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  1. #76

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    It is all about the hours of having temps below 25-26 degrees wet bulb. I am borrowing some language from Killington's snow report.

    A quick snowmaking lesson:
    Ideal snowmaking conditions include outside temperature of 28 degrees with 50% humidity. While 28 degrees with 75% humidity is pretty good and 28 degrees with 100% humidity is marginal for snowmaking.

    Ambient temperatures are not what we all look at. It is the wet bulb temperature. The lower the humidity the lower the wet bulb. Right now (11:30am) at the base of LP it is 35 ambient degrees but because the humidity is only 57% the Wetbulb is 30.4 degrees. Still too high for good snowmaking. At Allyn's lodge ambient is 27 degrees, humidity is 77% so wetbulb is 24.9 degrees which is good for snowmaking. The summit is 20 ambient degrees with near 100% humidity so it is 20 wetbulb which is very good for snowmaking. Hope this helps all understand some of the facts behind where and when snow can be made.


  2. #77
    Thanks for the info, updates and your leadership, Win. Would you mind calling the CEOs of JCP&L and LIPA and tell them how to communicate with your customers?!!!!!!!

  3. #78
    Win once again proves that he is at the least the most transparent and informative ski resort owner, and maybe the best. Thanks for spending the time to inform the Monday morning quarterback snowmaking critics!

    It really is amazing how little air the new guns use vs the old Ratniks.

    Of course, the most efficient snowmaking is from the Heavens. So THINK SNOW!

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
    Thanks for the info, updates and your leadership, Win. Would you mind calling the CEOs of JCP&L and LIPA and tell them how to communicate with your customers?!!!!!!!
    and coned and verizon too. while i have power, im still without phone, tv and internet at home.

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
    Thanks for the info, updates and your leadership, Win. Would you mind calling the CEOs of JCP&L and LIPA and tell them how to communicate with your customers?!!!!!!!

    If you want asnwers on LIPA, contact Cuomo and the state Senate and Legislature for answers. LIPA is a non-profit entity owned by you the tax payers of NY with management selected by the aforemention political entities.

    http://www.lipower.org/company/profi...html#Steinberg

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman View Post
    Great post.

    I would continue to argue (as I have for years here) that investing in fixed location fan guns makes sense on certain slugs of wide, high traffic, intermediate terrain at SB:
    - Spring Fling
    - Snowball
    - Pushover/Slow Poke
    - Birch Run
    - the junction of Stein's/Lower OG/Lower Jester
    - select spots on Downspout (like that wide spot where it turns to the right after the OG intersection)
    - Lower Ripcord
    - Inverness
    - Times Square around the base of the NRX
    - Northstar
    - Cruiser
    - Which way
    - Elbow
    - Lower Rim Run

    Those spots comprise the majority of the most popular cruising terrain at SB, and they all have theproper width and pitch for fan guns. Fan guns have the additional benefit of consuming 0 CFM against 150 gpm, so they fit in the construct of trying to optimize with a given/fixed amount of compressed air. I think the major drawback for SB is the capital cost, but that's a business decision, not a snow surfaces decision.


    Yeah - me too - I feel like a handful of fan jets at the wide high traffic areas like downspout - around the HG chair and lower snowball/base area would be a helpful boost to early season start up and mid season resurfacing. I know the big fans are far more capital intensive, but they do put out more gallons per minute in marginal weather and that is obviously key in early season as we have seen over the last several Novembers. Plus, I know once you add a few of these fans, the next several falls will have copious nights with temps in the single digits at the base rather than these falls of late when it struggles to get to 28. Anywho...fingers crossed for snow.

  7. #82
    The surprise of the day - as of 10:45am and per the CAM the guns are still running at the base. The web says base temp 33, so maybe these new guns really can make snow in marginal temps.......(I am sure the temp is actually a bit lower than that but still marginal)

  8. #83
    In the past, the discussion here had assumed that the amount of air was the limiting factor in snow production. and that's why some have begged for more compressors and others for fan guns, myself included. I wonder if that is still actually the case. LP maxes out of water at 4000gpm (see Win's post above). each of the snologic guns puts out 20-70 gpm as do the less air efficient guns. there are 2 fan guns at 150 gpm so thats 300 gpm. then means they can run a max of 52 guns if they are getting 70 gpm out of them and 74 at 50 gpm. How many guns are they running simultaneously now??? correct me if im wrong but they have to be running at least 50 guns now, so they have to be close to maxing out on water, not air (and that is with the 20 snologix still over on inverness). once all 40 snologix are at LP, they should regularly be maxing out on water, no?

    why is the water limited to 4000 gpm? is that a legal limitation that simply can't be increased? is it a system limitation that could be increased?

