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  1. #301
    I was just trying to bring a little perspective to the lift line situation. I do not like long lines any more than the rest of you. This year has been the worst in quite awhile. The situation with all the breakdowns this season is deplorable, but what do you expect when all the lifts are older than 20 years except two.

    I started skiing SB New Years 83-84, the last season the gondola was there. I got to ski Ripcord and Parachute the first day they were open. I found a trail map from 86-87 and all the lifts at Mt. Ellen were doubles. At SB Sugar Bravo was still a triple and Gate House was a double. I also noticed how little snow making there was at SB. Organgrinder, Jester, Sleepper, Birch Run, Sunrise, Stein's Run, what is now Domino Chute, Murphy's Glade and Birdland did not yet have snow making. However, Mt. Ellen had the same snow making then as it does now. Another interesting tidbit is that there were only 68 trails at the two mountains.

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    I dont have a problem with negative posts. My problem is with you making the same negative posts for 4 months running. That is why I suggested you stop beating a dead horse.

    Like I said before, I too feel the communication from the mtn has been lacking the last few years. However, that doesnt make it right to go on and on endlessly in an insulting fashion.

    personally, my conjecture is that they were very open about the future plans up through and including the building of the schoolhouse/farmhouse. The next big item was rice brook and they had the plans posted up on the wall at the gatehouse. Then the financial crisis hit and rice brook got delayed 3-4 years (totally reasonable). So, I think that experience, getting burned on the timing of rice brook, specifically, and the loss of confidence we all suffered from the financial crisis, caused them to clam up about future plans. so for instance, they arent talking about the valey house lift replacement until all the permits are issued, i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
    I think its a mistake as I've said before, but thats my take on the situation. I think they need to show some confidence about the future to build morale on the team of pass holders and employees. Not everything is going to work out, but everyone with a stake in it, needs to have hope for the future. With hope comes happiness.

    Ok, fair enough. I would agree that there is some truth to what you are saying about my posts. In my defense I do think that I toned them down after the first couple of dozen . For the most part I have only been responding to other posts. Either way I get your point.

    As far as your view on their lack of communication you might be right but it still says something about the attitude. It would be unreasonable for people to be pissed off about the rice book delay considering the financial environment. All they need to do is explain why the delay. So not to communicate about stuff doesn't make sense. I mean shit happens so tell people when you plan to do the VD lift and if things come up say it. When people on this forum say that ownership doesn't have to say anything about what is going on because its a private company is technically right but it isn't right from a human perspective. I look at season pass holders as stake holders in its own unique way. They are loyal customers that commit significant dollars, time and loyalty to the mountain and IMO they deserve better then what is happening at the mountain on many different levels.

    Let me share an example of the attitude that I am speaking about. I have a friend who has been a season pass holder and shareholder at MRG plus a season pass holder at SB for double digit years. He is 68 years old. When he turned 65 he qualified for the senior discount. He received the discount for two years then SB decided to change the age to 70 for the discount. ( I don't agree with the policy but it's not my mountain) He writes directly to ownership to ask why the change in policy and the response is well the demographics are changing, people live longer so thats why they made it 70. They wouldn't even grandfather the people who already were receiving the discount. (how many could that be?) So it just gets taken away. Really who does that from a business perspective or a human perspective. He was offended on many different levels. One could ask, why would you initiate the 20's pass for 299 but take away a pass from loyal pass hold for over 12 years or so thats still paying 700 dollars for his. Not a good way to treat loyalty. So he leaves the mountain goes to another one that still does 65 for seniors speaks badly about the mountain, and would never go back. (I have no dog in this fight as I am not close to being 65 ) The relationship between a season pass holder and the mountain is way more intimate then a typical relationship between a business and a customer. Season pass holders bring their family, friends, call it their mountain, spend lots of time and money above the cost of a pass, are proud of it ect, ect, you get the point. It tends to be a personal relationship and I think the ownership doesn't get that. IMO this attitude is prevalent through out the mountain and bleeds through to the decisions they make concerning the operations of the mountain. This started long before this year IMO. I hope you take this for what it is, observations, not just a negative rant.
    P.S.
    I find this type of attitude insulting.
    Last edited by angler; 04-03-2014 at 08:46 PM.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by angler View Post
    Ok, fair enough. I would agree that there is some truth to what you are saying about my posts. In my defense I do think that I toned them down after the first couple of dozen . For the most part I have only been responding to other posts. Either way I get your point.

