A Great Mountain

[Hawk]

I can't blame Angler. I feel the same way. I am not quite as vocal about it but I agree with some of what he is saying. I have no idea who he is but I would ski with him. Hell I ski with anybody.

[Plowboy]

Oh yeah.... the Sunny D was closed for maintenance on Sunday...the last official day for the Park.....nice 1!!! Talk about a chair that needs replacing?????? T-Bar??????

[angler]

All you do is come on this board and complain, whine and bitch about the same thing over and over and over again. If there was a moderator, you would have been banned long ago.

Seriously, This coming from a person who threatens to punch someone?

[HowieT2]

Seriously, This coming from a person who threatens to punch someone?

Reading comprehension not your strong suit?
I said your posts make me want to punch you. I didn't threaten to do so. Trying to explain how annoying your agenda is, but you obviously don't care.

[HowieT2]

I can't blame Angler. I feel the same way. I am not quite as vocal about it but I agree with some of what he is saying. I have no idea who he is but I would ski with him. Hell I ski with anybody.

The difference is, you contribute to the discourse on here about all topics, good, bad and ugly. When u say something, there is legitimacy to it. He is only here to complain about the lifts incessantly all season.
I think we all feel the same way. I bet win feels the same way. Lift operations were unacceptable. But like I said, at some point, you just gotta stop beating a dead horse. And a decent human being would take the hint that he is being annoying and stfu already.

[HowieT2]

I find it interesting how some people on this forum including yourself feel the need to demonize. Not sure why you would make an assumption that I don't like Win. I don't know him to like or dislike him. My observations are not personal they are based on how the mountain is managed. Knowing that I am going to get flamed for this I will still say it anyway. Even the letter that went out regarding "taking responsibility" for the events that happened this season really was disguised behind the fact that mother nature didn't cooperate. If you really read the letter the essence was without mother nature you can't open all the lifts. Without all the lifts open the mountain can't handle the crowds and the snow making trails can't handle the pressure. Thats been my point all along. So if you are management and you know from the past few years that you can't depend on mother nature then you need to address it. The letter really only spoke to lift maintenance. In my world thats not taking 100% ownership and responsibility for the issues at hand. I guess we just have different expectations. Just because mother nature showed to the party and dumped 6ft of snow in the month of March does not change the structural issues at hand.
P.S.
You don't ever have to worry about skiing with me as the people in my world don't threaten to punch people in the face or tell people that they never meet that they need drugs. Maybe the people that get so angry over posting on this forum might take a look in the mirror. Just a thought..................

Sorry I missed this initially.

Maybe you hadn't noticed but there is a trail pod called castlerock where there is no snowmaking. So when there is no natural snow, said lift and trails are closed. Those skiers who would be skiing castlerock are forced onto the other lifts. Furthermore, when there is no natural snow, the woods are closed and all those skiers are forced to take 2 minute groomer runs as opposed to 10 minute or longer runs through the woods. Hence when there is no natural snow there is a vast increase in skiers using the lifts that are operating. That is why there were unusually long lift lines in January even when all open lifts were operating. It wasn't that there were vastly more skiers than in the past as some had speculated was the result of the quad packs. The reason was that all natural snow trails and woods were closed. In fact, as soon as castlerock and the woods opened up, there were no issues with lift lines, when all the lifts were operating. So win, was correct to point that out in his letter.
Therefore, there really isn't a need to increase uphill capacity except for maybe peak periods (and as a backup for when a lift goes down either mechanically or wind hold) and that is what they are doing by replacing the vh double with a quad. Other than that, they just have to get the existing lifts to operate reliably.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I believe that the majority of sb skiers are content that there is no snowmaking on castlerock. So if your point is that win should put snowmaking on castlerock, then you are in the minority. Possibly a minority of 1.

[Ride Delaware ?]

Snowmaking would kill Castlerock. With snowmaking comes trail widening and grooming. Hydro logging will eliminate that windy narrow old school feel and then those trails would have to be groomed every night because they will get skied off. Nobody who really skis Casterock and knows the mountain wants this.

[shadyjay]

Oh god.... I could only imagine making snow on a trail like Middle Earth or Lift Line. Only thing I could see is a line going down to the lift from Downspout, then down the runout. Hit that last corner before the lift and the runout and you buy yourself some more time on either side of the snowy period (early/mid Dec, April).

