http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe_repo...287592cba.html
Anyone here anything reliable? I guess for Sugarbush this would mean cheeper masses since Epic passes are cheeper than Stowe's passes.
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http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe_repo...287592cba.html
Anyone here anything reliable? I guess for Sugarbush this would mean cheeper masses since Epic passes are cheeper than Stowe's passes.
Benski is suggesting that vail would make Stowe part of their epic pass which is around $800 at their early rate. By doing that he's saying the significant drop in stowe's pass price by virtue of being on epic would force sugarbush to lower their prices to compete. I don't personally agree with that line of thought.
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Based on the precedent set by the young thirties pass Sugarbush tries to undercut Stowes price.
http://forums.skimrv.com/showthread....hank-you-Stowe!
Vastly different dynamics. The early 30s pass was for a smaller subset of skiers due to the narrow age range. It probably also had the benefit of targeting an age range that was "on the fence" about whether to buy a pass so offering the lower price to that age range could drive more sales and offset the discounted price. Trying to "undercut" Stowe if Vail bought them and they were added to the Epic pass is a whole different ballgame. Now you're talking about a huge age range (36-64) to target and attempting to even compete with the Epic pass could result in too much of a revenue loss to make sense. There are many people that would not jump ship to Stowe suddenly even if the price dropped to Epic pass levels.
Still a lot of ifs here as the whole deal is still just a rumor for now.
I agree with both of you to a point...i mean the young 30s pass showed Stowe's power in the market. I had never heard of a resort dropping their rates and refunding people because of a move by another ski area.. that's unprecedented. I worked with Ski Vermont a few winters ago and this discussion came up a bit. a lot of the ski resorts in the state bank on Stowe's passes being so high. They can then charge more but still be cheaper...regardless of which place you like more the common notion is that stowe is up there. I wouldn't under estimate the change in revenues to other ski areas.
I do think an $800 passto Stowewould be a game changer in the state. Sugarbush would become the most expensive pass in Vermont.
Perhaps...but at the same time if you look out west you'll see plenty of non-Vail resorts that don't attempt to compete with Epic. (There was even a section on the very topic of competing with Vail on pricing in the new Ski, Inc book written by Chris Diamond). I'm not saying it won't have some impact, but I think more likely it would simply either slow any increase from Sugarbush or "best case" (for us) is cause a slight drop in prices. I think some people think other resorts like SB would try to directly compete with the Epic pass pricing and I think that's where people are wrong. Then again, I have no numbers at all to back any of my theories up and am just going with my gut instincts. Would SB want to be known as the most expensive pass in the state? I don't know.
By and large I would think that it would have some minor impact from the frugal people that would jump ship for any savings. That I think is a small minority. But for most like me and my friends who own a place here, love the community of the valley, love skiing with friends here and really enjoy the uniqueness of Sugarbush, there is no way we would ever change to that place. In the end, we are only speculating that they would change the whole price structure to the Epic pass. And who's to say that they would change the day ticket price. Until that happens I will never go there except for then I use my SkiVT 3 or 5 pack. It will be interesting to see.
One other thought. If you take the Epic Pass option and decide to switch to Stowe where would you stay? If you do a quick check of Stowe real estate you will find that prices are out of control up there for either buying or renting. That was the big rub with me 15 - 20 years ago when we started looking and it is much higher now.
Agree Hawk. Sugarbush is my "home" and I would not leave either no matter what Stowe charged for their pass.
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There are always tons of rumors in the ski industry. Who knows if this is true but it is a logical choice for Vail. Rob Katz is an aggressive and capable CEO who wants 1 million Epic passholdes. We would obviously watch this with great interest and while it would threaten us to some degree, I also think it would afford us a number of opportunities. The ski industry is cons\olidating but I strongly believe their will continue to a spot for locally owned and managed resorts like Smuugs and Sugarbush and unique experiences like our neighbor MRG.
Several movers and shakers at John Egan's Skier Hall of Fame indicated that it looks very possible. Things to ponder.
I have to imagine this would cause a significant impact on Skiing in the state. The VERY early season pricing for an adult pass at the Bush is pretty high. And the price for purchase just before the season starts is ludicrous for most people.
I think the Epic pass banks on a lot of purchasers not using it to the fullest extent, or spending a lot at the resort on gear, beer and food. Sugarbush is my home, and I'm willing to pay a bit more to "be local" so to speak. However, I think the Epic pass, and Stowe, have a way of setting the market.
And lodging...lodging is a big part of Vail's revenue stream from what I've heard. They count on people needing to travel to their resorts. But yes, I also wouldn't be surprised if the average Epic pass holder uses it much less days overall than your average local east coast pass holder. I know people that buy Epic passes simply to use it for one or two week-long trips out west. You're saving substantial money off the walk-up ticket rates, but not using the pass a huge number of days in that scenario.