    As far as your view on their lack of communication you might be right but it still says something about the attitude. It would be unreasonable for people to be pissed off about the rice book delay considering the financial environment. All they need to do is explain why the delay. So not to communicate about stuff doesn't make sense. I mean shit happens so tell people when you plan to do the VD lift and if things come up say it. When people on this forum say that ownership doesn't have to say anything about what is going on because its a private company is technically right but it isn't right from a human perspective. I look at season pass holders as stake holders in its own unique way. They are loyal customers that commit significant dollars, time and loyalty to the mountain and IMO they deserve better then what is happening at the mountain on many different levels.

    Let me share an example of the attitude that I am speaking about. I have a friend who has been a season pass holder and shareholder at MRG plus a season pass holder at SB for double digit years. He is 68 years old. When he turned 65 he qualified for the senior discount. He received the discount for two years then SB decided to change the age to 70 for the discount. ( I don't agree with the policy but it's not my mountain) He writes directly to ownership to ask why the change in policy and the response is well the demographics are changing, people live longer so thats why they made it 70. They wouldn't even grandfather the people who already were receiving the discount. (how many could that be?) So it just gets taken away. Really who does that from a business perspective or a human perspective. He was offended on many different levels. One could ask, why would you initiate the 20's pass for 299 but take away a pass from loyal pass hold for over 12 years or so thats still paying 700 dollars for his. Not a good way to treat loyalty. So he leaves the mountain goes to another one that still does 65 for seniors speaks badly about the mountain, and would never go back. (I have no dog in this fight as I am not close to being 65 ) The relationship between a season pass holder and the mountain is way more intimate then a typical relationship between a business and a customer. Season pass holders bring their family, friends, call it their mountain, spend lots of time and money above the cost of a pass, are proud of it ect, ect, you get the point. It tends to be a personal relationship and I think the ownership doesn't get that. IMO this attitude is prevalent through out the mountain and bleeds through to the decisions they make concerning the operations of the mountain. This started long before this year IMO. I hope you take this for what it is, observations, not just a negative rant.
    P.S.
    I find this type of attitude insulting.
    I totally agree. Not right.

    I've been a pass holder for 8 seasons with my family. My son also did blazers which I gladly paid for all those years. But he was done with that and after some prodding, ski patrol agreed to start up a young adult patroller program. Friend of my son did it at another mtn. Basically, they are trainees. They help out on the mtn and in the clinics. He has had instruction every weekend day since December. He goes to mt Ellen and works there from about 9 to 3. The program is great and he loved it. when he turns 18 and takes the required outdoor emergency care course, he can be a full patroller. But I was shocked when I had to pay for his pass. Not that it was much money because of his age, but still. There are only 6 kids in the program and they didn't do anything for them, like jackets or anything.


  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Fourwide View Post
    MM4B wrote:

    I'm happy to see that the "Comedy Hour" portion of this thread has now commenced. For how many consecutive years have the snowmaking/lift maintenance topics appeared? Five? Ten? Ownership has zero obligation to respond to chatrooms. I'm happy to receive whatever info he divulges. SB isn't a cooperative.
    I'm glad you're at least adding constructive criticism that is relevant to the topic and you aren't focusing your comments on the posters but the substance itself. Let the Comedy Hour continue. To answer your question though the lift maintenance topics probably started appearing about the same time NR started going down on a consistent basis. Certainly not before then. The snow making ones probably;y about the same time we got had a season where we were left with minimal trails open (Not suggesting CR) compared to local competition at the start of a year and people got to thinking why not us? Just guessing though. Where you looking for exact dates? Would that help you?

