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  1. #61
    Hello.....been lurking for a couple of years and finally decided to take the plunge to officially join. As a longtime skier in the MRV, the current ownership has done wonders, but snowmaking challenges do affect the ability to start early in the season and recover quickly when needed.

    I understand the water/power/compressor limitations, but how about taking a different approach, especially early in the season to get started. Since we can't put the product down in enough volume on enough trail acreage, is there any opportuity to improve the physical trail surface to minimze the amount required to get started skiing? I'm thinking of removal of select obstacles, rocks, stumps etc and improving trail surface consistency by select grading and/or mowing. Please understand I spend as much time as possible in the woods and love the challenges of non-standard terrain, but doing the above on a few select beginner/intermediate type of terrain could allow SB to start ealier with less manmade snow.



    I'm completely against bulldozing terrain and hate the cookie-cutter near straright line type of trails some mountains have and that's why I love SB and MRG, but accomplishing this type of grading/terrain improvement on just a few areas might be cost effective and not require much of an investment? I also have to say that I really have no clue as to what this type of project would entail from a resource perspective, but just wanted to throw it out there.

    Looking forward to getting back to skiing very soon!

  2. #62

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Groton, MA and Warren, VT
    Posts
    124
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I am telling you Mother Nature is going to rail on us. It's only a matter of time. We have been way lucky.
    It happens. The worst season I can remember may have been '90-'91 (around then anyway). There was a bad one a couple years prior to that also. Just no snow either year. We had season passes, but would drive to Stowe or Killington to ski. Back then "North" (Mt Ellen) had the better snowmaking, way better than "South".

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You are right. There is only so much money to go around. They have their plan So I just hope it keeps snowing I know that I am in the minority on my view. That's OK.
    I dont know that you're in the minority on the issue.

  4. #64

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    warren
    Posts
    1,217
    Sugarbushskier, we do mow the trails every year and this makes for a better ski experience. There really isn't other stuff that impacts trail openings. It is necessary to have water bars to prevent erosion so they need to be filled in with snow but groomers make that happen on the trails we groom.

    HowieT2, our average snowfall over the past 50 years is 269 inches. (this is on the website under Mountain Stats). If anything, I think we err on the side of underreporting. I am not sure where Stowe measures. If it is the top of Mansfield that would add to their totals. We measure at LP at base, Allyn's Lodge and top of Heaven's Gate. Last year we had 166 inches which was the lowest in a number of years but still nearly fourteen feet of natural snow. The biggest issue last year was there was hardly any snow in Boston, New York and even Burlington. The people that came were pleasantly surprised by the conditions. Our snowmakers and groomer did an excellent job last winter and we were one of the few Mountains in the East to be 100% open from mid-January to mid-March.

    The past two days did some damage, but it looks like we will resume snowmaking tomorrow and we will be open this Saturday most likely skiing on Upper Jester, Downspout and Upper Organgrinder and I think the conditions up there will be good. Given the temperature forecast it is possible but not likely we will get top to bottom so be ready to download. We need 24-36 hours of temperatures in the low twenties to get enough snow from Heaven's Gate lift down to the base to open to the base. If we can't make snow low, we are set up to begin snowmaking on Ripcord.
    Last edited by win; 11-12-2012 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by win View Post
    Sugarbushskier, we do mow the trails every year and this makes for a better ski experience. There really isn't other stuff that impacts trail openings. It is necessary to have water bars to prevent erosion so they need to be filled in with snow but groomers make that happen on the trails we groom.

    HowieT2, our average snowfall over the past 50 years is 269 inches. (this is on the website under Mountain Stats). If anything, I think we err on the side of underreporting. I am not sure where Stowe measures. If it is the top of Mansfield that would add to their totals. We measure at LP at base, Allyn's Lodge and top of Heaven's Gate. Last year we had 166 inches which was the lowest in a number of years but still nearly fourteen feet of natural snow. The biggest issue last year was there was hardly any snow in Boston, New York and even Burlington. The people that came were pleasantly surprised by the conditions. Our snowmakers and groomer did an excellent job last winter and we were one of the few Mountains in the East to be 100% open from mid-January to mid-March.

