SB Snowmaking has begun?

[win]

This is not a quick answer or necessarily an easy answer. Skier visits have increased since we purchased Sugarbush after declining for a number of years in the finals ASC years. And summer visits have increased significantly. Last year we had 30 of our own weddings and others like The Skinner Barn, Lareau Farm, Round Barn etc had successful wedding seasons too. The loss of the horse show over a decade ago was a huge blow to the valley and clearly impacted Valley businesses. Some businesses like Chez Henri has been around for nearly 50 years. They operate only in the winter and that seems like a good strategy for them. The Common Man in on its fourth ownership since opening in the Masacara Mountain days and each owner has been able to run it successfully. They continue to provide good food and service. The Pitcher Inn opened nearly fifteen years ago and has been successful. The new owners of the Den seem to be doing well. Claudia at The Big Picture has been very creative in what she has created there. I think the new Peasant restaurant on Bridge Street will be a success. Lili and I have eaten there and it was great. And, The Mint is back after the being closed by Irene. Some restaurants have not succeeded for a variety of reasons. Some because owners chose a different lifestyle and some because the quality of the experience deteriorated and they lost the customer base. Strategically at Sugarbush we do not want to be everything, and we want to support the entire Valley and see all businesses do well. All lodges and restaurants are listed on our website, and we like our guests to experience what the Valley offers. Our new Real Estate development when complete will link our new base village with the original Sugarbush Village and with that ease of flow back and forth all year around and more beds on the mountain we think that others will see business opportunity in what used to be a very vibrant village in the early days of Sugarbush.

[HowieT2]

Well after some quick Googling, it seems like Sugarbush Skier Visits are roughly the same as Stowe Skier Visits, and there are many, many more businesses in Stowe. And Stowe also does not offer much early skiing. So my theory is dead wrong. Maybe I have it backwards, maybe there isn't enough critical mass of touristy businesses in the Valley to attract visitors to sustain other touristy businesses. Like a mall without enough tenants, the Valley hospitality businesses suffer from a lack of traffic overall.

No matter how you slice it, the Valley restaurants and inns are in tough shape. I mentioned the Whitehorse and the old Egan's as sitting vacant, but there are also many other inns for sale. I guess I'm just a worrier, but I would like the Valley to be a bit more successful.

I'm just guessing but maybe stowes demographic has more disposable income??? Or maybe they get more non skier visits?
Are there skier visits really the same?
I think the businesses that failed had their own individual issues. I know Egans had issues after changing chefs. Dont know about the warren house in the access road since I never went there, which says something in and of itself. I was jonesing for Mexican and excited about Miguel's but it was not good and way overpriced.

[gostan]

As year round destinations Stowe just offers many more options than MRV does. In fact, I would bet that Stowe is as busy or busier in the summer as it is in the summer. The paved bike/rollerblading/walking/running trail from Topnotch to the town is a fabulous draw for families. Sunday concerts at Trapp and a real (for VT) town with much more shopping than there is in MRV, etc., are all something to consider when deciding where to spend $$$ & recreation time. Increased biz to the valley from weddings is definitely helpful to all businesses on the valley, but until there is more to draw more folks other than wedding guests to the valley year round (as there is at Stowe), then existing businesses will continue to struggle. I sense that the combination of the capital investment required to start or purchase a restaurant or retail operation, along with the resulting tax bills, along with such a short limited season, all make the financial equation and the necessary commitment in MRV more than a simple challenge. More power to those that persevere. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the ambience here, but there was definitely some compelling reasons why I chose to spend a lot of time @ Stowe years ago.

[HowieT2]

As year round destinations Stowe just offers many more options than MRV does. In fact, I would bet that Stowe is as busy or busier in the summer as it is in the summer. The paved bike/rollerblading/walking/running trail from Topnotch to the town is a fabulous draw for families. Sunday concerts at Trapp and a real (for VT) town with much more shopping than there is in MRV, etc., are all something to consider when deciding where to spend $$$ & recreation time. Increased biz to the valley from weddings is definitely helpful to all businesses on the valley, but until there is more to draw more folks other than wedding guests to the valley year round (as there is at Stowe), then existing businesses will continue to struggle. I sense that the combination of the capital investment required to start or purchase a restaurant or retail operation, along with the resulting tax bills, along with such a short limited season, all make the financial equation and the necessary commitment in MRV more than a simple challenge. More power to those that persevere. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the ambience here, but there was definitely some compelling reasons why I chose to spend a lot of time @ Stowe years ago.