    Look at a lot of the join dates of people posting. They match yours. (By the way not that that is a qualifier for having an opinion in either direction). However surely you must remember a different attitude and style of response back in those times. Do you not? Win used to jump in and post (setting precedent for that type of behavior) and we'd post about how awesome he is and how happy we were that he was the owner. Then he'd post some more. Then we'd give him more. It was all Happy Happy Joy Joy. What changed? I don't know. You tell me. Did we all become more bitter and bogged down from too much skiing? Maybe. Snow is a fickle fiend of a drug. It changes people man. One second you're flying down Liftline on a high, blower snow flying in your face. The next you're at a party talking to someone you don't even know in corner of the kitchen for 40 minutes trying to get your fix.

    In any case as I said (and your tone confuses me because you essentially repeat what I say) I don't expect Win to post anything. He doesn't owe us a single thing. However he came on here before and was more than happy to respond and post when we were applauding him. I thought he had the ability to focus on the issues and not make it personal. Admittedly I expected more from him than probably many of us would do and maybe it's not fair, but I was hopeful. And I was disappointed in the response/lack of as a result.

    Keep posting though. I love it. It cracks me up and I need a good smile today as I try and push through my work day before getting in the car for the drive up. I mean even I admit this thread has derailed. God forbid if the list stops for 30 seconds this weekend.

  5. #305

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    I totally agree. Not right.

    I've been a pass holder for 8 seasons with my family. My son also did blazers which I gladly paid for all those years. But he was done with that and after some prodding, ski patrol agreed to start up a young adult patroller program. Friend of my son did it at another mtn. Basically, they are trainees. They help out on the mtn and in the clinics. He has had instruction every weekend day since December. He goes to mt Ellen and works there from about 9 to 3. The program is great and he loved it. when he turns 18 and takes the required outdoor emergency care course, he can be a full patroller. But I was shocked when I had to pay for his pass. Not that it was much money because of his age, but still. There are only 6 kids in the program and they didn't do anything for them, like jackets or anything.
    Seriously, Who does that? Oh I know SB does. (sorry I'm only on step 2 of my 12 step program) Its one thing not to have the money to do something, or have mother nature screw you, but really? They can't get out of their own way, when they do stuff like this (that they can control) it's really saying they couldn't give a S__T. Thats why Im not inclined to give them a get out of jail card for free.

  6. #306
    On a positive post good for you Howie. That's a pretty cool program your kid is in. If he's doing work for the mountain and helping out he deserves some recognition. It's what helps keep people motivated and excited to continue. Maybe since it's the first year (I'm guessing form your post) they didn't have a plan for it and hopefully they will take some feedback and get it together next year for him.

  7. #307
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    SV, the 70's??? How old do you think I am? LOL My first year skiing the Bush was 83. The gondola was in it's last throws and the high speed era was starting up. I heard tha the 70's had both some huge snow years but also some awful snow years.

    Quote Originally Posted by southvillager View Post
    For sure...back in the '70s, before detachable quads, the lines were crazy long. If you got 10 lift rides in a day, you were doing great, and probably skiing mid week. On a busy Saturday, getting only 7 or 8 runs in was not unusual. Most lifts were doubles, some triples, and lots of surface lifts like Pomas (discs), t-bars, or j-bars for short ascents. As an example, North Lynx was a Poma surface lift, it was awesome. Once you got up there, you had the place to yourself, like Castlerock. Some of the bigger resorts has a gondola, like Sugarbush, Stowe, etc., but they were slow, too. The lines were long, the uphill rides were slow, and the skiing was slower.

    Then in the eighties, all the resorts put up detachable quads, and built lifts that climbed 2/3 of the mountain instead of top to bottom. The difference in uphill capacity of a fixed double and a detachable quad is astounding. Double the seats, double the chairs, double the speed.
    Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
    Got two good eyes but we still don’t see!

