2011-2012 Annual Snowmaking Discussion Thread

**southvillager** · 12-01-2011, 03:28 PM

It is not uncommon for a ski area to need extra air in the fall.

Back in the '80s I sold construction equipment. My employer rented those large diesel 1300CFM compressors to the ski resorts. The compressors were about the size of a full sized van. Killington was a big customer. Also Whaleback, Wildcat, Okemo, little guys like Crotched, King Pine, lots of others. We did so much business, we had a mechanic on the road going from resort to resort doing routine maintenance. They take them around Oct 15, and turn them in sometime in January. I guess by January they had enough cover to fall back on the compressors that the resort owned. During the summer the same machines were used at southern ports to load or unload some type of commodity from large ships. Of course that was 25 years ago. But I would guess that a 2 or 3 month rental of a group of those portables would give a huge boost to the early season.

**Hrdstrt** · 12-01-2011, 03:44 PM

ugg. I'm not explaining myself well. I'm not saying they have reached any limit.

I'm saying that water will always be a limiting reagent on snommaking. Makes no difference whether you are talking about Sugarbush, Sunday River, Mad River or Vail.

Some here suggested that the new more efficient guns should be able to produce more snow. I suggest that they produce the same amount of snow, it just takes less energy to do so.

What I understood to be suggested next was that if the guns take up half the energy, why not just double up on the guns? (energy savings be damned, I want snow!). I suggest this:
On any given trail. They'll have x number of hydrants and guns to make snow. If you want to add a gun, you need to either add a hydrant or do a y pipe off the hydrant. At some point you'd get pressure drop on the water side.

I'm not saying that is what is at issue HERE.
Just trying to say there is a trade off somewhere, and there always has to be. If you double the guns, you have to double the rate you move the water at(or allow extra time).

Perhaps bashing was too extreme of a word. Would you accept Spirited internet based discussion?

**HowieT2** · 12-01-2011, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hrdstrt

ugg. I'm not explaining myself well. I'm not saying they have reached any limit.

I'm saying that water will always be a limiting reagent on snommaking. Makes no difference whether you are talking about Sugarbush, Sunday River, Mad River or Vail.

Some here suggested that the new more efficient guns should be able to produce more snow. I suggest that they produce the same amount of snow, it just takes less energy to do so.

What I understood to be suggested next was that if the guns take up half the energy, why not just double up on the guns? (energy savings be damned, I want snow!). I suggest this:
On any given trail. They'll have x number of hydrants and guns to make snow. If you want to add a gun, you need to either add a hydrant or do a y pipe off the hydrant. At some point you'd get pressure drop on the water side.

I'm not saying that is what is at issue HERE.
Just trying to say there is a trade off somewhere, and there always has to be. If you double the guns, you have to double the rate you move the water at(or allow extra time).

Perhaps bashing was too extreme of a word. Would you accept Spirited internet based discussion?

you are right. there is a finite amount of water being pumped so at some point that limits how much snow can be produced.

what i'll take right now is a fooking drink with some ice.

**atkinson** · 12-01-2011, 04:04 PM

No official word on the weekend yet, but things are looking good. The Rail Jam is a go.

MEllen and LP have separate snowmaking systems. Both draw power from GMP and these loads can be very significant, enough that they can shut us down when demand is high.

John

**gostan** · 12-01-2011, 04:46 PM

I wish we were using our shovels and skiing instead of wasting time on the internet.

**NorthLynx** · 12-01-2011, 05:54 PM

I took a walk around the base today and they had two Techno Alpin T40 fan guns setup and ready to go. I have only seen one in past seasons.

From what I have heard diesel compressors are not very economical due to higher fuel prices, environmental regulations, and that resorts that have
utilized them heavily are trying to move away from them. Sugarbush did bring in a couple of rental compressors a few seasons ago as a last resort.

**Hawk** · 12-02-2011, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by HowieT2

you are right. there is a finite amount of water being pumped so at some point that limits how much snow can be produced.

what i'll take right now is a fooking drink with some ice.

So here is my final word on this as I think we have beat this up enough. The fact is that right now they have ample water supply and pressure to blow snow out of more hydrants. This is not speculation it is truth. If you notice, they only blow one route at a time and to start the season and that is Jester-spout. The question that I always ask is why don't they blow 2 trails or a loop so that terrain would open quicker. Now I have stopped an ask the question on several different times to snow makers and the guy at the compresser house. The answer has always been the limiting factor is compressed air. You need to increase the air pressure as the temp goes up to create snow.

When I say they need to make more snow I was not implying that they need to blow it deaper or increase the amount of hydrants on one trial. I was implying that they need to increase the air production so that they can blow more snow on multiple trails or at higher temperature. If you look at Sunday River today, not only are they top to botton on several trails with good conditions, they are going to expand to more terrain for the weekend. Hell all I want is to be top to bottom on one trail. Not really asking alot am I?

