Wunderbar

[Hawk]

Ya, that is a great idea. We can also increase the vertical like Sugaloaf did when they installed that chair down to the condos. Wow we might even reach 3000' with that. JK obviously.
I do like the idea of being able to sk down but South Village is a huge obsticle I think.

[ThinkSno]

This is just great. So what would you suggest Thinksno? Turn people away? I hate the crowds also but it is a business. You need bodies to have a business grow and make money. I am not keen on the real estate plan at Sugarbush but it is what it is and I am willing to let that take it's course if it means that later they will upgrade lifts and snowmakeing. But this "not at my resort" kind of attitude is absure. Let me take a guess, you moved to Warren from NY or CT?

I wasn't suggesting anything, just decrying possible deforestation in the name of "progress." But since you mention it, there are some successful ski areas which do limit the number of tickets sold per day to enhance the skier experience. Deer Park out west and Wachusett in MA come to mind-- and neither of these is hurting for business. If the lot does have to be built, I do like the idea of giving it lift access-- just like Sugarloaf, as someone suggested. A ski run down to it would also be great. At least this way it would give Sugarbush more than just another big parking lot.

To answer your bizarre question, I did not move to Warren from NY or CT. I've been in the MRV for over 25 years, and only want to see whats best for the area and the valley.

[HowieT2]

Unfortunately, nowadays, growing that business is just as much skiing related as it is to growing the bed base and the related amenities. I don't know to what degree, but to a certain degree, growth at Sugarbush and in town Waitsfield is also linked. I do think that it can be overdeveloped, but I don't think that plan is there yet. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I think the current development is in a decent area. It isn't a whole new area that has to be clear cut and have the forest destroyed. It's basically utilizing already cleared and semi developed land. I like it, but I know everyone has a different opinion.

As to the new parking lot, I think the space is necessary, but I don't know what type of development to that lot is necessary.

the rice brook is built on what was wasteland, so I dont know how anyone could possibly complain about it. and its not like it's a big development.

If the warren house is used for a connection to the 22 acre lot, it would do a lot to relieve traffic on the access road even without actually adding much to parking capacity.

also, there were more cars than skiers at mellon this weekend. plenty of families there to watch the kids race.

fwiw-had a lawyer in my office come to me yesterday thinking about taking his kids for easter vacation to jay. He is not a skier at all. the water park is a huge attraction to the mass market.

[Hawk]

Not a bizzare Question. You were not born in Warren Right? Where did you come from?

This is where I am coming from. I just got into an argument with a friend(orriginally from NY). He lived in the city for years and then moved up to Fayston and built a house many years back. He is now the biggest pita about developement and people in the valley. His feeling is that the Valley towns should stop all developement so that they can maintain the beauty. I have a huge problem with this. This is the USA right, and everybody has freedom. So why should my right to move up there and build be denied by local govenment? This is what I plan to do some day. So his feeling is that I've got mine, so screw you. That goes up my A$$ sideways. Everybody has the right to fulfill their dreams, even resort developers.

So that is my perspective. Sorry to come off like that.

Steve

[HowieT2]

I also have a problem with that. I don't have any problem with development, but I do have a problem with unorganized build anywhere willy nilly development. Especially in areas of natural forest, I do think it should be more regulated, and developed in an environmentally conscientious way, but not outright banned. That's one reason the Rice Brook development doesn't at all bother me. It is built in an area that is already open, will keep roughly the same amount of parking, and molds almost seamlessly with the base redevelopment project. They seem to be aesthetically pleasing and built of decent construction. When all built out, after phase E is done (if and when they get there), with the retail and residential done, it will add some much needed amenities and an extra bed base to help with this growth.

It has taken the better part of 7-8 years for Win and company to take care of the deferred maintenance and upgrade the base area. I am sure they would like to get some of that money back, and they still owe EB-5 investors. I think they have planned and executed this well. Hopefully it leads to on mountain upgrades when it nears completion.

I dont know where the idea came from that there is proposed building on pristine land??

Hawk-just because your friend is a nimby development opponent and was formerly from NY, does not mean that everyone from NY is that way. but I assume you know that.

speaking of EB-5, need to resolve an argument. I was talking about this with a friend, he maintained that the eb-5 investments are interest free loans. I disagreed, arguing that eb-5 simply rewards a foreign investor with a visa, but the terms of the investment are up to the parties and so unlikely to be interest free.

[Hawk]

Hawk-just because your friend is a nimby development opponent and was formerly from NY, does not mean that everyone from NY is that way. but I assume you know that.
.