    The past two days did some damage, but it looks like we will resume snowmaking tomorrow and we will be open this Saturday most likely skiing on Upper Jester, Downspout and Upper Organgrinder and I think the conditions up there will be good. Given the temperature forecast it is possible but not likely we will get top to bottom so be ready to download. We need 24-36 hours of temperatures in the low twenties to get enough snow from Heaven's Gate lift down to the base to open to the base. If we can't make snow low, we are set up to begin snowmaking on Ripcord.
    Win, I'm interested in the annual (as opposed to average) snowfall numbers so as to compare past winters with what's expected in the upcoming season. The weather people seem to look for analogous prior seasons for guidance. I've heard 75-76 and 07-08 bandied about for this year.

    Also, I think Stowe measures a stake at 3000'.
    Last edited by HowieT2; 11-12-2012 at 08:51 PM.

  6. #66

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In the woods of Mad River Valley
    Posts
    599
    What a great day I had today at Sunday River. Top to bottom side to side on 3 ways down plus a terrain park. And we can't make one way down?

  7. #67

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    HERE MAYBE THERE
    Posts
    10

    It's just a Maine thing! SKI BETTER OVER HERE ..........RNM

    Quote Originally Posted by Treeskier View Post
    What a great day I had today at Sunday River. Top to bottom side to side on 3 ways down plus a terrain park. And we can't make one way down?
    Less was more overhere anyway!

  8. #68
    Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Just ahead of you in the woods....
    Posts
    1,823
    Well there you have it. I guess last year was great. I just recalibrated my conditions peception meter so that my expectations we will be all set for future years. I just didn't realize that it was supposed to be that low. My bad.
    Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
    Got two good eyes but we still don’t see!

  9. #69

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    warren
    Posts
    1,217
    The cold was returned and it was snowing from the middle of Spring Fling up this morning. Not a ton but better than nothing and snowmaking will resume above mid-mountain. It is 36 degrees at the base but colder up high.

  10. #70
    Here is a cool site for historical info from Mt Mansfield snow stake (which is at 3,900' they say). Make sure to toggle to Snow Depth.

    http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/?Page=mansel.php3

    There is also a function at the bottom to create a bar graph of seasonal snowfall (though it seems a little funky - the yearly graphs are the best data). But based on this you might be surprised that while 2011/12 was the lowest since '79, there were several years that were effectively the same ('82,'90,'94).

    So yes, it was a bad year and worst in many, many years. But there is also the issue of comparison as prior years had been so good, and how winter never really showed in major cities, and really even in Burlington.

    My 2cents - the long range weather guys are looking for a colder/snowier winter, even if not a killer one and we are moving into a good cool down for the next several weeks that will make the beginning of 12/13 have no resemblance to last year.

    The bottom line is that Sugarbush needs to investment in snowmaking beyond a dozen or so energy efficient guns. This becomes more evident every year, and will become more glaring as Stowe rolls out the new guns, Jay continues to invest, and now Burke is making big investments. I am not questioning Win's prioritization as he has done a fantastic job, but if we are having this discussion in a couple of years then I believe skier visits will be impacted significantly.

    In the meantime, THINK SNOW! It solves most problems...........

  11. #71

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    warren
    Posts
    1,217
    We will continue to invest. By the way we bought 40 guns last year. Twenty are used to get Inverness open for GMVS and then most are moved over to LP. These guns use only 5 CFM. When all 40 are running they use a total of only 200 CFM. These forty replace one old Ratnick and if they are putting out 20 - 70 gallons (depending on the temperatures) per minute you can see the impact they have. An old gun put out the same gallons of water as one new gun. Some resorts this year bought some other equipment that cost less than the snowlogics and use 30 CFM. That is 6x the air of the snowlogics, and they put out about the same gpm. For a mountain like ours it is likely that we will use different equipment on different parts of the mountain. Fan guns cost about $30K installed and can put out up to 150 gpm in colder temperatures. They work well on wide intermediate trails but they are difficult to move around and would not work on most of our trails. That said we have three in operation this year. The key to making snow is to try to maximize the amount of water than can be put through the system. At Lincoln Peak our capacity is around 4,000 gallons per minute and somewhat less at ME. You can either max the water by getting more compressed by renting diesel compressors or by buying more electric compressors or you can continue to invest in technology that allows you to pump more water with the same compressed air. This latter alternatives is the one that makes sense and why we will continue to invest in low energy equipment rather than adding more air. Mountains like Killington and Sunday River can pump more water because of the system built years ago. Our water capacity is what it is.