**Treeskier** · 12-02-2011, 08:18 AM

I agree with you Hawk. Killington can blow ~200 guns at once. Sunday River I hear can now blow an upwards of 500 guns (now that they have also added low flow guns to their arsenal). We are lucky if we can blow ~ 50 guns at South (yes I now a second line at North but if it's not open its a mute subject that particular weekend). Stowe, Sugarloaf, Loon must be blowing more guns, multiple lines to have more open terrain. The ambiguity is also starting to effect our ski house bottom line. Members and guests are declining to come since the MT can not give a positive timely perdition of being open.

I hope the little snow predicted this afternoon blows up in our face and we get a substantial amount!

Out on to my deck to spur it on ```````:0

**gostan** · 12-02-2011, 09:00 AM

Since the mountain cannot even let us know if it will open.......I am staying home and will be playing golf on Sunday.......instead of yelling out "coming right", I will be practicing on my "fore". We can all talk about snow guns, compressors, water, etc., but the fact that I can ply golf this first weekend in December, in my backyard west of Boston, says it all.

**HowieT2** · 12-02-2011, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Treeskier

I agree with you Hawk. Killington can blow ~200 guns at once. Sunday River I hear can now blow an upwards of 500 guns (now that they have also added low flow guns to their arsenal). We are lucky if we can blow ~ 50 guns at South (yes I now a second line at North but if it's not open its a mute subject that particular weekend). Stowe, Sugarloaf, Loon must be blowing more guns, multiple lines to have more open terrain. The ambiguity is also starting to effect our ski house bottom line. Members and guests are declining to come since the MT can not give a positive timely perdition of being open.

I hope the little snow predicted this afternoon blows up in our face and we get a substantial amount!

Out on to my deck to spur it on ```````:0

FWIW- i read a post from someone from stowe who said they had 90 guns going simultaneously yesterday.

**HowieT2** · 12-02-2011, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by gostan

Since the mountain cannot even let us know if it will open.......I am staying home and will be playing golf on Sunday.......instead of yelling out "coming right", I will be practicing on my "fore". We can all talk about snow guns, compressors, water, etc., but the fact that I can ply golf this first weekend in December, in my backyard west of Boston, says it all.

same here. leaving the family home and I'm just going to drive up tomorrow to bring our gear and get set up.

**Hawk** · 12-02-2011, 09:39 AM

We had a killer Mountain Bike ride last night at Harold Parker SF. 6 of us and one guy had an Ipod and speaker set up on his back. Very fun to have music and race around on twisty single track. The thing was it was not cold at all. I cannot remember anytime that I went riding in December and didn't freeze my arse off. I have to admit, it has been good riding this year. JA would have loved this. I am also going to stay home I think and finish up on my Reno and ride. Then it's full time every weekend for the rest of the season.

**Hawk** · 12-02-2011, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by HowieT2

FWIW- i read a post from someone from stowe who said they had 90 guns going simultaneously yesterday.

SR is saying they had 350! How much air does that take.

**Tin Woodsman** · 12-02-2011, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by HowieT2

We are all speculating to some degree because we are not in a position to know the facts other than the bits and pieces that are fed to us. one thing we do know is that in the past, they had rented diesel compressors to supplement what they had, and still have now, so as to increase the capacity of the system to make snow. with more air, they were able to make more snow. Therefore, we know that the amount of snow they can make at any given time is limited by the amount of air, not water. furthermore, we know that last summer they invested in new water pipes, so if anything, they should be able to pump more water now than in the past.
We also know for a fact, that GMP has, at times of peak demand, limited the amount of electricity the resort can use. while this can be a limiting factor in recovering from a thaw by blasting snow on a weekend in mid january, it shouldnt be an issue now.

as an aside, I dont see where all this "bashing" is on this board. all i see is respectful disagreement. and where's Tin with all this snow making talk. Tin? Tin? Bueller Bueller?

What's more to say? Hawk is nailing it. Not sure what's so hard to understand.

They can pump more water than air. IOW, when they are maxed out on pumping air, they still have the capacity to pump some material additional amount of water, but have nowhere to put it absent additional air. If you decrease air usage per gun, you should therefore be able to re-allocate that "extra" air budget to other guns which would have otherwise been idle. there's no problem feeding water to those extra guns b/c you already had extra capacity to do so when you started, and there's been no change in the amount of water going to the guns you were already blowing.

As Hawk points out well, the rubber hits the road in two ways:

1) How many trails/loops they can blow at one time during good/normal conditions

2) How much snow they can produce during marginal temps - again, marginal temps create an air issue for snowmaking, not a water issue

In this light, it's disappointing to see the mtn so far behind even middling, low elevation/latitude competitors despite the much-trumpeted improvements and investments.

Not bashing here, but who amongst us, all of whom love SB or we wouldn't be on this site, isn't disappointed with the current status quo? Would you rather be skiing or bitching about not being able to do so?

I'll take door #1, Bob.