No snowmaking really?

[Benski]

I think with all the low E guns the often max out on water and i don't think they shut off snow making because of power more than a couple days on average a year.

[flakeydog]

It is an agreement with the power company. When electricity is in high demand and the grid is under stress, the powers that be say electricity to power homes, hospitals etc is more important than blasting snow in sub-zero temps. Priorities i guess, but nothing new about this practice. Prevents GMP from havong to go buy extra power at premium rates or worst case, a shortage (ie blackout).

[Ride Delaware ?]

My understanding is that GMP doesn't allow bulk purchase of power. They have it at the going rate. The power company still has to supply power if the company wants to use it. However, the company is informed that during X hours they will be increasing the price of electric from X kWh to 2X kWh. If the company wishes to pay that amount, they can continue to operate. Whether that is due to infrastructure inadequacies or because the company wants to make more $, who knows.

As for Sugarloaf, they do buy their power in bulk. In fact, my understanding is that Sunday River and Sugarloaf buy their electric together. The two mountains share a part time energy efficiency employee that specifically concentrates on snowmaking efficiency and when best to use or sell their energy. Those two mountains make snow at the cheap rate and often sell their energy back to the electric company at much higher demand times. They make a good chunk of change off of this practice.

[skidmarks]

Skied North today, conditions were poor to say the least.
Killington must get their power from a different source because when I was there on Wednesday they had a big snow-making push on.
The skiing at Killington was great, what a stark contrast from Sugarbush.
The 80's called and wants it's snowmaking back....

[gostan]

My understanding is that GMP doesn't allow bulk purchase of power. They have it at the going rate. The power company still has to supply power if the company wants to use it. However, the company is informed that during X hours they will be increasing the price of electric from X kWh to 2X kWh. If the company wishes to pay that amount, they can continue to operate. Whether that is due to infrastructure inadequacies or because the company wants to make more $, who knows.

As for Sugarloaf, they do buy their power in bulk. In fact, my understanding is that Sunday River and Sugarloaf buy their electric together. The two mountains share a part time energy efficiency employee that specifically concentrates on snowmaking efficiency and when best to use or sell their energy. Those two mountains make snow at the cheap rate and often sell their energy back to the electric company at much higher demand times. They make a good chunk of change off of this practice.

This may or may not be correct, but snowmaking complaints at Sugarloaf from their core skiers are real, just as they are at Sugarbush and other areas
http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/v...=6365&start=15

The Sugarloaf skiers feel,like second class citizens to Sunday River. My guess is that without an abundance of natural snow, that all skiers at all mountains will complain about snowmaking, and that even includes mountains that have far superior snow making facilities/systems than sugarbush.

[Ride Delaware ?]

This may or may not be correct, but snowmaking complaints at Sugarloaf from their core skiers are real, just as they are at Sugarbush and other areas
http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/v...=6365&start=15

The Sugarloaf skiers feel,like second class citizens to Sunday River. My guess is that without an abundance of natural snow, that all skiers at all mountains will complain about snowmaking, and that even includes mountains that have far superior snow making facilities/systems than sugarbush.

For better or worse, Sugarloaf has always been treated like a second class citizen to SR. SR and Loon are Boyne's Northeast cash cows. If the rumors are true, one of the reasons SR was one of the last ASC resorts to sell, other than it being Otten's pride a joy, was that they were requiring SR be sold with SL because the SL financials and skier visits would have made it tough to sell as a solo resort. If you have ever been to SL, you know it's in the middle of nowhere and really isn't very accessible to any major population centers. The complaints are probably true, but it's tough to justify sinking money into the place when SR makes the big bucks.

[Hawk]

This is not correct. See prior snowmaking discussions.

Well I guess you cant blame people for not going back and seeing our past 20 or so discussions on snowmaking.
Sorry Howie this is correct. They do have air issues for the size and scale of the operation they have here. The pipes are old and leaky and the compressor plant is in need of upgrade. I mean you only have to look at the water and frozen mud that they sometimes blow out of the guns to understand that it is an air issue. Those new guns do use less air but if they have no air they still blow water. It's the air that makes the water droplets small enough to freeze. They have plenty of water.