It sure would make things a little easier for us. Stretching a gun 6 hose lengths from the top of the connection at Downspout down towards the lift can be "fun".

[MntMan4Bush]

Sorry I missed this initially.

It wasn't that there were vastly more skiers than in the past as some had speculated was the result of the quad packs.

Speculation your honor. I move to strike. (bumpcrasher did I do that right? Would you have used more southern accent and tried to look more like Colonel Sanders?)The details surrounding Win's statement of skier visits did not specify Saturdays which most likely would feel the impact of quad packs the most.

However the rest of your post is a solid point that I have agreed with. Less lifts open will make the crowds feel larger as we will all be congregating at the same choke point. However I personally feel that it was a combination of increased Saturday visits in combination of your above points that made it feel worse. I don't think anyone, to include Angler, is recommending snow making on CR. I have seen it suggested he is saying this before but I doubt it. If he is then he is likely a minority of one.

Regardless I don't think just one lift (CR) down to it having no snow making makes that much of an impact. However if snow making for HG, SB, NL, GH, etc fed trails are not all blasting then that too will create larger crowds because less trails/lifts will be open. I think every lift apart from CR and Summit have snow making capabilities on at least one trail. I could be wrong and if I am my apologies. SB with one lift down is manageable. With more than one it is not.

This has all been said about the snow making though. I agree to not rally more about it now. I don't know who is in the majority, your mindset or mine, and there's really no way to know so we will each have our own opinions. It's late in the season and obviously no more snow will/should be made. I'll save all my future comments for next season. Be sure not to read my thread next year as I don't want to put you off. If however the mountain steps up and blasts away next year with the good stuff and plenty of it. Well I will also post and give credit where it is due. I'll leave this subject with I would love to see what Win's plan for all of this. I'm talking long term. If he says in 5 years they build a new pond, 6 years install new pipes, 7 years buy X more guns and Y more the year following it may be far down the road, but at least I know it is recognized and on the radar. Believe it or not I am patient so long as I know the issue is recognized.

The posting every time a lift goes down is a bit petty. However to each their own. Some people blow off steam that way. No one should get to riled up about an internet post unless it has to do with the authenticity of Justin Bieber's singing credentials. No one wins and internet fight. No one.

[HowieT2]

Speculation your honor. I move to strike. (bumpcrasher did I do that right? Would you have used more southern accent and tried to look more like Colonel Sanders?)The details surrounding Win's statement of skier visits did not specify Saturdays which most likely would feel the impact of quad packs the most.

However the rest of your post is a solid point that I have agreed with. Less lifts open will make the crowds feel larger as we will all be congregating at the same choke point. However I personally feel that it was a combination of increased Saturday visits in combination of your above points that made it feel worse. I don't think anyone, to include Angler, is recommending snow making on CR. I have seen it suggested he is saying this before but I doubt it. If he is then he is likely a minority of one.

Regardless I don't think just one lift (CR) down to it having no snow making makes that much of an impact. However if snow making for HG, SB, NL, GH, etc fed trails are not all blasting then that too will create larger crowds because less trails/lifts will be open. I think every lift apart from CR and Summit have snow making capabilities on at least one trail. I could be wrong and if I am my apologies. SB with one lift down is manageable. With more than one it is not.

This has all been said about the snow making though. I agree to not rally more about it now. I don't know who is in the majority, your mindset or mine, and there's really no way to know so we will each have our own opinions. It's late in the season and obviously no more snow will/should be made. I'll save all my future comments for next season. Be sure not to read my thread next year as I don't want to put you off. If however the mountain steps up and blasts away next year with the good stuff and plenty of it. Well I will also post and give credit where it is due. I'll leave this subject with I would love to see what Win's plan for all of this. I'm talking long term. If he says in 5 years they build a new pond, 6 years install new pipes, 7 years buy X more guns and Y more the year following it may be far down the road, but at least I know it is recognized and on the radar. Believe it or not I am patient so long as I know the issue is recognized.

The posting every time a lift goes down is a bit petty. However to each their own. Some people blow off steam that way. No one should get to riled up about an internet post unless it has to do with the authenticity of Justin Bieber's singing credentials. No one wins and internet fight. No one.

