Personally, I don't think any thoughtful person would choose one ski area over another based on a magazine poll. Totally arbitrary. I've skied many of those places and, if I read the reviews blindfolded (if you get what I mean), I doubt I'd be able to pick between them. I mean, how can you compare Killington to Sugarbush? Sugarbush to Stowe? Very different experiences. Sugarbush to Stratton? That's easier--great skiing experience vs. crowded non-skiing experience.

Here's the one difference between K and Sugarbush that should matter--Sugarbush has no trail nearly as crowded/dangerous as any of Cruise (out of) Control, Bunny Buster, Chute or Header (and I won't even mention those ridiculous Great Northern/Great Eastern "trails"). Sugarbush could develop a whole marketing plan around that! "Ski where 2 out of 10 skiers don't wear NY Jets parkas-ski Sugarbush!"

Fourwide wrote:

"Ski where 2 out of 10 skiers don't wear NY Jets parkas-ski Sugarbush!"

That's funny! I could stick that in the scrolling message bar on the mrv homepage....

Fourwide wrote:

Here's the one difference between K and Sugarbush that should matter--Sugarbush has no trail nearly as crowded/dangerous as any of Cruise (out of) Control, Bunny Buster, Chute or Header (and I won't even mention those ridiculous Great Northern/Great Eastern "trails"). Sugarbush could develop a whole marketing plan around that! "Ski where 2 out of 10 skiers don't wear NY Jets parkas-ski Sugarbush!"

By and large, that's absolutely correct. That said, I've had a few white knuckle runs on Lower OG right after a thaw/freeze when it's the only run with new snow blown on it. But that is by far the exception and not the rule as at K-Mart with Chute, Cruise Control, Buster, Stupidstar, and the other heavy traffic trails there.

While I agree that those annual surveys are a bit skewed ... and usually just entertaining reading ... I certainly don't reley on them to tell me where to go skiing. However, there is some truth to them ... when an area charges what the Bush does for a day ticket, or a burger, it better provide the customer service to go with those prices. If it can't and another area can .. well where do you think people will go, they'll where they get the best deal, best service, they'll go where the buildings have been maintained, where the toilets aren't overflowing, where there is some trace of night life, where they can rent a condo that was built sometime since the Nixon administration.

The Bush has fallen off many peoples radar screen because the various owners over the past 20 years have let it slid for too long. we've coasted on our reputation for so long that we've started to believe our own advertising " the best in the east , ect " to a certain degree that's bull shit, we're not the best in the east, not by a long shot. We've failed to notice that the competition has passed us by. In some respects those other areas do have more to offer than SB. I'm not sure about Holiday Mt or whatever it's called, but SB is running with some pretty big dogs and so far they're outclassing us. We need paying guests, it's a nasty fact of life but it's true. they vote with their dollars and their voting for the other guys because those other areas provide what we have promised but have failed to deliver for too many years ... good service at a reasonable price with a little bit of class and style.

The new base area buildings will certainly help. SB has some of the best terrain in New England. I think that Win and crew are really on the ball, they seem know where to take the area and how to get it there. they're doing all the right things and I'm sure that unless the whole national economic situation takes a huge turn for the worse, their current investment and master plan will certainly pay off over the next 10 years.

In the end, we the diehards, the 100 day a year skiers, out there in rain and snow, cutting tree lines in the fall, hiking out for turns off the Long Trail, we're the ones who do reap the benefits of a better run mountain, lifts that aren't shut down when it's windy, up mountain lodges like Alleyns, better place to stash your gear, ect, ect.

If nothing else those surveys are a reminder that it's a very competitive business and SB needs to deliver the goods or someone else will. I think that SB has made a turn fo the better, it'll be fun to watch over the next 10 years.

The only really crowded trails at sugarbush are deathspout, and mabey jester on a crowded day. Also strait shot at Mt Ellen gets a bit crazy sometimes though never really bad. Where as at places like K-Mart everything gets overcrowded.

I am glad to see from the AZ challenge that sugarbush isn't going to increse lift capacity, and keep it where it is, which would put them aside from any other resort whom if you gave the money, would run a high speed six pack up each trail.


