A Great Mountain

[HowieT2]

Here are my thoughts, for what it's worth.

I've lost most of the respect that I had for Win based upon his comment to Angler on this board. I get that angler pisses people off but I also get his level of frustration. For Win to act like a petulant little child with his comments on a public forum say alot about where his head is at and probably explain the current state of affairs on moutain.

To those that think all is well, so be it. From what I know, I don't have the same positive outlook but I'm still buying a pass for next year. The reality is that lift operations are in shambles. North and South function as almost independent operations and rookie mistakes keep getting made. My guess is these mistakes are contributing factors in bringing down the lifts. Replacing lifts won't solve the issues. I don't know how SB got to this point, I have heard rumors but no facts as to what happened to the department.

As for my take on the Quad Packs and other specials, I have to wonder is these specials are a way to get a quick cash infusion to meet debt load. Win mentioned the $50mil that was invested and a good portion of that is going to be debt. One doesn't have to go far back in time or even leave the state to know the familiar pattern of ski areas that try and develop and can't service their debt, heck that's how the current owners got SB. Hope I'm wrong but this wouldn't be the first time where owners over extend and skimp on mountain operations beginning the downward spiral.

Like I mentioned previously, I am getting a pass by the May deadline for next year. I want the mountain to suceed, when it's running smoothly it's a great mountain. If you think the lift issues this year aren't going to impact the mountain next year, I think you are sadly mistaken. There is an impact locally and on tourists. A friend get's a pass through the shop he works at. This is the first year and last year at SB as they are returning to Stowe next year. I know we can look at statistics that show lifts are running most of the time but the reality is lifts going down has become the running joke among locals and industry personnel. This has an impact when an industry employee is asked for a recommendation on where to ski. As for tourists, a person that I know thorugh work came up with friends for a long weekend when south was having issues with bravo and HG. They had an ok weekend but this was the first time in years the group had been to sugarbush and they won't be returning anytime soon due to the lifts. When you're traveling, why go to SB and hope the lifts are running when you can go to Stowe or Killington? This is a sentiment that I have heard more than once sharing a chair with people having their trip impacted by lifts being down for maintenance.

I really hope SB can recover from the lift issues this season. The late winter snow certainly helped improve skier moral. I can only imagine the comments that Win is getting from those that have invested hundred's of thousands in slopeside real estate. Us dirtbag locals just post on message boards with a limited audience. My experience is those that invest that heavily into a vacation unit have a certain level of expectations and usually aren't shy about complaining directly to ownership.

Sorry about the long rant. Hope Win lets my pass purchase go through for next year

I gotta say, I have been disappointed with the communication from the the Mtn the last few years. But if I was win, I wouldn't have responded to the kind of rants and complaints that have proliferated here on this board. They were insulting and frankly, disrespectful.

[Go Figure]

I gotta say, I have been disappointed with the communication from the the Mtn the last few years. But if I was win, I wouldn't have responded to the kind of rants and complaints that have proliferated here on this board. They were insulting and frankly, disrespectful.

Win certainly had no problems being insulting and disrespectful in his book, read it.

[s_angel0]

Full disclosure.....we are loyal quad-packers (except for season pass for our 8 yr old) and are happy to have them offered.....but I asked before and I will again...why no dissing of the 4-20s passes....nothing....nada.....sat crowds seem to correlate quite nicely with when these first started being sold as well.

[angler]

Full disclosure.....we are loyal quad-packers (except for season pass for our 8 yr old) and are happy to have them offered.....but I asked before and I will again...why no dissing of the 4-20s passes....nothing....nada.....sat crowds seem to correlate quite nicely with when these first started being sold as well.

I think they do add to the crowd just not to the same extent imo.

[angler]

I gotta say, I have been disappointed with the communication from the the Mtn the last few years. But if I was win, I wouldn't have responded to the kind of rants and complaints that have proliferated here on this board. They were insulting and frankly, disrespectful.

There were plenty of posts that were respectful. He just hasn't answered the question," what is the plan for the future"? Not hard to do unless there is no plan. When you speak of being disrespectful and insulting Win hasn't been a Saint in that department. Some would argue that its disrespectful and insulting to all the loyal season pass holders to stay silent on what the future holds. We can't even get a date on when the VD will be installed. So lets be real here. The lack of communication came way before this thread started. Sorry if you feel like this is another negative post.

