MRG/Sugarbush Cooperation

[gostan]

I will respond to all of the ad agencies and spambots that find their way to MRV if it will bring some real snow!

[Hawk]

I hear ya Howie. We skined on Saturday up to North Linx throught the woods. 1" inch of dust on Crust. It was actualy pretty fun. It was a game of guessing exactly how steep you could go. You had to really pay attention to the slope and carefully pick your line. If you chose to steep then you broke free and slid. It was funny to hear the people behind you give you the buzzer sound when you failed. Once you failed you went to the end of the line and had to listen to insults and mocking. Everybody failed no matter what set up they were on at one time or another.

Slim pickins out there.

[ahm]

Hawk,

Skins are a great way to go have some fun when the snow is limited. In regards to the sliding there are a couple ways, really set the ski through the heel as you slide it forward or get a set of ski crampons. The minute you really need them you'll wish you had them. You'll be happy with the purchase, and they are quite cheap. Sounds like a fun skin for the group.

AHM

[Hawk]

I own ski crampons for my set up. I didn't bring them. We were just out on a friendly tour with wife and friends. It was just more about being silly and trying to go straight up hill in icy conditions. You have to realize that there is only about 1 foot of snow with a sold bombproof crust on top with 1" of snow. That 1" is not bonded at all. Just dust on crust. There is no technique that is going to make you stick once you break loose. It was fun trying.

[pcampbell]

i skinned up the Mad River Glen snowshoe trail the other day, only to the top of the sunnyside lift. VERY HARD! Lots of side stepping. Very icy. i remember snowshoeing behind someone up to the top last year and don't remember it LOOKING so hard. I am hoping that it had to do with the amount of snow on the ground evening out the terrain and snow (not ice) giving grip.

[RopeTow]

Its great to see that SB and MRG will cooperate this winter on passes for college skiers and twenty-somethings. I'm still hopeful that the two areas can find a way to get together and give us a ski-through card/pass use-able at either area as discussed last winter.

Thinkin' snow!

[Hawk]

I didn't undrstand what you were saying RopeTow. I do do now. That is a great College pass for Skiers. Not so good for snowboarders. Wow Unlimited sking at all three areas for $359.

http://www.sugarbush.com/landing/college-pass.html

[RopeTow]

From Win's email this morning:

"While most of our pass categories are the same as last year, this season we have entered into a new partnership with Mad River Glen and together we are offering a joint Sugarbush/MRG pass called the Threesome College Pass (Lincoln Peak, Mt. Ellen, MRG). There is a lot of excitement out there about this new pass and we are glad to be able to offer such competitive pricing for college students. We have also added "Add Mad" to our For20s Pass, which allows passholders to ski at Mad River Glen on weekdays.

When Jamey Wimble, Eric Friedman, and I sat down to talk about our new partnership, we all realized how great it is for college students and twenty-somethings to be discovering the Mad River Valley and, in some cases, rediscovering skiing and riding because of this affordable pass. This is good for everyone who loves the sport. We are excited to be working more closely with our neighbors at Mad River Glen and being able to offer the best of both worlds. I look forward to finding even more ways of working together in the future.

As in years past, many of our passes have significant built–in discounts both at Sugarbush and around the Valley."

This is a great new development and bodes well for attracting college students and twenty-somethings (back) to the Valley. I am especially heartened by Win's comment that he's looking "forward to finding even more ways of working together in the future".

Maybe the dream of a no-hassle "Valley Pass" some day isn't crazy, after all.

[RopeTow]

From Eric's email earlier today:

MRG & Sugarbush - Together at Last!

They said it would never happen but it finally has. Mad River Glen and Sugarbush are working together to bring more skiers to the Mad River Valley. Here's a look at the new initiatives:

• The new Threesome College Pass gives full time college students unrestricted access to ski Mad River Glen as well as skiing/riding at Sugarbush's Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen. This new pass costs students a mere $359 (if purchased before November 6).

• We are also working together to target the key young adult demographic by offering special rates for skiers under the age of 30. These skiers can get a Sugarbush "For 20's" pass with the Add Mad" upgrade which gives unrestricted access to both of Sugarbush's mountains and midweek (holiday periods included) for $399 or they can get a Mad River Glen 20's Midweek Pass for only $199.