Well the deal is done... http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vail-r...130000462.html
$50 Million, however the purchase does NOT include Stowe's lodging and much of their real estate holdings. My take is Vail did a deal for Stowe's operations only more as a way to drive higher Epic pass sales and drive more people to their western resorts. The lack of purchasing the real estate and lodging components of Stowe is a bit of a surprise.
I hear there are rumblings of a alternative to the Epic pass in the wind...... Things they are a changing.
I am going to guess the max pass.They could use a new eat coast mountain since They will loose Stowe and Whistler. Here is this years offer:
2 days at AltaSnowbird
2 days at Aspen Snowmass
2 days at Jackson Hole
2 days at Mammoth
2 days at Revelstoke
2 days at Ski Banff/Lake Louise/Sunshine
2 days at Ski Queenstown/Coronet Peak/The Remarkables
2 days at Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows
2 days at Stowe
2 days at Sun Valley
2 days at Taos
2 days at Telluride
2 days at Thredbo
2 days at Whistler Blackcomb
You also get 50% off on additional days.
Benski, isn't that the Mountain Collective pass and not the Max Pass? The Max Pass is the one Killington participates in (and it gives 5 days at all participating resorts plus is available as an add-on to a full pass from those resorts).
DONE DEAL!
Vail entered into an agreement to buy Stowe today, and will add Stowe to its $809 EPIC PASS next year. Unlimited skiing for $809 and it also gets you access to all their other resorts.
Suddenly Sugarbush passes are looking really expensive. MAX pass also putting price pressure on SB.
It could be that cheap, although I would expect a slight increase (say maybe in the 825-850 range). Vail can sell epic for cheap since they do such tremendous volume. Good luck with the crowds at Stowe though with the epic pass. Weekends will be insane and not fun to ski.
As for sugarbush looking expensive, last year the early price for a full adult unlimited pass was only $10 more than K's early price for their full adult pass. And they were even cheaper than some other resorts in southern Vermont.
Other costs need to be considered too beyond just the pass. For seasonal renters, Stowe may cost them more than the mrv for example.
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Win just sent out an email discussing the purchase. I found this line interesting, "Personally, I like to think that our terrain is the Eastern equivalent of mountains like Alta, Jackson Hole, Aspen Highlands, Telluride and Squaw, where I have skied in recent years." All the mountains mentioned are on the Mountain Collective, which to me is a suggestion Sugarbush is going to replace Stowe in the pass. At the very least Win sees that as logical.
They could join Mountain Collective, but it wouldn't do anything for me as an SB passholder already. Unless I'm missing something, there's 0 benefit to buying Mountain Collective for an existing passholder unless I intend to go to several of the resorts out west (in which case the benefit would be the same whether I'm an SB passholder or not...wouldn't it?)
Unless it is free or cheep with a full pass to one of the mountain in the Mountain Collective. I don't know how the Mountain Collective price is structured but Bolton has something similar that is free with there pass. http://www.boltonvalley.com/tickets-...s/Freedom-Pass
From everything I remember reading on Mountain Collective, there's no discounts for passholders. It is simply everyone that wants Mountain Collective pays the same price ($379 was last year's price) whether you are a passholder at one of the participating resorts or not. If you plan to visit at least 2 of the resorts out west that are on that pass for at least 2 days each, then it definitely is worth it. There simply is no benefit to an SB pass holder to SB joining that pass.
I'm not saying there wouldn't be a benefit to SB. As once Stowe leaves that pass the people that are buying that pass could definitely take advantage of SB being on it if they are not SB passholders. Realistically it is more of a benefit to non-SB passholders as it would entice them to visit the resort.
Could have mentioned a couple of others like Deer Valley that has some great terrain off Lady Morgan and in the Empire Bowl. They are all alone and by all reports doing very well next to Vail's Park City and Canyon's. Like them we are going to continue focusing on the quality of the experience here. I think a lot will appreciate that.
Win, I'm a 4 year season pass holder who comes back for none of the reasons you included in your email. I am one of SB's biggest defenders on this forum, but that email had a lot of poor arguments for why SB should be a skier's mountain of choice.
Comparing SB to ANY west coast mountain, like you did in your email, is comparing apples to tiny oranges. SB will never have the amount of vert and the quality of snow the western mountains have. Not to mention the elevation of the western mountains allows for improved snow totals and more treeless terrain than SB. People who come to SB ski the East because we live and work here. If I could get my job and move mine and my wife's family out to Utah, CO, or WY tomorrow, you bet damn well I would do that.