Stan hits it on the button. Sugarbush buys bulk power early at a discount. When it is used up they have to pay the going rate. When demand goes up during peak times like when it is hot or very cold the rates go up. Basic Supply and demand. So they would have to pay much more to blow snow during this cold snap. This seems to be a financial thing. Not a water thing, not the power company saying they do not have enough power. That is my 2 cents from talking to people around the area.

I remember someone saying a while back that when mother nature turns her back on us, the need for snowmaking will become key. What DR is saying about SL is 100% true and shows another example of a faithful set of devoted skiers voicing displeasure when something could be done. It's another example of what is most important when running a ski operation. The product you ski on.

[gostan]

Whether or not there is an upfront bulk discount purchase or not, remember that electricity charges are based upon the cost of the electricity and the Demand charges. And it is the Demand charges that can blow the electricity charges up dramatically.


http://www.greenmountainpower.com/cu...nding-charges/


http://www.greenmountainpower.com/up...sGMPLegacy.pdf

I am sure if I were able to be up skiing (I might finally get released for some easy skiing the weekend of February 7th) that I would want snowmaking to be in play, but if there is a frozen ice base on the snowmaking trails,along with extremely windy conditions, isn't it likely that the snow made from the snow making system would just get blown into the woods on the sides of the trails. Maybe this along with higher costs and possible issues with the equipment due to the cold, is why it makes business sense for management to delay additional snow making for now.

And we know that there is always a big push for additional snow making prior to February school vacation week, and then the switch is usually turned off.

[arc1]

This is not correct. See prior snowmaking discussions.

What? When ASC operated the place they had a farm of rented generators in the maintenance lot at the bottom of Bravo. Its fact, and they made a whole lot more snow then. The good news is that we have a mightier snow making punch than at least one hill, Mad River.

[angler]

What? When ASC operated the place they had a farm of rented generators in the maintenance lot at the bottom of Bravo. Its fact, and they made a whole lot more snow then. The good news is that we have a mightier snow making punch than at least one hill, Mad River.

Anyone who has endured both sets of owners knows that is true. The snow making on this mountain for who they think they are is a joke. Not only the lack of snow making but the quality as well. Lets not even get into the lift situation. Who thinks its a good idea to take a part from north ridge chair right before xmas to try and fix heavens gate so the people on north can't ride the best lift on that side really? That is bush league at best. This mountain needs ownership that cares about the end product and is willing to put the type of money it takes to run a first class mountain. If you don't want to do that , stop selling 60,000 quad passes take the pressure of the mountain and charge smugg prices. Very disappointing situation going on at this mountain.

[Benski]

Anyone who has endured both sets of owners knows that is true. The snow making on this mountain for who they think they are is a joke. Not only the lack of snow making but the quality as well. Lets not even get into the lift situation. Who thinks its a good idea to take a part from north ridge chair right before xmas to try and fix heavens gate so the people on north can't ride the best lift on that side really? That is bush league at best. This mountain needs ownership that cares about the end product and is willing to put the type of money it takes to run a first class mountain. If you don't want to do that , stop selling 60,000 quad passes take the pressure of the mountain and charge smugg prices. Very disappointing situation going on at this mountain.

They were in the unfortunate situation of having to get a part on xmass eve which does not leave mane options.

[angler]

Understood, but they continued to charge full price at North. Not very fair to those paying guests if you ask me. I also understand that they knew there might be a problem with Heavens Gate in Aug but thought they might be able to get one more year out of it. Either way its hard to dispute how far down this mountain has gone in the past years.

[southvillager]

Minor clarification. I think ASC was renting big 1300CFM diesel air compressors. These machines are bigger than a full size van, and have large Cat diesel engines. I used to be in the compressor rental business in the '80s, and most of the mountains would rent a fleet of these for 3-4 months. Then they switch over to in house electric compressors to maintain for the rest of the season. I'm not sure if this is still standard practice, but I personally did business with Wildcat, King Pine, Crotched, Whaleback, Waterville...most all of them rented from us or the competition. My co-worker had Killington, Okemo, Stowe, maybe others. We had a full time mechanic rotating from resort to resort for the winter to maintain them. I know some resorts bought stationary diesel compressors to deal with the insecurity of renting. The main benefit is that diesel gets you off the grid.

http://www.sullair.com/americas/en/p.../1300-1600-cfm

I do find it frustrating that the little local 200' hill near me in Mass has far superior snow making and grooming (and therefore conditions) than Sugarbush.

