2011-2012 Annual Snowmaking Discussion Thread

[Hawk]

Hrdstrt is correct. Same amount of snow less air. But one would think that if they use less air per gun, you could run more guns. Right. We have not seen this yet.

[ducky]

The guns are blazing from top of Jester through Downspout. Let's hope they can keep them on.

[HowieT2]

The guns are blazing from top of Jester through Downspout. Let's hope they can keep them on.

and at the base of the superbravo, fwiw.

[ducky]

http://www.valleyreporter.com/index....ac=0&Itemid=42

[sglatham]

Beside cash (and temps), the two constraints on snowmaking are air and water. Will a more efficient snow gun make more snow? I believe not, it just uses less air but same amount of water = same amount of snow. BUT, if you have plenty of water, then a more efficient snow gun will allow an area to use more guns and this make more snow. So each gun makes same amount snow, but the mountain (assuming water supply) can make more snow.

This winter is looking to be much more challenging weatherwise. It will be interesting to see how aggressive Sugarbush gets at the season unfolds.

In the meantime, THINK SNOW and do those SNOW DANCES!!!!

[Hrdstrt]

But one would think that if they use less air per gun, you could run more guns. Right. We have not seen this yet.

No idea what the actual number is, so take this with a grain of salt.

Lets say you could put enough water up the hill to run 20 guns that were the old style. Wouldn't you still be only able to run 20 new style guns? In effect, the water becomes the limiting reagent. I don't think the water pipe is a big loop, so I think there is a finite amount of water in any one pipe on any one trail on the hill.
For example:
If you have 5 hydrants on the hill for one trail. Last year it used the old guns(1 per hydrant). This year the new guns are use, and since they 50% more efficient, you decide to put 2 guns per hydrant. Problem is you don't get any more water out of the hydrant, so even with two guns, you don't get any more snow.
So am I correct to think the higher up the hill you go, the more branches you have in the pipe, and therefore less access to water?

This is not meant as justification of use/non use. Just trying to understand the physics.

[Hawk]

I have been told many times that water is not the issue. They have plenty of capacity to pump water up the hill especially since they replaced the water main up the access road last year and replaced the pump at Heavens gate. Volume of air has always been the issue. They only have a few compressors and Win is not keen on bringing in desel powered complessors. There are also issues with the aging system leaking air. Win also has mentioned that they have restrictions on the amount of power consuption during peak times. I do not think this is an issue early season.

[HowieT2]

No idea what the actual number is, so take this with a grain of salt.

Lets say you could put enough water up the hill to run 20 guns that were the old style. Wouldn't you still be only able to run 20 new style guns? In effect, the water becomes the limiting reagent. I don't think the water pipe is a big loop, so I think there is a finite amount of water in any one pipe on any one trail on the hill.
For example:
If you have 5 hydrants on the hill for one trail. Last year it used the old guns(1 per hydrant). This year the new guns are use, and since they 50% more efficient, you decide to put 2 guns per hydrant. Problem is you don't get any more water out of the hydrant, so even with two guns, you don't get any more snow.
So am I correct to think the higher up the hill you go, the more branches you have in the pipe, and therefore less access to water?

This is not meant as justification of use/non use. Just trying to understand the physics.

you are correct assuming the system was operating at maximum water capacity, but as I said before, the speculation here in prior discussions, was that it was not. that if they added more air, either through more compressors (hence the rented diesel compressors of years past) or fan guns (on board compressors), they could increase capacity and make more snow at a given time.

[HowieT2]

I have been told many times that water is not the issue. They have plenty of capacity to pump water up the hill especially since they replaced the water main up the access road last year and replaced the pump at Heavens gate. Volume of air has always been the issue. They only have a few compressors and Win is not keen on bringing in desel powered complessors. There are also issues with the aging system leaking air. Win also has mentioned that they have restrictions on the amount of power consuption during peak times. I do not think this is an issue early season.

there is a power issue but that shouldnt be a limiting factor at night during the week early in the season. and again, the less air required the less electricity used, so if power was the limiting factor they should be able to make more snow with the same power usage.

[atkinson]

During the last round of snowmaking, Win said we were able to run more guns at once than ever before, due to the new efficiencies. I don't have raw numbers to compare, but the new guns have made a difference.