• The mountains are also working along with the Mad River Valley Chamber of Commerce to attract destination visitors with the "Ski The Valley Plus Passport" which is available to skiers who book extended ski and stay packages. It includes unrestricted access to all three mountains along with extra "pluses" at theaters, restaurants and shops throughout the Mad River Valley.

Good going and Keep it up guys! Next step is an all-area Valley Card for the regulars!

[RopeTow]

From MRG's website today:

"To help out MRG skiers through this tough period our good friends next door at Sugarbush are offering all Mad River Season Passholders half price skiing at Mount Ellen from today through the weekend. The only exception is on Thursday which is their regular $30 Thursdays at Mt. Ellen special. Simply bring a current season pass with you to be eligible for this ticket price. We'd like to thank Win Smith and his team for making this option available to our skiers - mighty neighborly of you guys - thanks so much!"

This is another great development for the two areas!

FWIW, I'm still looking forward to the day when I can buy a Valley Season Pass and ski anywhere in the MRV on one pass without further payment, or a Valley Direct Card and pay electronically whether I go to SB or MRG without lining up at the ticket window.

But in the meantime kudos to Win and the two areas for their deepening cooperation.

[pcampbell]

It wouldn't take much to do an all 3 peaks pass since they are already doing some sort of cooperation with the 3some thing. You can get a full season MRG and full season Sugarbush for about $2028 bucks in the pre-season. So maybe a little incentive to get both passes in one???

[HowieT2]

Your not looking at the BIG picture. MRG must appeal to their shareholders. They like the not crowded vibe and the all natural snow appeal. They only have several thousand season pass holders, if that, and they have very limited uphill capacity. If you were to give all the season pass holders at SB, who number many more thousands than MRG, the place would get super crowded with incredible lift lines. I would assure you that the next season pass holder meeting that would immediately be removed as an option. As much as we would like to see it, you have to look at this logically without our emotions being involved. It really isn't feasible. I just don't see how with the facts anyone thinks that it is possible and would work out in the long run.

+1
not only would mrg get more crowded than it already is on powder days, but there would be no incentive to get an sb pass for those who like mrg but recognize that it is unskiable half the season. so sb loses that revenue. not going to work for either mtn because they are so different.

[RopeTow]

+1
not only would mrg get more crowded than it already is on powder days, but there would be no incentive to get an sb pass for those who like mrg but recognize that it is unskiable half the season. so sb loses that revenue. not going to work for either mtn because they are so different.

I'm usually pretty averse to online arguments, but I have to say that the naysayers are being too closed-minded, negative and unimaginative.

With respect to season passes, Pcampbell is right. Anyone who wants a season pass to both areas today can buy "one" for the early purchase price of $1279 + $749 = $2028 (or less if, for example, they buy an MRG Value Pass or a SB 5 day only or Mt Ellen only pass). Today, any SB passholder who wants to ski MRG on a powder day or a bluebird day or any day (who is not already an MRG season passholder) can buy a ticket online or at the window and ski there. With a Madcard, that ticket costs only about $48. There are numerous other discounts available at MRG.

The marketing and economic challenge of an "all area" season pass is simply to price the pass at a point enough below $2028 and enough above current season pass and daily ticket prices so as to increase total revenue for both areas (for example by persuading some existing SB and MRG season pass holders to pay a few hundred more dollars for certain, specified additional "all area" privileges and by attracting skiers to the MRV who are currently not buying any season pass or are buying season passes at Stowe, Jay, or Killington etc) and then agree to a formula to share the incremental revenue fairly. This should be easy enough to do by simply tracking where "all area" passholders actually ski.

I don't necessarily buy the argument that MRG would be overrun on powder days by SB passholders. First of all, how many SB season passholders would upgrade to an "all area" pass costing several hundred dollars more than a SB only season pass? All? Not likely. A couple hundred? Maybe.

And on a powder day why would more SB skiers necessarily go to MRG than vice versa? I appreciate MRG's many charms, but on a powder day I might well decide to avoid the inevitable long lines on the single chair and ski Castlerock, Slidebrook, Grinder, Ripcord, Paradise, Exterminator and FIS at SB. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't plenty of MRG skiers who would decide to ski SB on any given day if they could do so on their season pass. If I am wrong and MRG would in fact be swamped on powder days, the price of an all area pass should simply be increased until balance is reached. Or the pass could be limited, for example, to non-saturday or non-weekend and/or non-holiday days.

