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Thread: New Snow Guns

  1. #31

    The problem

    Listen its understandable mother nature isn't cooperating. There has been some adversity, I just think we need to be honest, I love sugarbush, but the impression outsiders are getting is that it is a place not worth going to. Any people new to the place this christmas are not likely to return with the amount of trails open even with mt ellen open. I was arround the first time it almost went under and in. 93 lack of snow played a role. Nobody is asking for sr or killington snowmaking, just good enough that reasonably by the third weekend in december enough terrain is open to spread the people out and it will be good enogh for intermediates and children. I also think the current problem is more opertional than capacity requiring investment. I think others mountains like stowe managed to move quickly from trail to trail open more routes down, and thanks circled back to last down insurance snow. I still think a few diesel compressors would have helped. Long term, yes investments could be made to make it better, but that isn't and excuses for how poor it is now.

  2. #32
    Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    and Hawk, I have to disagree with you about the temperatures. They have been marginal at best with only a few nights dipping into the teens. I think december is running about 10 degrees above normal following a very warm november so the ground isnt even frozen.

    All that being said, with the opening of mellon this weekend, the trail count will expand exponentially. so we got that going for us, which is nice.
    Howie, Sunday River has 18 trails and is promising another 12 by Christmas. Elevation there is less than 3000. They are posting that they have had 34 snowmaking days. Sounds like plenty of cold to me. You are dead wrong if you don't think there has not been cold enough temps. Also Stowe's skiing is excellent right now. I have a guy in my office that is a season pass holder and has skiied 6 day so far there. His reports are accurate. Stop drinking the coolaid
    Trouble with you is the trouble with me,
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  3. #33

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    I'm with Hawk on this one, too. The FACT that the new snow logic guns were running Saturday afternoon at the Base at 2:45pm when I downloaded and were producing good quality snow, demonstrates clearly that these guns perform well at the 30F temp that was at the base. The temperatures are just fine for snow making! The snow coming out of the guns was not wet heavy snot. It was drifting in the light breeze, which demonstrates a good quality dry snow product. The lack of snowy trails for us to get our fix is not due to the temperatures. period. We need to get off that with all the supporting evidence. Point fingers at air capacity, or water flow restrictions, or Green Mountain Power restrictions, whatever, but the temps are just fine for snow making. That is why, as Hawk points out, all the other resorts in VT have plenty of snow. Compressed air plus water and temps below freezing make snow. period. The new guns are doing their job as advertised, albeit maybe they need to be turned up to higher flow rates.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Howie, Sunday River has 18 trails and is promising another 12 by Christmas. Elevation there is less than 3000. They are posting that they have had 34 snowmaking days. Sounds like plenty of cold to me. You are dead wrong if you don't think there has not been cold enough temps. Also Stowe's skiing is excellent right now. I have a guy in my office that is a season pass holder and has skiied 6 day so far there. His reports are accurate. Stop drinking the coolaid
    Im not drinking any coolaid. Facts are facts. Its been warm for everyone. If sr has done a better job, good for them, but it doesnt change the fact that it has been much warmer than normal. To say it has been "plenty cold" is simply not true. That doesnt mean that im saying that sb's snowmaking has been up to par.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Brew Ski View Post
    I'm with Hawk on this one, too. The FACT that the new snow logic guns were running Saturday afternoon at the Base at 2:45pm when I downloaded and were producing good quality snow, demonstrates clearly that these guns perform well at the 30F temp that was at the base. The temperatures are just fine for snow making! The snow coming out of the guns was not wet heavy snot. It was drifting in the light breeze, which demonstrates a good quality dry snow product. The lack of snowy trails for us to get our fix is not due to the temperatures. period. We need to get off that with all the supporting evidence. Point fingers at air capacity, or water flow restrictions, or Green Mountain Power restrictions, whatever, but the temps are just fine for snow making. That is why, as Hawk points out, all the other resorts in VT have plenty of snow. Compressed air plus water and temps below freezing make snow. period. The new guns are doing their job as advertised, albeit maybe they need to be turned up to higher flow rates.
    You are missing my point about the guns and youre forcing me to play devils advocate here. Just because there is snow coming out of the snow logic guns doesnt mean they are performing up to expectations in terms of their air use efficiency. And if they are using more air in the marginal temperatures we have experienced, they arent providing the increased capacity one would have expected from the marketing hype. Im not taking sides here. Im not arguing that the warmth is an excuse. Fact is, during this same debate last year, i advocated investing in fan guns. But sb chose to go with these snow logic guns because they were supposed to be so efficient thereby freeing up air capacity to make more snow. As that obviously isnt happening, im curious to know why. The only explanation that ive heard that makes sense, is that the new guns havent performed as effeciently as anticipated. The other resorts have orders of magnitude more fan guns than sb.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowieT2 View Post
    You are missing my point about the guns and youre forcing me to play devils advocate here. Just because there is snow coming out of the snow logic guns doesnt mean they are performing up to expectations in terms of their air use efficiency. And if they are using more air in the marginal temperatures we have experienced, they arent providing the increased capacity one would have expected from the marketing hype. Im not taking sides here. Im not arguing that the warmth is an excuse. Fact is, during this same debate last year, i advocated investing in fan guns. But sb chose to go with these snow logic guns because they were supposed to be so efficient thereby freeing up air capacity to make more snow. As that obviously isnt happening, im curious to know why. The only explanation that ive heard that makes sense, is that the new guns havent performed as effeciently as anticipated. The other resorts have orders of magnitude more fan guns than sb.
    OK Howie, now were getting somewhere. We agree it isn't a temperature problem but an air, water or power capacity issue. I agree that if the new snow logic guns require more compressed air at warmer temps to produce snow at higher volume settings, and there is only air capacity for running them at lowest settings, the we are talking about a compressed air capacity issue. Good progress, lets focus on that. The word was that the compressors has been worked on this past summer to "get them back into shape" for this coming winter. The tuned up compressors should be performing "better" and therefore provide more air capacity than in previous seasons. But as we all see, we just are not getting enough air capacity to drive even highly more efficient snow logic guns. So it seems we still have a poor air compression system for what is needed to have early season skiing at our favorite mountain.