[shadyjay]

Alright, folks.... I understand the weather lately and that we have nothing else better to talk about than snowmaking, but a few comments:

* The cold temps we've had this year, we've been able to push out a lot more snow than ever before. And with the new tower guns and other low e guns, we've maxed on water before air on several occasions.
* All of our snowmaking trails are currently OPEN. That represents, some 60-70% of terrain.
* If you were to add snowmaking on the mountain, where would it be? Castlerock? Paradise? Lower FIS? Village Run?
* Quality of snowmaking? This I have to totally disagree. I've had numerous compliments this season from not just fellow employees but from guests that the snowmaking has been great. When temps have been cold
as they have, the snow we've made has been incredibly dry. Almost too dry. Some areas we need wetter snow in order to stick to the trails. When its -15, you really can't make wet snow.
* Sure, there's a hard base out there. Not going to disagree. We had some challenging weather to deal with this year. How we went from the polar vortex one day, to 45 deg and rain the next, then back in the
vortex the day after is beyond me.
* Air is not the issue when it's this cold. Sure, more air capacity would help early season but the low e guns on OG enable us to run that trail, plus another.
* Not sure about the lift situation. I do know for a fact it was frustrating early season when HG was down and we had to hike up Jester in order to make snow on it. Sure, Jester's not that steep, until you have to hike
up it.
* Its not like we've had a substantial warmup in the past week or so where we absolutely need to make snow during the bitter cold periods right now. Since our plan is to make snow on spring trails, we can wait until
the "price is right". Again, all of our snowmaking trails ARE open, plus some natural trails too.
* We are back at it tonight making snow.
* February is only a week away, and with it will come storms, that will hopefully put all these issues to rest.

Also keep in mind, how many trails would we have open right now if not for us snowmakers? My guess would be a number substantially lower than 75.

[Hawk]

Jay, no one is saying that you guys don't work hard and do your job as you are directed. Snowmaking is hard work and I am sure you take pride int it. But with all due respect, you work for the mountain and you have only made snow at Sugarbush. Your perspecive is very narrow. Lots of people like me have both worked elsewhere and have seen really good operations. I have witnessed and experienced snowmaking at many resorts and what Sugarbush does for quantity and quality doesn't even come close. What people are mad about is that Sugarbush doesn't cirlcle back and hit trails again and agian as needed. Basically they can't because it cost to much. Much of the cost problem is the system it self. I am not going to comment any further but I am sure that many will disagree with many of your points. Sorry.

Alright, folks.... I understand the weather lately and that we have nothing else better to talk about than snowmaking, but a few comments:

* The cold temps we've had this year, we've been able to push out a lot more snow than ever before. And with the new tower guns and other low e guns, we've maxed on water before air on several occasions.
* All of our snowmaking trails are currently OPEN. That represents, some 60-70% of terrain.
* If you were to add snowmaking on the mountain, where would it be? Castlerock? Paradise? Lower FIS? Village Run?
* Quality of snowmaking? This I have to totally disagree. I've had numerous compliments this season from not just fellow employees but from guests that the snowmaking has been great. When temps have been cold
as they have, the snow we've made has been incredibly dry. Almost too dry. Some areas we need wetter snow in order to stick to the trails. When its -15, you really can't make wet snow.
* Sure, there's a hard base out there. Not going to disagree. We had some challenging weather to deal with this year. How we went from the polar vortex one day, to 45 deg and rain the next, then back in the
vortex the day after is beyond me.
* Air is not the issue when it's this cold. Sure, more air capacity would help early season but the low e guns on OG enable us to run that trail, plus another.
* Not sure about the lift situation. I do know for a fact it was frustrating early season when HG was down and we had to hike up Jester in order to make snow on it. Sure, Jester's not that steep, until you have to hike
up it.
* Its not like we've had a substantial warmup in the past week or so where we absolutely need to make snow during the bitter cold periods right now. Since our plan is to make snow on spring trails, we can wait until
the "price is right". Again, all of our snowmaking trails ARE open, plus some natural trails too.
* We are back at it tonight making snow.
* February is only a week away, and with it will come storms, that will hopefully put all these issues to rest.

Also keep in mind, how many trails would we have open right now if not for us snowmakers? My guess would be a number substantially lower than 75.