over. We know you're making money. Of course revenue does not always equal profit and I'm sure expenses went up too. I recognize we can't go to 100% lift replacement and turning the mountain into a snow globe with the snow guns over night. But let's look at what makes the user experience better. Early season we go to Killington. Not because they have a better lodge (It's pretty crummy). Not because they have better terrain. It's because they make good quality snow and lots of it. So think about it. I have a season pass and I ski for essentially free at SB (pre-paid), but I'm willing to shell out extra money to go elsewhere instead. Why is that? It's not because I like New Yorkers. (Zing!) In fact sometimes I stay up at SB and drive back down to Killington.

It's great when it's snowing and everyone is happy because we got a dumping of powder. Almost any mountain can produce smiles on that day. Blue Hill in Boston gets rave reviews then. It's what happens when mother nature is quiet and we're all grinding away on crust and getting tossed around a swale field as wet glop gets sprayed into your goggles.

But nobody listens to turtle.

[HowieT2]

It is valid to us. This is not just my opinion. Hey you like all this stuff they did so good for you guys. I say meh. Give me lifts that work and good conditions for most of my ski days.That is all that is important to me. Do you realize that we all just skied basically 2 months of crap before it snowed. But you know, it snowed so all is good. nothing to see here..... move along.....move along.

So basically you should go ski mad river. really, its so close and cheaper, why wouldnt you? obviously, because its only been open for about 10 days this whole season. and cant wait to hear your complaints about the lift line at the single on a powder day.

Just because there are other like minded individuals does not make your position valid. need I cite the litany of widely held beliefs that are demonstrably wrong. and just stating that this is your opinion doesnt make it reasonable. SV took over a neglected resort, which is why there were no crowds back in the day and we had this gem of a mtn to ourselves. They have made significant capital investments in facilities, lifts, snowmaking and grooming. You can reasonably argue the merits of those investments, but saying they havent done "anything" is wrong.

[HowieT2]

I personally don't have an issue with the Claybrook privilege. I can understand why people do, but it's not too many people (currently) who use it and so long as lifties are diligent (are they?) to make sure it is only Claybrook owners and not their friends they want to ski with then it doesn't push me that far back in line. I mean it sucks and it's not my favorite policy, but whatever. I can live with it. However by nature of it's design it does create class warfare just like first class tickets on airlines, line cutter passes at Disney and the like. I.e. those who have get more privileges and those who don't don't. As a capitalist I can understand and accept this even though I'm on the bad side of it. But people not at least understanding why it ruffles others feathers is kind of strange. Almost like they're turning a blind eye and just accepting it as best practice because Win implemented it.

My issue is that we are seeing increased skier visits, therefore increased revenue, but we are not seeing the same put back into the day to day operations of the mountain. OK sure. We got a a new lodge and the ski school. However possibly a bit of a different motive there. I mean how many Claybrook units would you sell if the base lodge was an extended tent? Sure we all get the benefit of it and it is much nicer so thanks. But don't make it seem like it was all done for the skier base. It was done as an investment to make sure that returns on real estate investments paid off. Smart move and I don't question it. However let's focus on the skier niceties now.

I'm talking about more extensive lift maintenance. I'm not asking to replace all the lifts, but how about a radical overhaul of the main offenders and maybe a more rigorous off season maintenance plan to prevent the issues we've been plagued with the last couple of years, and especially this year. It's clear more is needed. Maybe you're just having bad luck, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Make some changes. It's clear they are needed. As I mentioned before I expect my car to start 100% of the time I turn the key. If one out of a hundred times my car didn't start or it died on me while driving I wouldn't find that acceptable. In fact I do regular maintenance to ensure it doesn't happen and when a more expensive part is required I pony up and buy it or replace the car if it's a lemon. If someone were paying me to drive them around, expecting a service, and that's how I made money I'd do even more than I do today.

Second is snow making. We bring it up every year. You are hearing it from your skier base directly that skis at other mountains and can compare. The snow being made is bare minimum to say X trails open and the quality of snow being made is poor. Maybe you think it's great because the way you make it ensures you can make less and save more money and keep the mountain open longer (I'm sure frozen hard packed death ice takes longer to melt than loose granular), but it is terrible to ski on. So you're partially right. Yes it is great snow being made to sustain and overall pay less to keep terrain open, but no it is not great to ski on. Again go ski Killington. Try and tell me it's even close on a snow making trail. I don't care if you spent more than last year on snow making. You are so far behind in the race for this that it isn't an accurate comparison. It's like being the tallest midget. See what other mountains are doing and look at it objectively. Is it better snow? Yes. Do you want to make the change to give your skiers a better experience? That's up to you I guess. Right now we all know what decision you've made from you current and prior actions. Sorry to say.

Years ago you wouldn't here most of us complain about this. The mountain was quite. We knew there wasn't a ton of money coming in. The lift lines were short. We all spoke up and told our friends, colleagues and family about SB. I mean that was my go to conversation when I had nothing to say to anyone at a party or conference. "Do you ski? Well you have to try this place it's great......" Usually they'd respond with "Isn't that the one in Maine?" We wanted to actually see more people in the lines because we wanted the mountain to succeed and it was better than asking them what they did for work or how did they know so and so. When the snow making sucked and the lifts broke we figured no big deal. The mountain doesn't make enough to keep up, but the terrain and people are great, there's no lift lines and I can ski non-stop and I'm fine with it. I'll go to the bar after skiing and sit in my hard plastic cafeteria chair, sip my Long Trail at this rickety table and think about which run I'll start with tomorrow.

Now visits are up. You broke the record twice last year and once already this year. We know quad pack sales are up and you have discount tickets for sale all over. We know you're making money. Of course revenue does not always equal profit and I'm sure expenses went up too. I recognize we can't go to 100% lift replacement and turning the mountain into a snow globe with the snow guns over night. But let's look at what makes the user experience better. Early season we go to Killington. Not because they have a better lodge (It's pretty crummy). Not because they have better terrain. It's because they make good quality snow and lots of it. So think about it. I have a season pass and I ski for essentially free at SB (pre-paid), but I'm willing to shell out extra money to go elsewhere instead. Why is that? It's not because I like New Yorkers. (Zing!) In fact sometimes I stay up at SB and drive back down to Killington.

It's great when it's snowing and everyone is happy because we got a dumping of powder. Almost any mountain can produce smiles on that day. Blue Hill in Boston gets rave reviews then. It's what happens when mother nature is quiet and we're all grinding away on crust and getting tossed around a swale field as wet glop gets sprayed into your goggles.

But nobody listens to turtle.

so now we are basically back to the snow making debate. I dont feel comfortable expressing an opinion on the quality of the snow that sb makes. But they have been buying new snow guns, year after year, which are rather expensive. So its not like the equipment is old and out of date. Do these new guns make bad snow??? is sugarbush the only resort to have purchased these devices? the answer is obviously, no. So why all the complaints about the quality of the snow that was made. Are they intentionally making bad snow? that would be odd. Is it cheaper to make bad snow instead of good snow? I would find that hard to believe.
Is there some type of skill or experience making snow that SB lacks which results in bad snow? That could be.