[shipyardcreek]

All the complaining about long lift lines is amusing. Back in the day, 1 hour lines were not uncommon on weekends. A good day was 12,000 vertical feet, skiing from 9 to 4. Even on the Saturday horror show the first of February, I got 17,000 vertical feet, and that was with quitting at 3:00 because everyone was frozen and were ready for beer and VT cheese.

The big issue I have is with the chaos at the back of the lift lines. The corrals need to be extended.

[MntMan4Bush]

Full disclosure.....we are loyal quad-packers (except for season pass for our 8 yr old) and are happy to have them offered.....but I asked before and I will again...why no dissing of the 4-20s passes....nothing....nada.....sat crowds seem to correlate quite nicely with when these first started being sold as well.

Fair question. First nothing personal against quad pack buyers. I mean how could you not buy them at that price. It's insane. Wifey is taking a break from the season pass next year and going that route.

I think the 20's pass happened at a time when we were all thinking the mountain needs more people to help it along. At least for me it did. I was excited to see new faces (I'm sick of seeing a few as it is.....) I was a bit jealous and nervous at how many it would add, but it didn't seem to change all that much. A few more people, but not a ton. Looking around the bar apres I don't see many and on the mountain with helmets its hard to tell. Though in full disclosure I'm not a great judge of age. People either look like they're 12 or 70 to me. If they don't then they must be my age I assume.

The addition of the quad packs though was an absolute fire sale. You'd be an idiot not to buy one if you were going for at least 4 days. I'm sorry but at $50 a ticket if that isn't appealing to someone and you like to spend money then by all means give me the difference for a full price ticket, I'll go buy a tack hammer and hit you in the head with it and keep the change. It would be doing us both a favor.

Maybe though it's a combination we're seeing. Maybe quad packs alone would not be so bad, but with a 20's pass, a spring pass, a free cat ride up Ellen and tire rotation with the purchase of a small coffee at Honeydew it's adding up. Though my gut says the quad pack has more of an impact by itself then any of them individually. Again to be fair this is all speculation based on zero insight, facts or actual knowledge, but that's never stopped anyone from making an argument on the internet before. I know someone who swears a bakers dozen is 14 and can prove it with interwebz.

As it relates to Win. I honestly can't blame the guy for his responses or lack of here, but I will. I mean I buy a pass. I have a vested interest in the mountain, and selfishly my experience on it. He was a big shot at Merrill or Mercer or somewhere. They're all the same (actually not any more. Now Bank of America and Great West.) But he should know above all else that you have to separate personal and business. No business is run 100% complaint free. You can't please everyone. When 0.5% of your client base complains you kind of listen, but you gloss over. You give it a cursory glance (or have your staff do it) because maybe something legit crops up or you get a good idea, but you don't spend a lot of time fretting over it. When that population increases, regardless of if you want to hear it or not, you listen. Then you plan, respond and you act. Working for a public company that reports to shareholders that should be ingrained. SB is not public and we are not share holders. I get it. It's also not exactly like a single purchase consumer product or commodity either though. It requires a base of regular customers that prepay (season passes) and act like micro investors to fund operations.

We were all Win fanboys back in the day. He was more than happy to log in, accept praise, post, respond, update so long as we were all laying on compliments like Nicki Manaj applies makeup. I don't know that anyone has personally attacked Win. Criticizing how someone runs a business that you are a paying customer for is not disrespectful in itself. Levying personal insults at an individual would be,but where is that happening?

So as I said I can't blame him because I can certainly understand. I mean Shady jumps on here and posts. No one is taking him to task and no one should be. The employees at the mountain do as they're directed and do a good job of it. If Shady came on and said that was it. He was done here I wouldn't have a word to say. I'd probably do the same at some point. But as the owner with the ultimate responsibility it all points to you. Win doesn't owe us any posting, data or facts. But because he set the precedent when times were good that it was his management style (for which we praised him for and he got our support) and now when times are rocky he clams up it is a bit disappointing. I feel a little let down. It would be like if you found out Pedro juiced. Thank God that head hunter was such a skinny MoFo. There's no way.

[Hawk]

Your history and Mine are completely different. I have never waited that long in a line until this year. I am not sure when you are referring to but I don't see it.