    Air compressors can work on electricity (we know that is restricted by GMP, especially at holiday time), and combustible fuel. So would buying diesel or propane or natural gas compressors subsidize the gap in air compression needs to run all the snow logic guns at full blast? Can the mountain rent them short term to get the slopes filled with early season snow? It has got to be less expensive than buying or building out new compressor stations. It would seem that this is the prudent course considering the investment in the new snow logic guns. While I like to see the fan guns churning out snowstorms, I think if the mountain invested in those, we would have both a water and electricity capacity issue. Perhaps it makes more sense financially and time efficiency to have the mountain solve the air capacity issue first.

  7. #37
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    From my perspective, all of the caring well thought out remarks about the snow making issues early this season are pure educated speculations based upon rumors, observations & a good bit of though & lots of frustration. No doubt, December (& November) has been warmer than ever per all weather reporting pundits/statistics. And, of course, the combination of warm weather conditions and the existing snow making system are not making early season skiing at SB anything to write home about, or to brag about to our many skiing/rising friends and family who enjoy our favorite winter sport at other NE mountains.

    Maybe now might be the time for us to ask Win to give us all a report on the issues that mountain ops have faced this season with the snow making system itself, including the new Snow Logic guns and what can be done or is being done to counteract/overcome the obvious problems. After all, we are all season pass holders and are really akin to annually renewing public investors in a privately held company. We do not ever expect anything back for our seasonal investments, other than the best snow conditions that SB is capable of giving us. And, I think that all of the comments here show the passion that all have for the winter and for Sugarbush and full well understand that the weather is the weather and that there can be no natural snow guarantees. I know that Win and his entire team have the same passion, but what is really going on with the snow making issues this season and are there any immediate fixes planned or being put into place to improve the man made snow product other than waiting for steady colder temperatures and/or the snow gods?
    Stan

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  8. #38
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    No Stan. My comments are not speculation. I have done the reseach, lived in a house with snowmakers for years, did a small stint as a snowmaker and stand by my comments:
    - We do not have the capacity to make enough air to blow more than one trail at a time when temps are in the 20's (Meaning one route top to bottom)
    - The piping system we have it aging, leaking and in need of replacement as it breaks quite frequently.
    - Replacing regular guns with the new fangled guns does not make more or better quality snow. Just the same quality sometimes and possibly less quantity. We will see.