  8. #308
    "Keep posting though. I love it. It cracks me up and I need a good smile today as I try and push through my work day before getting in the car for the drive up. I mean even I admit this thread has derailed. God forbid if the list stops for 30 seconds this weekend."

    Will do! My point is that your premise can't be substantiated. The back and forth with Win over the years is a mix of neutral discussion, praise and criticism. Unlike you, my impression is that I've seen more discussion and criticism than praise. Regardless, Win has other owners and a board to whom he's responsible. Passholders and owners do have a right to more info., and there are different and established opportunities for that. I don't think it's fair or realistic to expect him to go point-by-point with forum dwellers. We get a good deal of info from him here, and we shouldn't be overly demanding.

    I'm a Win fan, and I believe Angler and others often unnecessarily repeat their criticisms but I do believe he owes Angler an apology (perhaps better, a beer!). We need to keep things civil on this amusing board.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by MntMan4Bush View Post
    On a positive post good for you Howie. That's a pretty cool program your kid is in. If he's doing work for the mountain and helping out he deserves some recognition. It's what helps keep people motivated and excited to continue. Maybe since it's the first year (I'm guessing form your post) they didn't have a plan for it and hopefully they will take some feedback and get it together next year for him.
    It was the first year and they were definitely playing it by ear. I'm totally cool with that. His friend who did it at hunter got a free pass from them.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Fourwide View Post
    "Keep posting though. I love it. It cracks me up and I need a good smile today as I try and push through my work day before getting in the car for the drive up. I mean even I admit this thread has derailed. God forbid if the list stops for 30 seconds this weekend."

    Will do! My point is that your premise can't be substantiated. The back and forth with Win over the years is a mix of neutral discussion, praise and criticism. Unlike you, my impression is that I've seen more discussion and criticism than praise. Regardless, Win has other owners and a board to whom he's responsible. Passholders and owners do have a right to more info., and there are different and established opportunities for that. I don't think it's fair or realistic to expect him to go point-by-point with forum dwellers. We get a good deal of info from him here, and we shouldn't be overly demanding.

    I'm a Win fan, and I believe Angler and others often unnecessarily repeat their criticisms but I do believe he owes Angler an apology (perhaps better, a beer!). We need to keep things civil on this amusing board.
    I dont expect Win to come on here and go point for point with anyone. who has time for that anyway. what I do expect from the way things were back a few years ago, is some dissemination of information as to where they are going with things.

  11. #311
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    I agree with you Fourwide. Keep things civil on the board. I also think that criticism is healthy. For the record, I was one of the biggest Win fans when I moved here from Sunday River. The atmosphere was electric with the development of the new base area. But with time I have been disappointed with many of the decision that have been made. Granted that the decision were probably made by committee, but you always think that everything goes through Win.

    I know and have many friends who work for the mountain. I bet most on here do. So when I hear the tails of what these people go through, the hiring's, the firings, the struggles to get it done with limited budgets, the goals set forth, it makes me sad. I guess my expectations were way too high. And now it seems that some of these decisions are effecting my experience. That is why I feel I need to voice an opinion. Hey it's a hard business but I really think that some of the real important things have been overlooked or undervalued. It is a ski area. The most important thing is the lifts and the snow quality. That is what makes a good area great. If people are standing in line and skiing challenging conditions then that is a minus in the large scheme of things.
    Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
    Got two good eyes but we still don’t see!

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I agree with you Fourwide. Keep things civil on the board. I also think that criticism is healthy. For the record, I was one of the biggest Win fans when I moved here from Sunday River. The atmosphere was electric with the development of the new base area. But with time I have been disappointed with many of the decision that have been made. Granted that the decision were probably made by committee, but you always think that everything goes through Win.