Agreed. The rec path is a huge draw. the mad river path needs to be completed. I would argue that it's so important, the town should take the land by imminent domain from those private landowners who won't grant an easement. I realize that's a little harsh, but the mad river is an awesome summer attraction and needs to be accesible.

[Jacksun]

Surprised no one mentioned the bad economy over the past few years. Certainly while skiers probably make up a more affluent crowd, even they've been affected. So it might mean fewer meals out, more cooking in, fewer purchases at MRV shops, more back home at discount stores etc.

Aside from that, the very things that my family loves about MRV I think negatively impact it as a big economic mecca: MRV is the anti-Killington and anti-Stowe - no ugly wide business oriented access road, no wealth oriented see-and-be-seen show off culture. Not being those things is one of the reasons why we love MRV and purchased a vacation home in it (of course the best skiing in the Northeast may have had something to do with it).

On the other hand, what Stowe has, which MRV lacks, is a true walkable village center, with lots of stores and restaurants. Warren Village, while quaint, is tiny, with few businesses to attract people. Irasville is spread out along Rt. 100 and not very walkable. Waitsfield proper is closer to the ideal, but does not have a critical mass of shops and frankly does not have the New Englandy ambiance of Stow. I believe that a nice commercial center creates foor traffic and which I think generates more traffic. For these reasons I think it's got to be hard for a new business to establish itself and build a steady customer base.

Thing is, I'm not advocating massive MRV growth, as I said, the way it is is a huge draw for me. Others may feel differently. I do wish some of the empty businesses would return - Warren House, Egan's, the old Tex Mex place across from Bridges on the Access Road (can't remember the name). I think there could be a nice balance in MRV of more businesses without it turning into K or S.

One last comment: if a new business or restaurant is going to open, then be good! We were excited when Miguel's replaced the Phoenix (although sorry to lose the Phoenix), especially having eaten and enjoyed the Stowe restaurant many times in the past. Well, it was beyond awful, bad food, horrendous service, unclean and unappealing. We gave it three tries and saw minimal improvement and finally crossed it off our list. Whatever the business, provide good value for the price and be good to your customers, and you will likely make it.

[klop]

I realize Stowe was an established resort town years ago, but I wonder what effect Ben and Jerry's (VT #1 tourist attraction) has had on it's continued sustainability. Have you been on route 100 in Stowe on a summer or fall weekend? Yikes! There has to be a happy medium.

[ducky]

Stowe has a solid marketing advantage in the fact that the Resort and Town have the same name - much easier to sell one brand image. This hurts the MRV as does it's geographical remoteness and not having a highway exit identifying it, despite 5 exits being available (3,4,5,9,10). Additionally, as there are already so many established businesses in Stowe, they have a strong chamber of commerce with a much larger revenue base, say 10x ours. This in turn affords a huge marketing budget. Additionally, there are many more destination events in Stowe and they are building on this with new events like Lacrosse week, the British invasion, etc. Stowe even markets in EU and as such sees quite a large number of visitors from EU, most significantly from the UK.

That said, I prefer living in the MRV. In Stowe, you can buy a pair of shoes for $800. In the MRV, not so much, to quote Borat. That I like. The way of life is friendlier here, less pressure. As Win said, some of the empty hotels and restaurants may have been due to lifestyle choices by their owners.

[Hawk]

Howie I think that the skier visits are not the determning factor. Stowe/Waterbury has a much large year round population base that can sustain more businesses. Stowe also has this reputation for being the big dog of the north. I don't know what it is but people just like to day trip there.

[HowieT2]

Howie I think that the skier visits are not the determning factor. Stowe/Waterbury has a much large year round population base that can sustain more businesses. Stowe also has this reputation for being the big dog of the north. I don't know what it is but people just like to day trip there.