    That is all I have ever said.

    I am on the band wagon now. Pray for snow!!!! or god help us.
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  9. #39
    [
    Air compressors can work on electricity (we know that is restricted by GMP, especially at holiday time), and combustible fuel. So would buying diesel or propane or natural gas compressors subsidize the gap in air compression needs to run all the snow logic guns at full blast? Can the mountain rent them short term to get the slopes filled with early season snow? It has got to be less expensive than buying or building out new compressor stations. It would seem that this is the prudent course considering the investment in the new snow logic guns. While I like to see the fan guns churning out snowstorms, I think if the mountain invested in those, we would have both a water and electricity capacity issue. Perhaps it makes more sense financially and time efficiency to have the mountain solve the air capacity issue first.[/QUOTE]

    If you were around when ASC owned the resort, you'll remember the little village of compresssors during the early season parked in the maintenance shed lot at the bottom of Bravo. They also claimed to have a computerized sensor system to monitor temps and humidity a different elevations so they could change the water/air mix as needed. They made a lot more snow back then. So yes, it can be done, it has been done. As we know, it's a business decision. I guess the decision is that the investment would not meaningfully increase early season ski revenue. This time of year, no matter how much snow, the vast majority of skiers are passholders. Whether we're skiing on 1 trail (6? Please) or 10, are mountain biking or buying tickets at Kton, they've already got our money.


  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Brew Ski View Post
    OK Howie, now were getting somewhere. We agree it isn't a temperature problem but an air, water or power capacity issue. I agree that if the new snow logic guns require more compressed air at warmer temps to produce snow at higher volume settings, and there is only air capacity for running them at lowest settings, the we are talking about a compressed air capacity issue. Good progress, lets focus on that. The word was that the compressors has been worked on this past summer to "get them back into shape" for this coming winter. The tuned up compressors should be performing "better" and therefore provide more air capacity than in previous seasons. But as we all see, we just are not getting enough air capacity to drive even highly more efficient snow logic guns. So it seems we still have a poor air compression system for what is needed to have early season skiing at our favorite mountain.

    Air compressors can work on electricity (we know that is restricted by GMP, especially at holiday time), and combustible fuel. So would buying diesel or propane or natural gas compressors subsidize the gap in air compression needs to run all the snow logic guns at full blast? Can the mountain rent them short term to get the slopes filled with early season snow? It has got to be less expensive than buying or building out new compressor stations. It would seem that this is the prudent course considering the investment in the new snow logic guns. While I like to see the fan guns churning out snowstorms, I think if the mountain invested in those, we would have both a water and electricity capacity issue. Perhaps it makes more sense financially and time efficiency to have the mountain solve the air capacity issue first.
    seems to me we are just back at square one. the only issue I have with what you stated above, is that we dont know, and have reason to believe to the contrary, that the new snow logic guns have been performing more efficiently. Win said these guns were expected to run at 5 cfm as opposed to 150 cfm for the low-e guns. If that were true, they should be able to run 30 snow logic guns for every low e gun (not to mention the older guns) they take off line. clearly we havent seen that kind of increased production and my understanding is that's because the new snow logic guns arent running at 5cfm. For all we know, they are using as much as, or even more air than the older guns. temperatures factor into this because it may be that the snow logic guns can indeed perform more efficiently only at lower temperatures which have been hard to come by so far this season.

  11. #41
    6 trails is a bit egregious. Lower Downspout? I had no idea it existed. Lower Jester? I think only 10% of the trail is open. There should be a rule that greater than 50% of a trail needs to be open (i.e. more open than closed) to label it an open trail. I'm surprised we don't say Upper Organgrinder is open because people coming down from Allyn sometimes ski up hill a bit at the intersection and take a rest before continuing on. OK now I'm just being a dick, but come on. I was watching some of the videos above the snow report. "Amazing conditions" "Can't believe how good it is for early December"? Really. You should have to list if someone is a paid actor.

