LP development

**gostan** · 04-04-2012, 05:04 PM

Folks, we are probably over analyzing hotel or hostel uses at Building E in the proposed future to be constructed still in the process of being permitted Rice Brook project. The entire project is being permitted for the currently expected and designed units/uses. Whatever is permitted is really size, design and total end number users and square footage based and will change depending upon what sells and how the whole thing shakes out over the next few years. I suspect that use of the word hostel was intentional and not unintentional. Looks good and sounds good, doesn't it. I am sure that the intent now is to have a section of 30 rooms of some type dedicated to nightly rentals. It would not be to difficult down the road to redesign and apply for a minor modification of permits to change/redesign these proposed 30 nightly rooms to some type of condos, etc., or other uses especially if the demographics change and the demand for something else changes. I am involved in development projects where over 55 restricted residential units are changed to open market non-age restricted units; where office uses are being changed to residential rentals and where commercial rental units are converted to condominium uses. And let us not talk about projects or portions of projects that were approved but have not or may not ever be constructed. Running a ski mountain is daunting enough and is not for the hoi polloi or meek of heart and dollars and neither is real estate development at the ski mountain. Although, if some of these new residential units being developed came with some non-transferable life time ski passes for the original purchasers, the project might be pre-sold and built out a heck of a lot faster. Then we could move on to improve snow making and lift improvements in my lifetime.

**Tin Woodsman** · 04-04-2012, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by gostan

Folks, we are probably over analyzing......

Well, that IS what we do here, after all, especialy when there's no snow left to distract us.

Going to be a long summer.

**Hawk** · 04-05-2012, 06:29 AM

A developer friend of mine has always told me this. More often than not Skiing and realestate developlement are a bad combination. There are many cases were a group of investers have bought an area with the master plan that they will make it all work with realestate. Sugarloaf in th 70's is a good example and we all know how it turned out for Mr. Otten when he turned away from his bread and butter. I think that SV has a good handle on how they are approching it and managing the risk. It has always been there plan to develope the base into something special that looks and feels VT while delivering a product that sells. I just hope that the wheels don't fall off because of bad ecconomic times or bad winters or a combination of the two. As always, I worry about the infrastructure and the lack of focus on upgrading the existing. We have a bunch of aging lifts and a snowmaking system that doesn't really cut the mustard. These are the things that most of the skiers that visit will remember. I would bet most of you on here might disagree but we are not the majority of the people who visit. It is the people who buy the daily or weekly tickets that really count. That is what Les originally understood and catered to. That is how he grew so fast. Once the attention turned to realestate and growth it all went down hill.

**JayBird** · 04-05-2012, 08:43 AM

MRV enjoys an image, reputation and allure that was established long before SR and Les Otten were on the map. Yes, conflicts can and do develop between the interests of resort Real Estate and mountain infrastructure if the ownership Property Co is apart from Mountain Operations. The developing issues in Park City between PWDR and Tallisker illustrate that pretty clearly. That's a scenario with HUGE implications for the entire state of Utah. Development at Sugarbush does appear to be well planned and under good leadership control and oversight. The local community recognizes the economic impact of the resort, and supports the management by and large on development decisions that are consistent with an overall vision for this Valley. Yes, lift operations and snowmaking infrastructure are of concern to many. Those limitations are well-known to folks far and wide. Despite those challenges, people come and smiles fill their faces. Please, let's not lose sight of the fact that Irene and a serious winter weather anomaly were the main players in a shortened season. The Vibe here is the thing that sustains us.

**djd66** · 04-05-2012, 09:04 AM

[QUOTE=Hawk;115724We have a bunch of aging lifts and a snowmaking system that doesn't really cut the mustard. These are the things that most of the skiers that visit will remember. [/QUOTE]

Yep, I would disagree with your statement. The average skier (say a family who skis a couple times per year) would notice the new base lodge, new hotel + new school house + new farm house,.. and appreciate it. In the future, these same families would very much notice one contiguous village atmosphere - with lots of bars, restaurants + shopping all within walking distance. That's what families like when they go on vacation. As far as a "bunch of aging lifts" I can only think of one that may need to be replaced (VHD) + unless you put in a HSQ or HStriple - replacing it will not get you much. My feeling is that any development will only help the long term financial strength of the mountain.

