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  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    you still havent said "why" they need to replace those lifts at LP. you do realize, that you're talking about several million dollars per lift. Its not something that is just done for the heck of it. I mean, if you got the cash, I'm sure we would all appreciate your donation of a new lift or two.

    as for the summit, yes its slower than molasses, but i dont see the need for a lift from the bottom to the summit. I'm perfectly content doing laps on the nrx and summit and not going all the way down to the base.
    I'm not sure what you're not understanding. You asked me a question and I answered it. Since you would appreciate a new lift or two maybe you should ask ownership to pony up after all it's their mountain. I'm not sure when you last skied at another mountain that SB considers their competition. If you do I think you would see how antiquated the lift system is. Again this is my opinion not sure why you feel the need to get defensive every time you ask me a question that I answer.

  2. #362

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dblshot View Post
    From Killington GM:
    We spend several million dollars a year on what we call “maintenance capital”. The first priority every year is lift maintenance items that help keep the lifts running reliably.
    ..now if they could hire a few of K's lift mechanics....Howie is right, almost all lift issues were from inexperienced lift mechanics making problems worse except the wind holds and the HG comm line being ripped off by the wind to name a few exceptions.
    So who's fault is it that they can't hire or keep good mechanics?

  3. #363

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    Remember the lifts 2 yrs ago ran at 99.3 % of the time the lifts are not the problem .they are putting $ 1,000,000 into the lifts this year and the valley house is not going to happen this year

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by angler View Post
    I'm not sure what you're not understanding. You asked me a question and I answered it. Since you would appreciate a new lift or two maybe you should ask ownership to pony up after all it's their mountain. I'm not sure when you last skied at another mountain that SB considers their competition. If you do I think you would see how antiquated the lift system is. Again this is my opinion not sure why you feel the need to get defensive every time you ask me a question that I answer.
    I'm sorry if that is how you interpreted my post. It wasn't meant that way (I've been on trial all week so I may be in battle mode) I was seriously asking why u think those lifts at lp need to be replaced with new lifts. Do u think they need more capacity than the current lifts provide? Because if not, I would think that doing whatever kind of mechanical/electrical tune ups/upgrades necessary to get heavens gate to operate reliably would be sufficient and orders of magnitude cheaper than brand new lifts.
    There is no question that they have to do whatever needs to be done to get the current lifts to operate reliably, but beyond that, my priority for capital investment, after the vhquad, would be continued investment in snowmaking and then bringing the valley house lodge into the 21st century. I think with proper maintenance and care they can get another 10-15 years out of heavens gate and north lynx. Castlerock is practically new and the base quads are in their prime.

    About the competition, I assume you mean kton and Stowe. First of all, they are vastly different operations. Corporate owned. They are both much more developed, to a degree rejected by the valley community before the current ownership took over. I mean how many units are in the new lodge at Stowe compared to clay rook and rice brook. The latter is tiny by comparison. I don't know the numbers, but I think that both kton and Stowe have double or triple the skiers visits than sugarbush. So it's really not fair to compare. But if you do, check out alpine zone forums where there were similar complaints about kton and the mgmt responded that they are working on it and they just can't do everything they want right away.
    I think it's unrealistic to ask for all new lifts and like I said before, a good mechanic crew and modernization of the existing heavens gate lift is probably a reasonable allocation of resources.


  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by angler View Post
    So who's fault is it that they can't hire or keep good mechanics?
    We r not talking about fault. We r talking about what the solution is to the lift problems this season.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by angler View Post
    Well, I think they need a new top to bottom lift at ME as the summit lift is a joke. Its very slow for a very short run. At LP I would replace NL, HG, and VD. Not necessarily in that order. If you did that people would tend to ski all areas of the mountain without it taking an inordinate amount of time to get there without over crowding the trails. Again, that's my opinion.
    I would not replace NL and HG. jester has some traffic issues a new lift would make it worse unless you want another triple which would be wistful. NL has a similar situation on birch run unless you mean making the lift extend further down so you can get to it more easily. VD is a good move since all the trails can easily handle more traffic.

  7. #367
    My personal preference is for high-speed detachable chairlifts because of their high capacity (less time in line) and rapid transit times (less time on lift). Additionally newer designs are more reliable (less time on mechanical hold) and more wind resistant than ever (less time on wind hold). Admittedly this is merely a personal preference that some share and some don't, each by their own individual degrees. My preference and all of your various preferences are purely subjective.