For some reason, you use DV as an example of a successful independent mountain to compare SB to. I agree with your statement that DV does very well by itself, but for reasons that completely different from what SB offers. The snow in Utah is known to be some of the highest quality in the world. VT has....ice. Empire is a nice area of DV and I had no problem dropping in off the cornice without any fresh snow since you can still get an edge in. Dropping in with the ice we get in VT? No thank you. You don't see people dropping of Church Rocks after a rain/freeze cycle for a reason.
DV is also INCREDIBLY expensive...$128 per day! They also limit the amount of tickets they sell each day to keep lift lines down. I don't think I waited more than 5 minutes at DV when I visited. Plus, the people who own property at DV are all tied to Hollywood somehow because of Sundance. The people who ski at DV are casual skiers who want to wear fur on the mountain, take two runs on the bunny hill then go drink martinis in Stein’s Lodge. SB skiers celebrate 4 inches of snow like Christmas, will ski in an ice storm, put up with wind holds at HG and then go to CRP and order a Naragansett in a can. I really don't think it is appropriate to compare SB to DV.
Unless SB is going to magically produce Utah powder, host a major international film festival, jack up prices to $120+ per day and limit the amount of tickets sold, Stowe on the Epic pass is going to lead to some drop in skier ship at SB. The drop will be in the casual skier who does 2 or 3 ski weekends per year, skiing 5 runs then going to the bar at 1pm. Unfortunately, these people tend to spend the most money at the mountain and generate more revenue than the 25+ day pass holder who drinks the cheap beers and packs a PB&J sandwich to eat on the lift.
If SB is going to continue to demand 1700 for a season pass, the mountain better be offering something better than 3 roads in (that still filter to ONE road) and the F lot.
I think you missed Win's point. He said "Eastern equivalent" not "equivalent". There's a big difference. They are simply successful, independent resorts with great terrain. For the east, SB is absolutely the same thing.
I don't see the "casual skier who does 5 runs and heads to the bar" as the typical Sugarbush passholder/skier. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt there will be people that jump ship to Epic, I just don't think it will be the mass exodus that I'm hearing some people predict. I will admit though that I do fall in that "25+ day pass holder" category that tends to not spend much other money at the mountain (sorry Win!). I have a few drinks at Wunderbar here and there. I eat lunch on mountain once in a blue moon. Normally I head over to Sugarbush village though to grab something at Pizza Soul or Mutha Stuffers for lunch.Quote:
Unless SB is going to magically produce Utah powder, host a major international film festival, jack up prices to $120+ per day and limit the amount of tickets sold, Stowe on the Epic pass is going to lead to some drop in skier ship at SB. The drop will be in the casual skier who does 2 or 3 ski weekends per year, skiing 5 runs then going to the bar at 1pm. Unfortunately, these people tend to spend the most money at the mountain and generate more revenue than the 25+ day pass holder who drinks the cheap beers and packs a PB&J sandwich to eat on the lift.
For the casual skier, I'd argue those are more the people that buy things like the Quad pack. Are people going to dump the Quad pack in favor of Epic? Hard to say but I don't think a lot of those people would.
Do a lot of people really pay the full 1700 price? To me the early purchase price is the only one that matters for comparisons with other resorts. $1149 is decently reasonable (or at least in line with quite a few other resorts in VT)Quote:
If SB is going to continue to demand 1700 for a season pass, the mountain better be offering something better than 3 roads in (that still filter to ONE road) and the F lot.
As I said in other posts here in on AZ that it is going to sting a little bit. There are quite a few families out there that will do a few trips up north and then a trip out west each season. I would have to think this is Vail's core Demographic for the east. If they can steal day tickets away from other mountains and secure the dollars for Vail. Then its a big win for Vail. Instead of those families taking a weekend at Sugarbush then another at Stratton, those families would put there all there dollars into the Vail product.
As far as season pass holders, SB will loose some of those to Stowe based on price point along. I do not see SB season passes staying the same or increasing for the 17/18 season. Also all resorts and mostly Vermont will loose day ticket sales.
Don't get me wrong I think Sugarbush is the best mtn in the east, but it always comes down to price for most consumers. You could have the best product in the world but if you are twice as much as your competitor, consumers won't care.
Very few do. I learned a long time ago that one can not be all things to all people. I believe that Vail coming East will be good for Stowe and good for us and some others. That's called a "Win-Win". 😀 We are not a public company so do not have to report quarterly earnings and meet growth expectations. I am happy to have the visits we have this year and sell a few more craft beers and grilled cheese at Walt's.
Ps: our adult 7 for families has kids ski free if under 12 and is one of only 26 pass options.
Vail East (Stowe) is going to steal a lot of business with their Epic pass. MAX pass will continue to poach the skiers uncommitted to a single mountain.
Why would SB sell a full-up pass for $1,779 if, as Win says, very few pay it? Seems like a broken pricing scheme. What else is broken about the current scheme?