**HowieT2** · 04-05-2012, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Hawk

A developer friend of mine has always told me this. More often than not Skiing and realestate developlement are a bad combination. There are many cases were a group of investers have bought an area with the master plan that they will make it all work with realestate. Sugarloaf in th 70's is a good example and we all know how it turned out for Mr. Otten when he turned away from his bread and butter. I think that SV has a good handle on how they are approching it and managing the risk. It has always been there plan to develope the base into something special that looks and feels VT while delivering a product that sells. I just hope that the wheels don't fall off because of bad ecconomic times or bad winters or a combination of the two. As always, I worry about the infrastructure and the lack of focus on upgrading the existing. We have a bunch of aging lifts and a snowmaking system that doesn't really cut the mustard. These are the things that most of the skiers that visit will remember. I would bet most of you on here might disagree but we are not the majority of the people who visit. It is the people who buy the daily or weekly tickets that really count. That is what Les originally understood and catered to. That is how he grew so fast. Once the attention turned to realestate and growth it all went down hill.

you keep harping on the snowmaking but other than getting the party started early in the season, did you really have any complaints? the mtn was the first and only mtn 100% open for most of the season.
it's not like they havent been investing in upgrading the snowmaking system consistently year in and year out. IMHO, they have an early season, mild weather snowmaking capacity issue which if they choose to address can be accomplished with a phalanx of fan guns for the lower elevations.

As for lifts, they are all in good shape except for the VH double which is overdue for replacement and realignment. I think they are somewhat of a pickle with that, since they know the replacement should go down to the base but they have the building in the way and they need that building because the GH cafeteria and CRP arent big enough.
heck, even the nrx seems to have gotten a new lease on life. from my perspective, mechanical lift issues have improved dramatically over the past two seasons.

the only other infrastructure issue I can think of is the cafeteria and bar capacity which of course, brings us back to the VH lift issue. dont see how this can be addressed at the base but perhaps a new mid mtn lodge, either at the top of the super bravo or the gatehouse.

**HowieT2** · 04-05-2012, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by djd66

Yep, I would disagree with your statement. The average skier (say a family who skis a couple times per year) would notice the new base lodge, new hotel + new school house + new farm house,.. and appreciate it. In the future, these same families would very much notice one contiguous village atmosphere - with lots of bars, restaurants + shopping all within walking distance. That's what families like when they go on vacation. As far as a "bunch of aging lifts" I can only think of one that may need to be replaced (VHD) + unless you put in a HSQ or HStriple - replacing it will not get you much. My feeling is that any development will only help the long term financial strength of the mountain.

agree except that I dont think the VHD needs to be replaced with a High speed anything. as per prior discussions, it will be a fixed grip triple which will be significantly faster than the current lift and have a lot more uphill capacity. and I think it would add significantly to the mtn. this past presidents weekend, the superbravo went down in the morning just as the vacation skiers were getting to the mtn. what resulted was a nightmare traffic jam on gatehouse and then north lynx. having another alternative lift from the base is essential in these situations and would relieve traffic at the bravo at normally heavy times. not to mention eliminating the hazardous state of the VHD terminus, which in and of itself, is reason enough to replace the lift.

**Jacksun** · 04-05-2012, 12:26 PM

Can't resist sharing my outstanding idea for replacing the existing VH double. New chair that extends down through the building, with a bullwheel inside for a turn, so that it comes out at a different angle and loads somewhere down near the current Blazer drop off/pick up zone. In addition, there would be a midstation load/unload inside, so that people could bring their backbacks and stuff up to VH, unload, leave their stuff there, then get back on the lift from there. Could have downloading from there, too for those folks not skiing, but hanging out. All this takes place inside the structure somehow. I don't care if the lift is another double or triple, I think having lift access to the building as well as the alternative to Bravo would relieve some pressure on Gatehouse at lunchtime, and relieve pressure on Bravo all the time.

No laughing, it would be really cool!

**Hawk** · 04-05-2012, 12:48 PM

Nope I disagree with both of you. Harping? No just pointing out an obvious need. I think that your perception of good snowmaking skewed. I skied a ridiculous amount of rock hard icy mogul days this year, more this year than ever. I have also skied were they make good snow and know what it is all about. It certainly was not here. The 20 or so guests that came up to visit me had the same opinion. If you only really ski here then how can you have an opinion on the comparison? We were not 100% open because of the snowmaking by any extent so what does that have to do with this comparison?
Also lifts age and they need constant maintenance. Our lifts breakdown alot and usually on peak holidays. This happen this year and guess when…. Yup, when my guests came. I know this happens everywhere but I think it is of concern if you put it off in lieu of other things. Look I am just not the peace-love-Joy rosy colored glasses type that just thinks it is all fine. I call it like I see it and in this case, my views are based on what I saw, heard and experienced here and at other places. Win and crew have done and will do a nice job for this ski area. People work hard on it and I certainly appreciate all the efforts. I just would hate for them to overlook the other things that also count a lot. Even if they or you don't see it that way. As you were!