    I like the idea of diesel compressors. It should get rid of the argument of electricity issues though with the price of diesel I have no idea if it makes it more costly and (I can now think of at least 4 people who are going to bust my balls about ME saying this when I see them) with an effort to be more green on fuel consumption would this be a step back and is that a concern for the mountain's overall initiatives? Personally when it comes to skiing I throw that hippie BS out the window. Off season I encourage it, but if hooking a monkey's testicles up to a car battery would get me more snow I have two things to say. Red is positive and black is negative,. Have at it.

    On a serious note it would be nice to have maybe some diesel generators to either rent or buy. I'm curious the reasoning behind not going with this route. Is it strictly cost prohibitive? We're not far from Christmas week now and I'm not seeing a ton or progress. I'm sure SB is hoping that with the opening of Mt Ellen it will quiet some of the crowd, but while it will be nice to ski North it does not solve the snow making issue which will continue to creep up.

    We are not asking to be first open. I have no problem spending some money and heading to Killington for the first week or two of skiing. That's fine. As someone pointed out it's mostly passholders and a few of us day tickets. The Friday after Thanksgiving there were a lot of day tickets there and last Sunday the place was packed with day passes. It is no longer a "crazy early season obsessed" crowd. It's normal people looking to ski good terrain and it effects the whole valley. A friend of mine bought new skis this year. Where did he buy them? Killington. Why because where is he going to demo them? Downspout and Jester? Otherwise he probably would have bought them at Alpine Options. Food. Beverages. Not just SB revenue but businesses in the Valley. Where else am I going to get my $19 egg sandwich than at the Warren store where I am apparently paying by the hour.

    A holiday week is on it's way and we have 1 trail (ONE TRAIL) open. Mt Ellen will expand the terrain for sure. It's enough to pull me up and away form Killington just to see. But it's still weak this time of year compared to similar mountains.

  12. #42

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Howie, Sunday River has 18 trails and is promising another 12 by Christmas. Elevation there is less than 3000. They are posting that they have had 34 snowmaking days. Sounds like plenty of cold to me. You are dead wrong if you don't think there has not been cold enough temps. Also Stowe's skiing is excellent right now. I have a guy in my office that is a season pass holder and has skiied 6 day so far there. His reports are accurate. Stop drinking the coolaid
    and for the record, I looked at Stowe's trail report. your coworkers winter wonderland has a whopping 14 trails open including a few listed as "partially open". and sure that looks better than SB's 6, but when mt ellen opens, the trail count will be virtually the same. so what's wrong with their snow making system?

  14. #44
    Stowe is actually listing 15 trails. They've had more terrain open longer than we have. We don't get Mt Ellen open until tomorrow when we start catching up a bit. We only really have ONE trail open. I'm sure Stowe's 15 boils down to less as well. You can't really look at trail count. You have to look at acreage. When I went to Killington last week with only 23 trails open I wasn't expecting as much as I got. Skylark is a long trail. That's some serious vertical top to bottom. It is an Upper and Lower situation but combined as two trails is a lot. Headwall is also open and is one trail the whole length of the lift. That's 1200 vertical of actual skiing. Not a run out.

    Also I'm glad to see Stowe take the high road here and list trails as partially open. I may be wrong, and if so I apologize, but can you ski all of Lower Jester? Was the bottom part of Upper Organgrinder or Domino Chutes opened up to connect the top of Lower Jester and snow blown on that as well? If so then my bad. If not then well. That' a "fully" open trail?

  15. #45
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    I really do not want to get into the "who has what trails open" debate. But, I skied Lord top to bottom at Stowe on Wednesday, November 23rd and it was and is a great long ride and has been open non stop since. Trail number counts at Stowe, SB or anywhere are fairly inconsequential to me. What is open and skiable is most important.
    Last edited by gostan; 12-15-2011 at 10:26 AM.
    Stan

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