I pay for a full adult pass (no, not thirties, college, twenties, sixties, eighties, etc.) and will lose the benefit of my daughter's pass next year as she crosses eligible age threshold. It will be another $300 or more next year for me and I am rethinking it for sure.
I am not so sure SB's obsession with ageist pricing schemes is so very optimal. I think it is starting to rub a lot of folks the wrong way.
But I'm just rambling a bit....
HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION: How would people feel if Vail had bought Sugarbush? Would it be an improvement for YOU?
I'd argue that it isn't broken. The higher end price is an incentive to buy a pass earlier and thus give SB additional cash flow prior to the summer. Pretty standard strategy in the industry.
Absolutely not. Having a cheaper pass (Epic) leading to crowds is not something I would be happy about. I like the slower (but steady) incremental progress being made by Win and his team. We don't need a Vail to come in and throw money around. That doesn't fit in the MRV culture.Quote:
HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION: How would people feel if Vail had bought Sugarbush? Would it be an improvement for YOU?
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the 20's and 30's passes. I pay full price (early season) for our passes. The cheap all mtn passes have definitely had an impact on skier traffic - which may be good if you are an owner, not so good for me. I can see selling a discounted ticket to college students, but once you graduate - why are they paying less than half what I am paying? 30 years old? Come on - are you still living in your parents basement? On the other side, I have 2 kids that ski for free on my pass. This has been a great deal thus far. This will be the last year for one of them. So next year, my 13 yo will be paying slightly less than a 30 yo. However when I throw the cost of seasonal programs, I'm north of $4500. Don't worry Win, I'm not going anywhere, just something to consider on those 30's passes.
I am actually thinking it may be worth getting additional passes in the Vail/Stowe deal though. One trip out west and a few days at Stowe and I've fully covered the cost. $1900 bucks and you can ski $!#*load of places - Sugarbush included!
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I have to believe there will be some huge, tremendous and biggly lift lines at Stowe next season.
I've had the 30s pass at both mountains this year, Stowe and Sugarbush. From what I've seen the crowd levels at Stowe are non-existent midweek (like empty chairs on every lift all day type stuff) and on weekends have never waited in more than a 10 minute line. The lines at say Heavens Gate and Castle Rock fixed grip chairs are much longer at times than I've seen at Stowe, so they have room to grow. Their parking is atrocious though and the traffic but the hill has plenty of room and the lifts that matter move people very well.
It will be interesting. I do think I'll continue to get a pass at both places as coming from Montpelier I like the flexibility of picking and choosing depending on the situation.
Let me give you my perspective on the 20s and early 30s pass. I was never a pass-holder at any mountain prior to the For 20s pass being announced 5 years ago. I would do mostly day trips up to the Catskills and then a few weekend trips a year (one to Sugarbush, and another one or two to Killington and Gore).
When the For 20s pass was announced I was turning 30 that December (so I just barely made the cutoff to qualify for it). I figured for $300 it would pay for itself if I made 2 trips up to SB. Then I thought about it a bit more and said "maybe I should think about looking at buying a condo in the area" as that had always been a dream of mine. I came up late that September to look at condos, ended up making an offer and by November owned a condo at Sugarbush. So thanks to that For 20s pass, I then became a long term passholder (which is exactly what the goal was...keep people skiing in their 20s and hook them for when they get older and will/can pay the full adult price). Ever since that first year I was paying the full adult rate (well at least until this year when the early 30s pass was announced and I qualified). People in their early 20s are not likely to pay the full adult price when they have college debt and are just getting started in the work force. The For 20s was designed to address that issue since the younger people are the future of skiing. You don't want those people to stop skiing because they can't afford it as then they may not come back even when they can afford it.
I am in a sense a perfect example of a success story. Without that pass being offered, who knows if I would have ever ended up buying a condo up here and becoming a long term committed pass holder?
The early 30s pass I don't particularly think is necessary (even though I benefited from it this year). I think the primary reason SB offered it was due to Stowe offering their new young adult pass that covered people up to the age of 34.
I'm in the same boat as you. Started going to SB when I was in my late 20s because of the For20s pass. I chose SB over Killington because SB was more about the skiing, Killington seemed to be more about the access road.
When I turned 30, I paid for the full adult pass. Then the early 30s pass became a thing. This helped my wife and I make the decision to purchase a Condo on the mountain as well and we are closing one one in May.
Get people addicted on the cheap drug while they are young and they'll pay full price when they're older. It is VERY WELL DOCUMENTED that the milleniall generation is earning far less than their parents generation and will not achieve the same quality of living.
That reminded me of this picture I took at the Reks a couple weeks ago:
Attachment 335
Congrats on the upcoming closing of your condo purchase!