**Hawk** · 04-05-2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jacksun

Can't resist sharing my outstanding idea for replacing the existing VH double. New chair that extends down through the building, with a bullwheel inside for a turn, so that it comes out at a different angle and loads somewhere down near the current Blazer drop off/pick up zone. In addition, there would be a midstation load/unload inside, so that people could bring their backbacks and stuff up to VH, unload, leave their stuff there, then get back on the lift from there. Could have downloading from there, too for those folks not skiing, but hanging out. All this takes place inside the structure somehow. I don't care if the lift is another double or triple, I think having lift access to the building as well as the alternative to Bravo would relieve some pressure on Gatehouse at lunchtime, and relieve pressure on Bravo all the time.

No laughing, it would be really cool!

I like this idea.

**southvillager** · 04-05-2012, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jacksun

Can't resist sharing my outstanding idea for replacing the existing VH double. New chair that extends down through the building, with a bullwheel inside for a turn, so that it comes out at a different angle and loads somewhere down near the current Blazer drop off/pick up zone. In addition, there would be a midstation load/unload inside, so that people could bring their backbacks and stuff up to VH, unload, leave their stuff there, then get back on the lift from there. Could have downloading from there, too for those folks not skiing, but hanging out. All this takes place inside the structure somehow. I don't care if the lift is another double or triple, I think having lift access to the building as well as the alternative to Bravo would relieve some pressure on Gatehouse at lunchtime, and relieve pressure on Bravo all the time.

No laughing, it would be really cool!

If I remember correctly, for one or two years they ran a magic carpet up that slope so you could get to the Valley House a bit more easily. And way back there used to be a triple up the left side of Spring Fling, which was cool for early season laps on man made snow. And they would pile it up on Spring Fling for spring skiing. It was a pretty good set up. I think they moved the triple to North Lynx to replace an old Poma.

**HowieT2** · 04-05-2012, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Hawk

Nope I disagree with both of you. Harping? No just pointing out an obvious need. I think that your perception of good snowmaking skewed. I skied a ridiculous amount of rock hard icy mogul days this year, more this year than ever. I have also skied were they make good snow and know what it is all about. It certainly was not here. The 20 or so guests that came up to visit me had the same opinion. If you only really ski here then how can you have an opinion on the comparison? We were not 100% open because of the snowmaking by any extent so what does that have to do with this comparison?
Also lifts age and they need constant maintenance. Our lifts breakdown alot and usually on peak holidays. This happen this year and guess when…. Yup, when my guests came. I know this happens everywhere but I think it is of concern if you put it off in lieu of other things. Look I am just not the peace-love-Joy rosy colored glasses type that just thinks it is all fine. I call it like I see it and in this case, my views are based on what I saw, heard and experienced here and at other places. Win and crew have done and will do a nice job for this ski area. People work hard on it and I certainly appreciate all the efforts. I just would hate for them to overlook the other things that also count a lot. Even if they or you don't see it that way. As you were!

Im not looking to argue with you about the quality of the man made snow. If you say its not good, ill take your word for it, because i dont claim to be an expert. i didnt ski icy moguls as i was avoiding them. But where i skied was good not necessarily due to the snowmaking but because we had fresh powder every weekend from mid january through early march.
But you are wrong about the lifts. Other than when the bravo went down presidents day weekend, i dont recall any lift issues. Im sure, Win has the stats to back this up.

More importantly, im thinking of going up next weekend for mtn biking. Interested?

Happy holiday everyone.

**HowieT2** · 04-05-2012, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by southvillager

If I remember correctly, for one or two years they ran a magic carpet up that slope so you could get to the Valley House a bit more easily. And way back there used to be a triple up the left side of Spring Fling, which was cool for early season laps on man made snow. And they would pile it up on Spring Fling for spring skiing. It was a pretty good set up. I think they moved the triple to North Lynx to replace an old Poma.

I remember the magic carpet there.
The spring fling triple was taken down around 2000 i think, but the north lynx used to be the sugar bravo.

Having the lift go through a building would definitely be cool.