Speculation- the only evidence I have seen is that win said in an interview that skier visits were down 9% as of January and then he explained here, 5% as of mid February or so. Plus my personal observations of the parking lots which appeared to be no more more crowded than my recollection of last season.
Furthermore, my experience and that of the majority of skiers I know reveals how being limited to groomers vastly increases the use of the lifts even when the number of skiers remain constant. When there is natural snow, we will typically take the bravo up in the morning (before any crowds) and ski in the woods or on castlerock. Each run, whether in the woods or on cr takes much longer than when skiing groomers. When there is natural snow, we may get 3-5 laps in a morning. But on groomers, it's boom and your down. Maybe a minute or 2 down and back on the lift. Same skiers, but using the lifts much more as when there is natural snow.

It may be that Saturday/holidays there were more skiers, but I haven't seen any evidence to that effect. some May question whether overall skier visits were actually down, but that is mere speculation. Even assuming they weren't, i doubt they were in reality, up significantly (why would win say they were down if they were up?). Bottom line is, if they were up that is a good thing (not for me personally, or selfishly but for the mtn and the valley community), and the reasonable response In terms of capital investment is to replace the vh double with a quad. Now, I guess, one could argue they need to replace the heavens gate lift with a new quad, but as the triple isn't that old and a quad wouldn't add that much capacity, overhauling the existing lift so it operates reliably, seems to me to be a reasonable allocation of resources.
As far as snowmaking, my feeling is they got the trails open reasonably promptly this season. Certainly no worse than a few years ago. It used to be that the whole north lynx pod wasn't ready until mlk weekend. This season it was open around New Years or before. So I didn't have an issue with the quantity of snow they made. I understand, there have been complaints about the quality of the snow being made, but I don't feel qualified to comment about that, nor do I understand why that would be or what could done to address that. I think that they have spent money on snowmaking every year but that much of that is unseen.
Fwiw-there is snowmaking off the summit. It's only castlerock that doesn't have snowmaking, and that is by choice (it's not like they're just being cheap).
I do think after rice brook was delayed a couple of years, they became less open with communication about their future plans. Probably a natural consequence of being unable to execute as soon as they expected. I wish that were otherwise, and think it's a mistake. It baffles me why they aren't talking about the vh double replacement. People would be psyched and even understanding if it doesn't happen as quickly as we hope.

I have no problem with you posting anything. Your posts are constructive even if I may disagree on some issues. They r not monotonously negative as r anglers.

[angler]

Reading comprehension not your strong suit?

I already understand that people who feel insecure like to put others down so they feel better about themselves. So you can stop illustrating that point.

[angler]

Sorry I missed this initially.

Maybe you hadn't noticed but there is a trail pod called castlerock where there is no snowmaking. So when there is no natural snow, said lift and trails are closed. Those skiers who would be skiing castlerock are forced onto the other lifts. Furthermore, when there is no natural snow, the woods are closed and all those skiers are forced to take 2 minute groomer runs as opposed to 10 minute or longer runs through the woods. Hence when there is no natural snow there is a vast increase in skiers using the lifts that are operating. That is why there were unusually long lift lines in January even when all open lifts were operating. It wasn't that there were vastly more skiers than in the past as some had speculated was the result of the quad packs. The reason was that all natural snow trails and woods were closed. In fact, as soon as castlerock and the woods opened up, there were no issues with lift lines, when all the lifts were operating. So win, was correct to point that out in his letter.
Therefore, there really isn't a need to increase uphill capacity except for maybe peak periods (and as a backup for when a lift goes down either mechanically or wind hold) and that is what they are doing by replacing the vh double with a quad. Other than that, they just have to get the existing lifts to operate reliably.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I believe that the majority of sb skiers are content that there is no snowmaking on castlerock. So if your point is that win should put snowmaking on castlerock, then you are in the minority. Possibly a minority of 1.

When did I ever suggest that snow making should happen on CR? All along my point has been when you can't open the top of the mountain, the lifts, and the snow making can't handle the skier traffic. Can we agree on that? If we can then the logical step would be to fix the issue at hand or this will be an ongoing problem. The mountain needs new lifts not just one and it needs extensive improvements when it comes to snowmaking. Why should anyone be ok with long lines just because its Jan? Its also disingenuous to say that once the snow fell, top was open, and woods were safe to party in that the lift lines where fine. Every Sat the lines were stupid. It's my belief that the quad packs added to this. As you point out SB is supposed to get a new VD lift. The question is when? What is the 5 year plan? Not once has ownership answered this question. So with the lack of response to these questions one is left wondering when, and are these that changes really coming?