All the complaining about long lift lines is amusing. Back in the day, 1 hour lines were not uncommon on weekends. A good day was 12,000 vertical feet, skiing from 9 to 4. Even on the Saturday horror show the first of February, I got 17,000 vertical feet, and that was with quitting at 3:00 because everyone was frozen and were ready for beer and VT cheese.

The big issue I have is with the chaos at the back of the lift lines. The corrals need to be extended.

[Fourwide]

MM4B wrote:

"We were all Win fanboys back in the day. He was more than happy to log in, accept praise, post, respond, update so long as we were all laying on compliments like Nicki Manaj applies makeup. I don't know that anyone has personally attacked Win. Criticizing how someone runs a business that you are a paying customer for is not disrespectful in itself. Levying personal insults at an individual would be,but where is that happening?"

I'm happy to see that the "Comedy Hour" portion of this thread has now commenced. For how many consecutive years have the snowmaking/lift maintenance topics appeared? Five? Ten? Ownership has zero obligation to respond to chatrooms. I'm happy to receive whatever info he divulges. SB isn't a cooperative.

[southvillager]

Your history and Mine are completely different. I have never waited that long in a line until this year. I am not sure when you are referring to but I don't see it.

For sure...back in the '70s, before detachable quads, the lines were crazy long. If you got 10 lift rides in a day, you were doing great, and probably skiing mid week. On a busy Saturday, getting only 7 or 8 runs in was not unusual. Most lifts were doubles, some triples, and lots of surface lifts like Pomas (discs), t-bars, or j-bars for short ascents. As an example, North Lynx was a Poma surface lift, it was awesome. Once you got up there, you had the place to yourself, like Castlerock. Some of the bigger resorts has a gondola, like Sugarbush, Stowe, etc., but they were slow, too. The lines were long, the uphill rides were slow, and the skiing was slower.

Then in the eighties, all the resorts put up detachable quads, and built lifts that climbed 2/3 of the mountain instead of top to bottom. The difference in uphill capacity of a fixed double and a detachable quad is astounding. Double the seats, double the chairs, double the speed.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Your history and Mine are completely different. I have never waited that long in a line until this year. I am not sure when you are referring to but I don't see it.

Probably in the 80s when everyone seems to have been a skier and every mountain was busy? Before my time, but that's the way most people make it sound.

[HowieT2]

Win certainly had no problems being insulting and disrespectful in his book, read it.

what does that have to with anything?

[HowieT2]

Win certainly had no problems being insulting and disrespectful in his book, read it.

what does that have to with anything?

[chrisinvermont]

All the complaining about long lift lines is amusing. Back in the day, 1 hour lines were not uncommon on weekends.

But back in the day it was that way everywhere mainly due to the lifts. Today is different and SB is trying to compete with ski areas that don't have the lines. I skied Smuggs all through the 90's so I get the long lines. The trade off is lower ticket prices. I guess with the quad packs some are getting the lower ticket prices, just pass holders getting hosed.

[HowieT2]

There were plenty of posts that were respectful. He just hasn't answered the question," what is the plan for the future"? Not hard to do unless there is no plan. When you speak of being disrespectful and insulting Win hasn't been a Saint in that department. Some would argue that its disrespectful and insulting to all the loyal season pass holders to stay silent on what the future holds. We can't even get a date on when the VD will be installed. So lets be real here. The lack of communication came way before this thread started. Sorry if you feel like this is another negative post.

I dont have a problem with negative posts. My problem is with you making the same negative posts for 4 months running. That is why I suggested you stop beating a dead horse.

Like I said before, I too feel the communication from the mtn has been lacking the last few years. However, that doesnt make it right to go on and on endlessly in an insulting fashion.

personally, my conjecture is that they were very open about the future plans up through and including the building of the schoolhouse/farmhouse. The next big item was rice brook and they had the plans posted up on the wall at the gatehouse. Then the financial crisis hit and rice brook got delayed 3-4 years (totally reasonable). So, I think that experience, getting burned on the timing of rice brook, specifically, and the loss of confidence we all suffered from the financial crisis, caused them to clam up about future plans. so for instance, they arent talking about the valey house lift replacement until all the permits are issued, i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
I think its a mistake as I've said before, but thats my take on the situation. I think they need to show some confidence about the future to build morale on the team of pass holders and employees. Not everything is going to work out, but everyone with a stake in it, needs to have hope for the future. With hope comes happiness.