  9. #84
    gostan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    In the past, the discussion here had assumed that the amount of air was the limiting factor in snow production. and that's why some have begged for more compressors and others for fan guns, myself included. I wonder if that is still actually the case. LP maxes out of water at 4000gpm (see Win's post above). each of the snologic guns puts out 20-70 gpm as do the less air efficient guns. there are 2 fan guns at 150 gpm so thats 300 gpm. then means they can run a max of 52 guns if they are getting 70 gpm out of them and 74 at 50 gpm. How many guns are they running simultaneously now??? correct me if im wrong but they have to be running at least 50 guns now, so they have to be close to maxing out on water, not air (and that is with the 20 snologix still over on inverness). once all 40 snologix are at LP, they should regularly be maxing out on water, no?

    why is the water limited to 4000 gpm? is that a legal limitation that simply can't be increased? is it a system limitation that could be increased?
    I do not have ski area snowmaking water withdrawal permit experience, but I imagine that there is a VT 250 state permit process along with a 401 Water Quality certification from Army .corp. of Engineers. Howie, your question led me to the following PDF. http://Www.vtwaterquality.org/rivers...v_snowrule.pdf

    After a day of dealing with various Mass DEP and EPA issues, I would not want to have to wade through this process.
    Stan

    "There's No Cure For Life"

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    In the past, the discussion here had assumed that the amount of air was the limiting factor in snow production. and that's why some have begged for more compressors and others for fan guns, myself included. I wonder if that is still actually the case. LP maxes out of water at 4000gpm (see Win's post above). each of the snologic guns puts out 20-70 gpm as do the less air efficient guns. there are 2 fan guns at 150 gpm so thats 300 gpm. then means they can run a max of 52 guns if they are getting 70 gpm out of them and 74 at 50 gpm. How many guns are they running simultaneously now??? correct me if im wrong but they have to be running at least 50 guns now, so they have to be close to maxing out on water, not air (and that is with the 20 snologix still over on inverness). once all 40 snologix are at LP, they should regularly be maxing out on water, no?

    why is the water limited to 4000 gpm? is that a legal limitation that simply can't be increased? is it a system limitation that could be increased?
    Nice snow gun analysis Howie; GPM absolutely matters. I don’t know the particulars, but I believe Okemo can operate at something closer to 8k to 10k GPM. Its a sure bet Kton, Stowe, Stratton and others have something far more than 4k as well. Win is in a tough spot because LP and ME require duplicative snowmaking systems when other mtns can get more efficiency from a single main system with a few branches for the far corners of the mtn. If SB had the combined fire power of LP and ME at one location, early season top to bottom skiing would surely be more reliable as total gun saturation could be assured on an entire run T2B. As of now, SB cannot get that level of saturation w/o the benefit of very cold temps & more GPM.

    A lack of major water source and place to store such water is another handicap for Sugarbush. My understanding is that the door is closed for an increased intake permit from the Mad River beyond the current volume.
    Storing more water is key for sustained early season snowmaking. I don’t know if part of the answer for water resources could mean a major pond up near the base of LP to collect more mtn runoff during warm spells. Seems to me that SB’s relatively tight base area configuration puts a bit of a damper on a larger pond unless they reduce the parking lot.

    Lastly, I think Win has hinted that Kton, Okemo, Sunday River and others all built their massive snowmaking systems right before environmental regulations became more stringent, particularly with respect to water withdraw rights and pond building. Plus, the other mtns do not have the layer of complexion the Nat Forrest Service adds to the picture.

    Win, what is the issue with building a larger pond, could you do it if you wanted too?

  11. #86
    If i had to guess, id say the 4000gpm is the maximum permitted amount and that cant be increased. They replaced all the pipe 2 years ago, so if that was the limiting factor, one would think, they simply would have installed bigger pipes.

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    If i had to guess, id say the 4000gpm is the maximum permitted amount and that cant be increased. They replaced all the pipe 2 years ago, so if that was the limiting factor, one would think, they simply would have installed bigger pipes.
    That is the maximum volume you can get through the pipe from the pond.

    I just heard from our snowmakers, so you are the first to hear this. Top to Bottom tomorrow when Bravo begins turning at 9am. Upper Organgrinder, Upper Jester, Downspout all the way and across Coffee Run to the bottom. Allyn's Lodge will be open for snacks too as well as base area F&B.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by win View Post
    That is the maximum volume you can get through the pipe from the pond.

    I just heard from our snowmakers, so you are the first to hear this. Top to Bottom tomorrow when Bravo begins turning at 9am. Upper Organgrinder, Upper Jester, Downspout all the way and across Coffee Run to the bottom. Allyn's Lodge will be open for snacks too as well as base area F&B.
    T2B...yeah! & Upper OG is a surprise pre TDay snack. Way to go MT OPs. See you all in the corral tomorrow am.
    Stan

    "There's No Cure For Life"

  14. #89
    Mike and crew are to be commended. Having T2B is a major deal, but throwing in Upper OG is pretty major. Remember, its only November 16th!!!!

    Wish I could be there but I hope to be soon.

    THINK SNOW!

  15. #90
    Looking forward to tomorrow - great news on T2B skiing.

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