I dont disagree. I was just pointing out that the valley businesses that closed, did so during a time of increasing visitors both during the ski season and the rest of the year. so the failures must be attributable to factors other than snowmaking issues at the mtn. SB is doing its job as the growth engine for the valley

I, for one, dont want the MRV to become stowe. I like that there are no traffic lights or mcdonalds. I like being able to tell my fancy friends from LI that if they want to come, come for the outdoor activities because there is no shopping. I cringe when I visit the berkshires. That being said, growth is good when done the right way.
The two biggest ways to increase the attractiveness of SB and the mrv are to complete the lp village so the base is connected to sb village and there is a contiguous critical mass of shops and restaurants at the base, and to complete the mad path. The latter seems to have taken a step back since irene. having the section between bridge street and tremblay closed is a killer.
in order of priorities, I think the snowmaking issue is important but comes after the lp village and then something to address the overcrowding of the GH lodge. fwiw-i dont know what the answer to that is, expanding the GH, replacing the VH, new mid mtn or summit lodge, but I think it was a mistake not to have built a cafeteria in the Farmhouse or schoolhouse when they had the chance.

[Hawk]

Sugarbush is a business. People like to grow their business. The nice base area and the amenities are all fine and I love what they have done. But this only goes so far and I think we have seen the limit on growth associated with these improvements. The amount of new people at the Bush hasn't grown that much. Plain and simple people want no lines and good snowmaking. That is what they come for. Once you get the reputation for blowing snow and have consistant good conditions people will come because they can depend on it. I mean the hard core only make up less than 5% of all skiers. We are not going to grow our numbers/Profit on hard core skiers. Nor are we going to grow our numbers with the Claybrook/Rice Brook crowd either. It's the regular crowd that like to ski the Groomy goom on Snow Ball and Elbow that grow the business. And they expect recovery from adverse weather. I mean in days not weeks and progressive good coverage.

Hey I am invested up here and want/need them to succeed. I have seen how this works at other areas and know the formula. We will always have our Pow days and great woods. That is why I came here. But it also scares the hell our of me to wonder what will happen if we get a few years in a row of really bad winter. Bad meaning no snow. With our current system we will be just plain SH*# out of luck.

[HowieT2]

Sugarbush is a business. People like to grow their business. The nice base area and the amenities are all fine and I love what they have done. But this only goes so far and I think we have seen the limit on growth associated with these improvements. The amount of new people at the Bush hasn't grown that much. Plain and simple people want no lines and good snowmaking. That is what they come for. Once you get the reputation for blowing snow and have consistant good conditions people will come because they can depend on it. I mean the hard core only make up less than 5% of all skiers. We are not going to grow our numbers/Profit on hard core skiers. Nor are we going to grow our numbers with the Claybrook/Rice Brook crowd either. It's the regular crowd that like to ski the Groomy goom on Snow Ball and Elbow that grow the business. And they expect recovery from adverse weather. I mean in days not weeks and progressive good coverage.

Hey I am invested up here and want/need them to succeed. I have seen how this works at other areas and know the formula. We will always have our Pow days and great woods. That is why I came here. But it also scares the hell our of me to wonder what will happen if we get a few years in a row of really bad winter. Bad meaning no snow. With our current system we will be just plain SH*# out of luck.

not for 'nothing, but we had about as bad a year snow wise last year as we are likely to see, and SB was the first, and for a long time only, mtn 100% open. Again, I'd like to see a phalanx of fan guns blanketing the base as much as you (well maybe not quite as much as you), I just think the LP village is of greater priority. Like you said, hard core skiers make up maybe 5% of the market. the other 95% is not looking to go skiing before christmas. and when they decide on their ski vacation destinations, they look at other things besides the on mtn experience, like what can the wife do when she's not skiing, is there a place to walk around and get a bite to eat, etc. look at the ski magazine resort rankings. they have little to do with whether the factors that us hard core skiers consider.
I dont have hard numbers, but it seemed to me judging by the parking lot and cafeteria traffic, that skier visits have been increasing significantly over the past 5-6 seasons.