As far as marketing etc... here are a few reasons I see that keeps sugarbush off the radar (btw alot of people like it that way)

1. Not to much of a hard core party scene, people looking for serious clubbing won't really find it at SB.
2. Even though SB has great intermediate terrain, it isn't their primary focus. After all the majority of the terain even at Mt Ellen is blacks, and double blacks, with some of the blacks almost as hard as the doubles, if not harder some days. I have skiied many a day, where I would rather ski laps down Exterminator, than Bravo, and where Hammerhead, is harder than FIS.
3. Sugarbush is real, and doesn't quite cram themselves into the typical ski resort mold. Some peple will go to Jay just because they have a tram, and to them that is as much a part of the ski experience, as skiing its-self. And I wonder how many people just love K-Mart for the Signature Snow, which according to them is as good or better as the real stuff.

Though for your typical stereotypical joey from the city, Sugarbush on paper might seem `less appealing, as by comparing stats in the brochoure Subarbush doesn't look nearly as good as it is.

I have talked to many people on the lifts at other resorts, and mention sugarbush as my home resort, and they say something of the sort that they learned there, skied there alot 20 years ago or something of the sort, and some people I have talked to still think ACS owns it and won't have anything to do with it beacuse of that.

Some people think that they don't even have snowmaking on half the terrain, and think they don't even have any HSQ chairs.

Sugarbush seems to be really discrete in their marketing, and most most bush skiiers, tend to be discrete as well as it is their secret stash.

I personaly somtimes refer people, espicaly familys with young kids to places like smuggs to people who aren't really serious skiiers, as there is plenty of other stuff to besides skiing, and for kids who might not wan't to spend the whole day on the hill.

I think the thing with the bush, is that it is appealing to serious skiiers, and that people who like it tend to find it on their own.

I personaly like it to be a bit underated to keep the crowds down, If Sugarbush was rated Number 1, plenty of people would be planning their trips there just because of that, and not because of the bush beeing a serious ski destination.

While I agree with the above, being from NY, I can tell you that most of the casual skiers I speak to percieve Sugarbush as being in a different time zone distance wise, from K-Mart and Mt. Snow. Most think that it is a 6+ hour drive. But there is no reason to work to change those perceptions until the facilities are ready to be shown off.

....with regard to low key marketing, I've seen any Sugarbush print ads in the fall run of ski mags. Don't recall, but there probably were.

Interesting posts, the previous three.

My local skiing buddies here in Southern CT - all with families well under way - tend to mostly select hills for their proximity/travel time, high school era experiences (we're a late 30s / early 40's crowd) or ski home / condo ownership. Most of these folks think S'bush is significantly father afield than K-mart, which is itself a delineating point for many S. CT recreational skiiers ie, those willing to travel more than 4 hours, and those who are not. So K-mart ends up soaking up all those who push on past Mt Snow, Stratton, Okemo, etc. When I note (to a few of them, not all!) that S'bush is less than 30 add'l minutes of drive time more from S. CT, they have a tough time digesting that.

As for the folks who own a ski house or condo, they are more often than not part of a self-fulfilling cycle: eg, they skiied Stratton as kids in their parent's Stratton ski condo, then took it over, etc. One related pattern I have seen is this: frequent guests of these ski house/condo owners tend to buy their own pad on or near the same mountain, which in turn develops a mini-community of linked people on or near a particular mountain. This 'virtuous cycle' of sorts plays itself out at some frequency which is likely linked to the # of on-mountain or otherwise nearby beds. And that's a tough factor to compete with - - although the new housing options arriving at S'bush will help. I personally know 3 people who in past 2 season bought places largely based on this...2 bought at Okemo, and 1 at Stratton. They now get season passes to their local mountain, and also owing to the logistics related to their children they are highly unlikely to get to another Eastern mountain any time soon. Which is fine by me; I love the uncrowded trails & lifts (anyone ever try to ski a trail at Stratton on any recent weekend?? It's bumper-to-bumper traffic on their trails). But I do recognize that to keep S'bush healthy it needs paying customers...so I make it a point to introduce friends to the hill via an annual 'guy's ski weekend trip'...at least once a season...we now take our eldest kids...if your spouse permits, I highly recommend them!

I have a problem with any ski area or golf course or hotel or theater or resort that has fallen below the accepted and current standard but has the balls to brush it off by claiming " well, the reason we're not popular is because the public doesn't appreciate us for the unique [ ski area, golf course, resort, ect ] that we are. We know we're good, the rest of the world just doen't know enough to recognize our hidden qualities. " that gets real thin real fast.