    About the only objective thing you can say is that Sugarbush has a relative paucity of the type of lifts that I prefer and a relative abundance of old fixed-grip lifts as compared to its peers, Killington and Stowe and the other big New England areas. This is not a good thing for people who feel the same as I do about lifts. It is probably a fine thing for some other folks. It depends on what you value. There is probably is little profit in challenging people on the matter because their views will be inherently subjective.
    Last edited by Orca; 04-10-2014 at 09:23 PM.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Benski View Post
    I would not replace NL and HG. jester has some traffic issues a new lift would make it worse unless you want another triple which would be wistful. NL has a similar situation on birch run unless you mean making the lift extend further down so you can get to it more easily. VD is a good move since all the trails can easily handle more traffic.
    Agreed. Places like Killington and Stowe are geared towards top-to-bottom lifts, with multiple options available from the summit. The present lift structure at Sugarbush isn't set up this way. Putting a HS quad where HG is now would be devastating to those trails. No mountains I can think of in VT have a mid mountain to summit HS quad. Well, except Mt Ellen that is. Any capacity upgrades to North Lynx would also be devastating. There's only 3 trail options, 2 of those with snowmaking.

    Valley House is the only "major" lift that could handle a capacity increase. I say "major" because I can see the Village chair getting a capacity upgrade. But as for upper mountain lifts... no way. Unless we're talking about a fixed grip quad with Summit Quad-stlye chair spacing.

  9. #369
    I am going to say that Howards continued personal attack of the lift mechanics is way over the top.
    It is clear by his "I may be totally wrong about this but this is my understanding. A lift is a machine which is built into a foundation. The foundational elements are the footings for the lift towers and the wheels. The mechanical elements of a lift can be fixed, upgraded or even replaced. Sensors and electrical systems can be upgraded. It is only when the foundational elements begin to deteriorate that it is beyond repair. Therefore you should measure a lifts life span by how long the footings last." that he has no understanding of lift systems.
    To look at the problem correctly you would need to know what is wrong [many are very old] with the lifts and decide if the funds to correct the problem had been allocated. Read this http://online.wsj.com/article/AP494d...38e160ecc.html
    "Jim Fletcher, a Colorado-based engineering consultant for ski resorts" "Fletcher said most ski lifts were originally designed for a lifespan of 20 to 30 years. He said they're considered "aging equipment" at 20 years and just plain "old" at 25"

    These modern HSQ lifts are like owning an Audi. The first four [10 lift years] are great, next 5 [10 more LY] require a fair amount of work, after that open your wallet and bend over. Not to mention lack of factory replacements a fter a certain amount of time has passed, kinda like Microsoft ending tech support for XP.
    The issues with SB are most likely age related as they spin it empty 7 days a week for a good portion of the summer adding to its wear and tear. looking back at the week plus breakdown in Feb. they brought in Doppelmayr engineers from Quebec who had to redo the operating system to get it going again. And it is still having issues.
    Remember Les? all of the new lifts he put in are going on 20 yo and require lots of maintainance, current ownership and fanboys cannot lay the blame at ASCs feet anymore.
    The HG drive station is worn out, plain and simple, most likely requires a major overhaul. Northridge is a very old, antique like, design, moved, bandaided and most likely very worn out and it had several breakdowns mid season. Sunny D 35 YO and not running the last two weekends so the park rats had to hike or go the long way GM.
    It is going to require a large sum of $$ to get things up to date, lets hope for the best.

    /end ramble, masters highlights now.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    We r not talking about fault. We r talking about what the solution is to the lift problems this season.
    Well you aren't but some on hear are. I heard the details of the HG fiasco the other day. There is no way I sharing that on here.
    Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
    Got two good eyes but we still don’t see!

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orca View Post
    My personal preference is for high-speed detachable chairlifts because of their high capacity (less time in line) and rapid transit times (less time on lift). Additionally newer designs are more reliable (less time on mechanical hold) and more wind resistant than ever (less time on wind hold). Admittedly this is merely a personal preference that some share and some don't, each by their own individual degrees. My preference and all of your various preferences are purely subjective.

    About the only objective thing you can say is that Sugarbush has a relative paucity of the type of lifts that I prefer and a relative abundance of old fixed-grip lifts as compared to its peers, Killington and Stowe and the other big New England areas. This is not a good thing for people who feel the same as I do about lifts. It is probably a fine thing for some other folks. It depends on what you value. There is probably is little profit in challenging people on the matter because their views will be inherently subjective.
    Orca the problem with high speed detachables are that they are highly susceptible to weather. Wind and Ice can shut them down much faster than a fixed grip. I have to agree with the statement that a large increased capacity at much of the areas at this mountain would be a bad thing. VH is the one place that could use an upgrade.
    Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
    Got two good eyes but we still don’t see!