[Hawk]

not for 'nothing, but we had about as bad a year snow wise last year as we are likely to see, and SB was the first, and for a long time only, mtn 100% open. Again, I'd like to see a phalanx of fan guns blanketing the base as much as you (well maybe not quite as much as you), I just think the LP village is of greater priority. Like you said, hard core skiers make up maybe 5% of the market. the other 95% is not looking to go skiing before christmas. and when they decide on their ski vacation destinations, they look at other things besides the on mtn experience, like what can the wife do when she's not skiing, is there a place to walk around and get a bite to eat, etc. look at the ski magazine resort rankings. they have little to do with whether the factors that us hard core skiers consider.
I dont have hard numbers, but it seemed to me judging by the parking lot and cafeteria traffic, that skier visits have been increasing significantly over the past 5-6 seasons.

I understand where you coming from Howie. I really do. But I do disagree with you on a coulpe of things. First, Last year was not that bad of a year historically speaking. I remember a year in the 80's that we had about 10 trails open in February. There have actually been a few years like that and also years we have had many big warms ups. I will conceed the importance of the early opening but will not understate the importance of quick recovery after a warmup or need for snow making when the year starts out lean on snow and cold.

I think that skier visits may have been up mildly over the last 5 years but not that much. I still haven't seen any lift lines to speak of exept mornings on holiday weekends. Basically it has been pretty much the same for the last 10 or 12 years or whenever Les Otten upgraded the lifts as far as I can tell.

I am telling you Mother Nature is going to rail on us. It's only a matter of time. We have been way lucky. I am not looking for Killington or Sunday River. Just a modest upgrade with a new compressor plant, new pipe up the Main snow making runs like OG , Fling, Downspout, Jester, etc. and the usual runs at Ellen. No new terrain, just what we already use. Something solid and dependable. You don't have to be a genius to understand what we have is severly deficient. Even with the new guns we don't have enough air pressure to blow one continuous run from top to bottom. We have to blow segments to get it done.

[HowieT2]

I understand where you coming from Howie. I really do. But I do disagree with you on a coulpe of things. First, Last year was not that bad of a year historically speaking. I remember a year in the 80's that we had about 10 trails open in February. There have actually been a few years like that and also years we have had many big warms ups. I will conceed the importance of the early opening but will not understate the importance of quick recovery after a warmup or need for snow making when the year starts out lean on snow and cold.

I think that skier visits may have been up mildly over the last 5 years but not that much. I still haven't seen any lift lines to speak of exept mornings on holiday weekends. Basically it has been pretty much the same for the last 10 or 12 years or whenever Les Otten upgraded the lifts as far as I can tell.

I am telling you Mother Nature is going to rail on us. It's only a matter of time. We have been way lucky. I am not looking for Killington or Sunday River. Just a modest upgrade with a new compressor plant, new pipe up the Main snow making runs like OG , Fling, Downspout, Jester, etc. and the usual runs at Ellen. No new terrain, just what we already use. Something solid and dependable. You don't have to be a genius to understand what we have is severly deficient. Even with the new guns we don't have enough air pressure to blow one continuous run from top to bottom. We have to blow segments to get it done.

dont have yearly snowfall numbers for SB, but here they are for stowe, which is representative: (FWIW-it would be great if the powers that be would share that data for SB. it must be kept somewhere)

http://www.americanwx.com/bb/index.p...ttach_id=74570

Last year was by far the worst in the last 15 years. I'd love to see data prior to '97 but I cant find it.

my experience doesnt go back as far as yours, but in the past 5 seasons in which I have been coming up regularly, the snowmaking has been adequate IMHO. not great. not sufficient to get things rolling early. frustrating for sure. there is inarguably significant room for improvement. maybe we've just been lucky, but I think if choices have to be made for allocation of resources for capital improvements, there are other issues that need to be addressed.

[Hawk]

You are right. There is only so much money to go around. They have their plan So I just hope it keeps snowing I know that I am in the minority on my view. That's OK.

[skimore]

Don’t weigh in much, in my eyes this is the kind of skier visit that counts, family of 4 up for the a week end of skiing. 2 adults + 2 kids, tickets & rental alone will cost $574 add to that meals and two nights of lodging and the total tab is probably an easy $1,300. To me these are the visits that make or break the season from a profitability standpoint and maybe convert some of them to skiers or at least spread the word about the good time they had.