Well at least in your case Howie.

[HowieT2]

Well at least in your case Howie.

well, i'm originally from jersey so....

[southvillager]

speaking of EB-5, need to resolve an argument. I was talking about this with a friend, he maintained that the eb-5 investments are interest free loans. I disagreed, arguing that eb-5 simply rewards a foreign investor with a visa, but the terms of the investment are up to the parties and so unlikely to be interest free.

An EB-5 investment is supposed to be an equity investment, not a loan. Buying a share in the project or company. However, there can be a workaround where the investors invest in a fund/company which then makes the loan at fixed rates to fund the project. Either way, the investor is in it for both the visa and the $$, I assume the interest rate is up to the individuals.

[Tin Woodsman]

An EB-5 investment is supposed to be an equity investment, not a loan. Buying a share in the project or company. However, there can be a workaround where the investors invest in a fund/company which then makes the loan at fixed rates to fund the project. Either way, the investor is in it for both the visa and the $$, I assume the interest rate is up to the individuals.

Correct. This is why Win continually refers to the EB-5 investments as being "at risk". If the investments area success, the EB-5 equity holders get some return on their investment. If not, they still get a visa. If it were debt, they'd be much more likely to get their money back given how finance/regulations work (much more complicated than that but should suffice for the purposes of this discussion).

Regardless, the fact that Win is even talking about the need (and specific plans!) to add more parking is a good thing, not just for SB for for the entire MRV. For better or for worse, the mountain's success is the Valley's success. More visitors, more employees and more dollars in town.

Now if we could only start shifting the mix of investmnt back up onto the mtn instead of on base area real estate. Then we'd have something. Imagine how much buzz some sort of major terrain enhancement would garner with the burgeoning 420's crowd. Or a major snowmaking investment with the families they are targetting to buy real estate. Strike while the iron is hot!

[Hawk]

Absolutely! I like it. Much more energy.

[southvillager]

Has the 4 20s crowd been obvious this season?

I think so. This is only anecdotal, but I have met quite a few on the lifts, and I see groups of people in their 20s in the Wonderbar. Still mostly an older crowd (like me) in there, but better than a few years ago.

I spoke with one young guy last weekend that had a 420 pass. He rented a condo for the season with his brother and some friends. He said the 420 pass was the reason he did it. I asked him where his group hangs out apres, or at night. He said they don't really go out, they have no money for it. When I was that age, and broke, I would hit Happy Hours. Or when in the valley I would stop for the free soup at the Bluetooth. We would get pitchers of beer to save cash, but we would go out. I don't see those options anymore.

[othripper]

Yeah, sunday night 99 cent dinners at the Tooth!! then dimeys at Gags!!! Yeah bring those back! oh wait, gags and the tooth are gone, just like the snow......

[SkiVideoGuy]

Does anyone think that the goal of selling $$$ units to upscale families and the 20 somethings goals are conflicting? That's 2 completely different markets. Saw some 20 somethings ripping it up at Mt. Ellen on Thursday carrying Nalgene bottles of wine or wine coolers. They were cursing up a storm and really ripping down some blues and when they stopped, drinking what was in the bottles. I have no real problem with that until they come over a rise and 9 year old Suzie is snowplowing down some terrain she's not really ready for but daddy wants her to go down and she gets creamed.

If I were marketing to 20 somethings, and it's a warm March day, there would be music playing at the lift loading stations, music at the Glen House and Allan's Lodges and maybe a band out on the CRP patio. Earlier discussions about kegs at various locations and maybe an outdoor grill at the Glen House and Allans. When I did hear music, it was 70's or 80's music. Probably not what they wanna hear.

If I were marketing to families with $$$ I might have some roving instructors riding lifts and taking runs with random families who look like they might benefit from some quick tips, might have more sherpa's carrying stuff up the steps or up to the Valley House. More tour guides. Tuning clinic at night for daddy who has jr in lessons. Maybe some sampling of food from a bunch of the local restaurants mid-week.

2 very different groups. Can they co-exist, probably but just something that popped into my head while watching people on Thursday at North. Which was fantastic by the way. 8-10" and it kept filling in all day. Nice and light.

[gostan]

Yeah, sunday night 99 cent dinners at the Tooth!! then dimeys at Gags!!! Yeah bring those back! oh wait, gags and the tooth are gone, just like the snow......

Nice snow out there today with more on the horizon.

[win]

I think it is safe to say that all families with $$$ were once 20!