Im sure you will find a way to attack this as well, but here goes. If your curious, check out this link and video http://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/condit...g-investments/ Let me preempt by saying I know SB does not have the same $$ to spend but this is how you make a mountain better. As MtnMan4Bush said, what is on the radar and what is the time frame?

[MntMan4Bush]

Howie - I'm not suggesting Win is lying about numbers. No reason for him to and I give him the benefit of the doubt on honesty. His statement could still be 100% true and mine as well. We could be down 5% as of Feb because the conditions, and I'm talking mother nature here not anything SB related, were so horrible that maybe less people came up on weekdays, stayed for 3 day weekends or even skied Sundays. Sundays has been especially vacant, but then again it usually is.

I mean if I bought a quad pack (I didn't) and had plans to come up for a weekend I'd ski Saturday for sure. That's the full day ski, get hammered at the bar, pass out on the worn leather ski couch type of day. You can't pull that crap on a Sunday with work on Monday. So now I've burned a ticket on a pretty poor day, but hey I had some fun. Sunday is the same conditions so I say forget it. Averages are averages for a reason. Highs and lows. The odds are the end of the season will HAVE to get better. It has to mathematically unless we had the type of crummy ski winter Nostradamus predicted back when he was just a lower case "n". So I sit on my remaining 3 tickets and don't ski Sunday but maybe have brunch at the Hostel. Now the good snow is here and I have 3 tickets to use. It used to be after Feb vacation this place was a ghost town. It feels like more people for sure, but again it's still the later part of the season so not as many as earlier, but certainly more than years past.

By my example above, which is all speculation as well, the numbers for the year to date in Feb could be down, but Saturday visits could have been up. Add in all that you say about lifts not running and which lifts as well as the trees not being open forcing people to groomers (all of which I 100% agree with) and the combination of the two make a nightmare scenario. My observations of the parking lot differ from yours I guess. For the first time ever I had to park in the last row of the employee lot. I mean I was so far away they were speaking French Canadian and drinking Labatts Bleu (not Blue) in the car next to me. I needed my passport to even make it to the access road. I was far. Not once have I ever been that far away. Not even close. So my observations, and the people I ski with, differ from yours and your group. I guess in any speculative situation like that this will happen. I will however accept that I could be wrong and somehow it feels more crowded without it being so. But you have to allow that my scenario could also be true. It is certainly plausible.

Not that Win owes us anything, but I woudl love to know:

- % +/- skier visits as of today
- % skier visits +/- for Saturdays only
- Number of season passes, day tickets and quad packs bought last year versus numbers this year.
- Number of unused quad pack tickets

That would paint a pretty good picture of volumes as well as the revenues. I mean assuming day tickets and season passes evened out if there were 20k quad packs sold last year and only 15k executed and 40k this year and only 20k executed we'd see that there were 20k more visits (5k packs X4) from them as well as the additional realized revenue that did not get used against expenses. Though I agree it is an insurance policy by the mountain, but sometimes I hear those insurance companies do well financially.

Just something I'd like to see as I'm curious. I'm the guy that enjoys doing his taxes. So I'm that guy. Sorry. I remember a time when I was skiing years back and we were all saying we'd like to see the mountain have more skiers so they would do better financially and improve where needed and get some profits for the improvements they had made to date. I still want the mountain to do well, but I'm like a remora attached to the shark. Take me along for the ride.

[Fourwide]

MM4B wrote: "Speculation your honor. I move to strike. (bumpcrasher did I do that right? Would you have used more southern accent and tried to look more like Colonel Sanders?)The details surrounding Win's statement of skier visits did not specify Saturdays which most likely would feel the impact of quad packs the most."

I can't imagine why Win would disclose operating results that didn't include Saturdays.

Anyway, has anyone demo'd the new Taylormade SLDR driver?

[Hawk]

I stand by my original statement. There is still a month of skiing left for all those people to cash in the quad packs. April is usually a month that we all get the mountain to ourselves. No one is up here. If it is packed then that might indicate that the visits were delayed because of the bad conditions we encountered in January and early February. The final numbers are not in and Win was speaking about the season as a whole up to that point. One thing that no one has asked is How many weekends did we have that the individual numbers were up. Either way I stand by my claim that quad packs have boosted the crowds and diminished the SB skier experience. Again my take.