I would also admit that if, for example, the existing price for an early purchase SB only pass is $1279 and, hypothetically, for an MRG add-on, say an additional $400, for a total of $1679, the price for an all area MRG season pass would have to be the same $1679, a substantial and perhaps prohibitive increase over the MRG early purchase price of $749. Perhaps cheaper "all area" passes could be offered with more limited (such as midweek only or Mt Ellen only) privileges that would be attractive to MRG passholders. Certainly some additional but limited privileges at SB as "insurance" to hedge against bad snow years (such as this year) should be attractive to some MRG season passholders who have already invested in a house and travel expense to the MRV.

Even if pricing an "all area" pass proves too difficult, there is no reason (other than perhaps "synching" the lift ticket readers) why the two areas couldn't sponsor a Valley Direct Card, similar to the SugarDirect Card. Each area could specify the discounts available at its "home" area. It would be just as if MRG offered a Mad Direct Card and the two areas agreed to combine the two cards on one piece of plastic. As I have proposed before, a Valley Direct Card could also include additional discounts on food, lodging, retail etc. across the MRV. Again, the whole purpose would be to make skiing in the Valley more convenient and efficient and also to attract skiers who are currently spending their ski dollars outside the MRV.

My last point would be to say again that SB and MRG need to be partners with each other and with all of the other businesses in the Valley if they are to survive and thrive in tough economic times and where there are numerous other places to spend disposable skiing dollars. Some of which other places have advantages that neither SB nor MRG has.

[RopeTow]

... If you were to give all the season pass holders at SB, who number many more thousands than MRG, the place would get super crowded with incredible lift lines. ...

I don't think anybody is proposing "giving" anybody anything. SB season pass holders would have to PAY for additional MRG privileges. How much is the question.

[RopeTow]

FWIW, Alta and Snowbird, adjacent to each other but under separate ownership, with differing gestalts (Alta doesn't permit riding...sound familiar?), offer joint passes.

Alta says: "[Joint] Day Passes are available at any Alta or selected Snowbird ticket window. Alta and Snowbird continue to maintain separate ownership and operation, preserving the unique skiing experience and resort atmosphere each offers. Guests can continue to purchase individual resort passes."

Here's how they price their tickets/passes (although numerous limited privilege and age specific discounts are also available):

Alta Adult One Day $75
Snowbird Adult One Day $85
Alta/Snowbird One Day $99

Alta Late Buy Season Pass $725
Snowbird Late Buy Season Pass $1199
AltaSnowbird Late Buy Season Pass $1799*

*Price on Snowbird Website. To see all the variations and permutations and discounts go to http://www.alta.com/pages/passes.php and https://tickets.snowbird.com/e-commerce/itemlist.aspx.

I am sure those predisposed to a negative mindset are ready to say that Snowbird/Alta are a totally different situation because blah blah blah (no disrespect intended). But they are not that different. The simple fact is likely to be that the two separate managements have sat down together and said something to the effect of, "We are in a very competitive business. There are about eight other resorts an hour or less away from us that skiers can choose instead of us. How do we drive more skier traffic up Little Cottonwood Canyon road? I know! Let's market our combined attraction jointly! We may take a little business away from each other, but that should even out. The good news is that we will be taking business away from Deer Valley and Park City which we otherwise wouldn't get. Our total revenues should grow and our seasonal workers, hotels, condos, equipment sales and rental businesses, gas stations and food establishments (on which both areas depend and which depend on the attractiveness of both areas) should all benefit."

I continue to push on this because it is the right thing to do. Our little valley is quaint and picturesque and offers a wonderful skiing product (between thaws). Yes the two (or is it three?) mountains offer very different skiing experiences and personalities. But if we want to see second home prices increase, the restaurant scene in the Valley revived, if we want to draw more young people, if we want to goose revenue so that Win and Eric can continue to invest in and upgrade their grooming and snow-making, the two areas really should cooperate more and more. The all area College Pass and Win's recent offer to let MRG season passholders purchase discount tickets at Mt Ellen are, of course, evidence that it can be done.