    Investment by the way in snowmaking is not always visible. We replaced main pipes at both LP and ME two years ago, have rebuilt our compressor, rebuilt the cooling towers, etc to keep the system operating efficiently. These are big capital items and are as important as buying new guns, but as I said, when we have a good year and capital to invest we will continue to improve our capacity.

  12. #72

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ipswich, MA
    Posts
    20

    Jester

    this afternoon...
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  13. #73
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Behind That Tree
    Posts
    1,627
    Quote Originally Posted by win View Post
    We will continue to invest. By the way we bought 40 guns last year. Twenty are used to get Inverness open for GMVS and then most are moved over to LP. These guns use only 5 CFM. When all 40 are running they use a total of only 200 CFM. These forty replace one old Ratnick and if they are putting out 20 - 70 gallons (depending on the temperatures) per minute you can see the impact they have. An old gun put out the same gallons of water as one new gun. Some resorts this year bought some other equipment that cost less than the snowlogics and use 30 CFM. That is 6x the air of the snowlogics, and they put out about the same gpm. For a mountain like ours it is likely that we will use different equipment on different parts of the mountain. Fan guns cost about $30K installed and can put out up to 150 gpm in colder temperatures. They work well on wide intermediate trails but they are difficult to move around and would not work on most of our trails. That said we have three in operation this year. The key to making snow is to try to maximize the amount of water than can be put through the system. At Lincoln Peak our capacity is around 4,000 gallons per minute and somewhat less at ME. You can either max the water by getting more compressed by renting diesel compressors or by buying more electric compressors or you can continue to invest in technology that allows you to pump more water with the same compressed air. This latter alternatives is the one that makes sense and why we will continue to invest in low energy equipment rather than adding more air. Mountains like Killington and Sunday River can pump more water because of the system built years ago. Our water capacity is what it is.

    Investment by the way in snowmaking is not always visible. We replaced main pipes at both LP and ME two years ago, have rebuilt our compressor, rebuilt the cooling towers, etc to keep the system operating efficiently. These are big capital items and are as important as buying new guns, but as I said, when we have a good year and capital to invest we will continue to improve our capacity.
    Great post.

    I would continue to argue (as I have for years here) that investing in fixed location fan guns makes sense on certain slugs of wide, high traffic, intermediate terrain at SB:
    - Spring Fling
    - Snowball
    - Pushover/Slow Poke
    - Birch Run
    - the junction of Stein's/Lower OG/Lower Jester
    - select spots on Downspout (like that wide spot where it turns to the right after the OG intersection)
    - Lower Ripcord
    - Inverness
    - Times Square around the base of the NRX
    - Northstar
    - Cruiser
    - Which way
    - Elbow
    - Lower Rim Run

    Those spots comprise the majority of the most popular cruising terrain at SB, and they all have theproper width and pitch for fan guns. Fan guns have the additional benefit of consuming 0 CFM against 150 gpm, so they fit in the construct of trying to optimize with a given/fixed amount of compressed air. I think the major drawback for SB is the capital cost, but that's a business decision, not a snow surfaces decision.

  14. #74

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Richmond, VT
    Posts
    47
    As indicated, Mountain Ops seem to be doing the best they can to have t2b coverage by Saturday's opening, if at all possible. Surely, with the lower guns firing around Valley House, you'd have to imagine the run-out is also in play. As daytime temps climb at lowest elevations, it would seem snowmaking should be continuous at higher els. Hoping for a fun day, no matter the route down, on Saturday! See y'all then, or as soon as you can BE HERE.

  15. #75

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In the woods of Mad River Valley
    Posts
    599
    Really nice to see snow guns around super brovo lift on the web cam at 11:06 AM

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