Somewhat unrelated, but exciting nonetheless, we are blowing snow at both Mount Ellen and Lincoln Peak currently.

John

[Hawk]

How is this weekend looking John? Any news on opening?

[gostan]

Isnt the snowmaking at ME separate from LP?

I assume that technically this must be correct. But I also assume that a splitting of resources is a splitting of resources. As a real estate developer, I know that when I have two projects going on simultaneously, one always gets more attention than the other. If an excavator breaks down, one of the projects has to suffer over the other one as every business must prioritize its' resources. Supporting GMVS is obviously important in the big picture and I do not mean to minimize this at all as an important priority. And, I had a few extremely enjoyable days and runs at Mount Ellen last season. Can't wait for Exterminator and some of the glades over at Mount Ellen to open.

[Hrdstrt]

I think you might be missing the point. I'm not suggesting one way or the other the state of mind of decisions. Nor am I suggesting any present limitation.

What I'm asking is this(completely imaginary numbers):
If the intake at the pond is sucking in water at a rate of 50 gallons per minute. All hydrants all the mountain are closed. Can you turn on one hydrant on downspout and expect 50 gallons per minute? My guess is no.
So you might be able to fill a 50 gallon barrel of water near the snow making pond in about a minute. However, one hydrant may not be able to handle that rate, so it flows 5 gallons per minute. You can still fill the barrel, it just takes ten minutes.
So my thought is that while there may not be a limit on the quantity of water, there has to be a limit on the rate.

My point is increasing air efficiency, does not always equate to more snow. While a better snow gun may result in more snow over time, it does not mean more snow instantly. While there may not be an overall water limit, there has to be a limit of water by time. Doubling the amount of guns in one area, will not help if the water infrastructure can't support it. At some point water has to be a limiting factor.

Not offering excuses. Just hoping to promote a little more content, rather than speculation based upon speculation. I rarely visit, as the bashing seems to be a sport here at times. Venting frustration is fine in my book, just hate to see bashing based on assumption and speculation.

[Hawk]

No they do not have a water issue. They have booster pumps on the hill. These boost the pressure and keep it consistent all over the hill. The pressure drop is minimal The amount of water and water pressure that they have can sustain more guns than they are currently using. The problem is with the air. Is that more clear?

[HowieT2]

I think you might be missing the point. I'm not suggesting one way or the other the state of mind of decisions. Nor am I suggesting any present limitation.

What I'm asking is this(completely imaginary numbers):
If the intake at the pond is sucking in water at a rate of 50 gallons per minute. All hydrants all the mountain are closed. Can you turn on one hydrant on downspout and expect 50 gallons per minute? My guess is no.
So you might be able to fill a 50 gallon barrel of water near the snow making pond in about a minute. However, one hydrant may not be able to handle that rate, so it flows 5 gallons per minute. You can still fill the barrel, it just takes ten minutes.
So my thought is that while there may not be a limit on the quantity of water, there has to be a limit on the rate.

My point is increasing air efficiency, does not always equate to more snow. While a better snow gun may result in more snow over time, it does not mean more snow instantly. While there may not be an overall water limit, there has to be a limit of water by time. Doubling the amount of guns in one area, will not help if the water infrastructure can't support it. At some point water has to be a limiting factor.

Not offering excuses. Just hoping to promote a little more content, rather than speculation based upon speculation. I rarely visit, as the bashing seems to be a sport here at times. Venting frustration is fine in my book, just hate to see bashing based on assumption and speculation.

We are all speculating to some degree because we are not in a position to know the facts other than the bits and pieces that are fed to us. one thing we do know is that in the past, they had rented diesel compressors to supplement what they had, and still have now, so as to increase the capacity of the system to make snow. with more air, they were able to make more snow. Therefore, we know that the amount of snow they can make at any given time is limited by the amount of air, not water. furthermore, we know that last summer they invested in new water pipes, so if anything, they should be able to pump more water now than in the past.
We also know for a fact, that GMP has, at times of peak demand, limited the amount of electricity the resort can use. while this can be a limiting factor in recovering from a thaw by blasting snow on a weekend in mid january, it shouldnt be an issue now.

as an aside, I dont see where all this "bashing" is on this board. all i see is respectful disagreement. and where's Tin with all this snow making talk. Tin? Tin? Bueller Bueller?