  12. #372

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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Figure View Post
    I am going to say that Howards continued personal attack of the lift mechanics is way over the top.
    It is clear by his "I may be totally wrong about this but this is my understanding. A lift is a machine which is built into a foundation. The foundational elements are the footings for the lift towers and the wheels. The mechanical elements of a lift can be fixed, upgraded or even replaced. Sensors and electrical systems can be upgraded. It is only when the foundational elements begin to deteriorate that it is beyond repair. Therefore you should measure a lifts life span by how long the footings last." that he has no understanding of lift systems.
    To look at the problem correctly you would need to know what is wrong [many are very old] with the lifts and decide if the funds to correct the problem had been allocated. Read this http://online.wsj.com/article/AP494d...38e160ecc.html
    "Jim Fletcher, a Colorado-based engineering consultant for ski resorts" "Fletcher said most ski lifts were originally designed for a lifespan of 20 to 30 years. He said they're considered "aging equipment" at 20 years and just plain "old" at 25"

    These modern HSQ lifts are like owning an Audi. The first four [10 lift years] are great, next 5 [10 more LY] require a fair amount of work, after that open your wallet and bend over. Not to mention lack of factory replacements a fter a certain amount of time has passed, kinda like Microsoft ending tech support for XP.
    The issues with SB are most likely age related as they spin it empty 7 days a week for a good portion of the summer adding to its wear and tear. looking back at the week plus breakdown in Feb. they brought in Doppelmayr engineers from Quebec who had to redo the operating system to get it going again. And it is still having issues.
    Remember Les? all of the new lifts he put in are going on 20 yo and require lots of maintainance, current ownership and fanboys cannot lay the blame at ASCs feet anymore.
    The HG drive station is worn out, plain and simple, most likely requires a major overhaul. Northridge is a very old, antique like, design, moved, bandaided and most likely very worn out and it had several breakdowns mid season. Sunny D 35 YO and not running the last two weekends so the park rats had to hike or go the long way GM.
    It is going to require a large sum of $$ to get things up to date, lets hope for the best.

    /end ramble, masters highlights now.
    Thanks for the article. It was an interesting read.

  13. #373

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    We r not talking about fault. We r talking about what the solution is to the lift problems this season.
    Howie, you're a trial lawyer you have to realize the problem at the mountain goes way beyond lift mechanics. There are real problems here that were self inflicted. At some point in time people need to take responsibility to be able to move forward.

  14. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    I'm sorry if that is how you interpreted my post. It wasn't meant that way (I've been on trial all week so I may be in battle mode) I was seriously asking why u think those lifts at lp need to be replaced with new lifts. Do u think they need more capacity than the current lifts provide? Because if not, I would think that doing whatever kind of mechanical/electrical tune ups/upgrades necessary to get heavens gate to operate reliably would be sufficient and orders of magnitude cheaper than brand new lifts.
    There is no question that they have to do whatever needs to be done to get the current lifts to operate reliably, but beyond that, my priority for capital investment, after the vhquad, would be continued investment in snowmaking and then bringing the valley house lodge into the 21st century. I think with proper maintenance and care they can get another 10-15 years out of heavens gate and north lynx. Castlerock is practically new and the base quads are in their prime.

    About the competition, I assume you mean kton and Stowe. First of all, they are vastly different operations. Corporate owned. They are both much more developed, to a degree rejected by the valley community before the current ownership took over. I mean how many units are in the new lodge at Stowe compared to clay rook and rice brook. The latter is tiny by comparison. I don't know the numbers, but I think that both kton and Stowe have double or triple the skiers visits than sugarbush. So it's really not fair to compare. But if you do, check out alpine zone forums where there were similar complaints about kton and the mgmt responded that they are working on it and they just can't do everything they want right away.
    I think it's unrealistic to ask for all new lifts and like I said before, a good mechanic crew and modernization of the existing heavens gate lift is probably a reasonable allocation of resources.
    Thanks for the clarification sounds like a long week. I wasn't asserting that all the lifts get upgraded at once. I know it's costly to replace a lift. I was responding to what lifts I thought needed to be upgraded and the reasons why. I get Shadyjay's point about Stowe and K being more of a top to bottom centric mountain. If you follow the rest of the thinking and what I think you are saying SB will never be able to upgrade the lifts because they will put to much pressure on the mountain. That just can't be accurate. There has to be a way to find a balance between embracing modern technology compared to riding antiquated lifts. I get the fact that you are ok with the lift system but you have to admit the lifts are old and outdated. If you think about it no matter what lift you take to get to the top of the mountain it's a slow, slow lift that takes forever to get there.
    Last edited by angler; 04-11-2014 at 07:18 AM.

  15. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Orca the problem with high speed detachables are that they are highly susceptible to weather. Wind and Ice can shut them down much faster than a fixed grip. I have to agree with the statement that a large increased capacity at much of the areas at this mountain would be a bad thing. VH is the one place that could use an upgrade.
    With modern technology is that still true?
    Last edited by angler; 04-11-2014 at 08:00 AM.

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