    I know and have many friends who work for the mountain. I bet most on here do. So when I hear the tails of what these people go through, the hiring's, the firings, the struggles to get it done with limited budgets, the goals set forth, it makes me sad. I guess my expectations were way too high. And now it seems that some of these decisions are effecting my experience. That is why I feel I need to voice an opinion. Hey it's a hard business but I really think that some of the real important things have been overlooked or undervalued. It is a ski area. The most important thing is the lifts and the snow quality. That is what makes a good area great. If people are standing in line and skiing challenging conditions then that is a minus in the large scheme of things.
    I like sports analogies. Teams go through slumps. theyre not as good as they look when theyre winning, nor as bad as they look when theyre losing. I think theyre in a slump. Theyve made some mistakes and hit some bad luck, but they're a good team and theyll bounce back. I believe most importantly, that SV is trying to do the right things. They may not always, but they arent trying to suck the operation for cash or dump it in a sale.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Fourwide View Post
    "Keep posting though. I love it. It cracks me up and I need a good smile today as I try and push through my work day before getting in the car for the drive up. I mean even I admit this thread has derailed. God forbid if the list stops for 30 seconds this weekend."

    Will do!
    I wasn't being sarcastic. This all gives me amusement at work. Perhaps my employer would see it otherwise

    In any case I actually agree with everything you say, though I'm not sure your exact point about my premise being unsubstantiated though after typing such long posts I often forget what my premise was to begin with. In any case I don't expect Win to answer all questions here. If I was him I wouldn't.

    What I'm saying is what I'd like to see. I even admit that some of it is due to my nerdish curiosity about number and data points as opposed to anything that adds value to the community. Call it a wish list. Some of it others might like to see. I don't know. I just know what I'd like to see. I don't actually require (like if I was a shareholder) or expect (like I was overly optimistic) to get all the answers, but some like he used to do would be nice.

    As for the date of the VD I really could care less unless the lift goes down permanently. Then I care. It's nice to know it's on the radar. Maybe a ballpark (next 3 years) would be good to hear. Throw in some rough dates on the high level business plan and I'm a happy guy, but if it doesn't come I'll still be on the slopes. Just with less things in my head to dream about. It will just be Rumble on a powder day, movie theater size boxes of snowcaps and Megan Fox in my head along with some vague distant memories of me being married, having a kid and a job or some such thing.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by MntMan4Bush View Post
    I wasn't being sarcastic. This all gives me amusement at work. Perhaps my employer would see it otherwise

    In any case I actually agree with everything you say, though I'm not sure your exact point about my premise being unsubstantiated though after typing such long posts I often forget what my premise was to begin with. In any case I don't expect Win to answer all questions here. If I was him I wouldn't.

    What I'm saying is what I'd like to see. I even admit that some of it is due to my nerdish curiosity about number and data points as opposed to anything that adds value to the community. Call it a wish list. Some of it others might like to see. I don't know. I just know what I'd like to see. I don't actually require (like if I was a shareholder) or expect (like I was overly optimistic) to get all the answers, but some like he used to do would be nice.

    As for the date of the VD I really could care less unless the lift goes down permanently. Then I care. It's nice to know it's on the radar. Maybe a ballpark (next 3 years) would be good to hear. Throw in some rough dates on the high level business plan and I'm a happy guy, but if it doesn't come I'll still be on the slopes. Just with less things in my head to dream about. It will just be Rumble on a powder day, movie theater size boxes of snowcaps and Megan Fox in my head along with some vague distant memories of me being married, having a kid and a job or some such thing.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were being sarcastic. I think ownership has an obligation to respond to criticism raised by any customer. This forum is a good place to gather ideas, and I'd imagine that some of the ideas discussed on this board are taken up by ownership. However, this isn't the place to expect ownership reaction. Passholders can and should communicate directly with ownership and can fairly expect detailed answers at the meetings dedicated to that purpose. Ownership has recently provided its lift maintenance plan for next season. I believe they've also promised more info on snowmaking. I'd guess that formal communication (even an email) from a passholder might be read to the board. I'm sure forum content is not.

  15. #315

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    It would be nice to get one weekend this year where its 60 and sunny! Love spring skiing when its like that!

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