The trouble, is people have been to Europe and out west to see how other fine ski areas are run, they've seen what their money can buy, they've been introduced to a higher standard of service, better on mountain facilities, intelligent and architectually more interesting base area designs, more thoughtful and better accessed rental/repair shops and all round better ski experience. when they come back to vermont and take a look at SB, we look pretty ragged. sure, we've got the good stuff off of Paradise and Castlerock and North has all sorts of hidden treasures but so does every other ski area. Jay has the best trees this side of Steamboat, Mt Mansfield has some extremely demanding / challenging terrain, Smugs is a great mountain, Wildcat and Cannon in New Hampshire are absolutely awsome and will both kick the stuffing out of anyone who underestimates them. SB is good but so is the competition.

those surveys are valuable and well worth taking seriously because they're a wake up call, SB has a long way to go before it'll return to it's rightful place as one of the top eastern areas. the Bush got a head start and came on strong almost 40 years ago and since then we've coasted many of those years. Now it's caught up to us and we see the public passing us by and we wonder why.

SB, It's my home area, I love it and will probably ski here for the rest of my life, all my ski buds are here, I've got my fav runs and trees and I've yet to ski clean / non-stop Paradise dogleg, Spills or Castlerock liftline and Mall always has me giving myself a good talking to.

Actually, I take all polls very seriously. Perception is everything and one needs to understand that. We have an incredibly loyal following, but we need more Raving Fans. There are definitely flaws and biases in the Ski Mag rankings and we have researched how this poll is conducted which is not perfect. Nevertheless, if we deliver the product - AND WE WILL - we should rise in the poll and this will only help. I will predict that the new base area will be a WOW! However, in the end, it really all depends on the snow conditions the day one is here and is selected to participate in the annual poll. We can not control the weather, ,but we can control the guest service experience and the quality of the snowmaking and the grooming that is within our control, and that is what we focus on. If we do that correctly, we will rise in the polls. The new lodges, residences and kitchen take away any excuse for delivering quality on these fronts, so this year the voters will decide if we delivered! Guess we will see in a year! In the meantime, think snow!

win wrote:

Actually, I take all polls very seriously. Perception is everything and one needs to understand that. We have an incredibly loyal following, but we need more Raving Fans. There are definitely flaws and biases in the Ski Mag rankings and we have researched how this poll is conducted which is not perfect. Nevertheless, if we deliver the product - AND WE WILL - we should rise in the poll and this will only help. I will predict that the new base area will be a WOW! However, in the end, it really all depends on the snow conditions the day one is here and is selected to participate in the annual poll. We can not control the weather, ,but we can control the guest service experience and the quality of the snowmaking and the grooming that is within our control, and that is what we focus on. If we do that correctly, we will rise in the polls. The new lodges, residences and kitchen take away any excuse for delivering quality on these fronts, so this year the voters will decide if we delivered! Guess we will see in a year! In the meantime, think snow!

Keep on keeping on. You guys are doing great, Win. As new media like AlpineZone and SkiMRV continues to grow, your raving fan base will also increase. You certainly have one of the strongest followings among the online communities that I've seen. Your participation here demonstrates that you understand that and the SB fans here certainly appreciate it!

Hello everyone. I love SB! My first "big" mountain (over 600 VF) was SB back in 1977... having only skied at Ski Rountop prior to that.. it seemed like mount everest at the time! The conditions were simply perfect too.. the area had just gotten about 2.5 feet dumped on it before our bus arrived.. every trail was open. I fondly remember riding in the old fiberglass 3 person gondola.. damn I miss that thing!

I took my daughter who is now 15.. there back in 2003 and it was her first "big" mountain experience too. I could have gone anywhere in the country to take her skiing, but my fond memories of SugarBush and the rustic feeling of the Mad River valley brought me back. I wanted my daughter to experience the beauty of Vermont skiing at its finest. We skied a whole week in February.. I took her out of school to go! I was sad the gondola had been scrapped.. but we still had an awesome time.. practically had the resort to our selves too.

We skied at Glen Ellen... or SB north as it is now called and at MRG.. it was great to see the single chair still in operation! You local peeps really have a wonderful place to live.. Im stuck down here in MD now. But In about 9 hours or so.. I can be up in the Valley for some great skiing!
I love skiing.. and hopefully someday I will hit the powerball so I can do an Endless winter tour for the rest of my life!!

My opinion of the survey's lack of recognition for SB is this.... They simply dont know what they are missing.. and maybe that's a good thing.


Cheers~ Ski-San

Glad you had a good time here. 600'... That's not even Gatehouse! (If you're not sure, Gatehouse is the HSQ on the right of Lincoln Peak. http://www.sugarbush.com/images/skiandride/trailmap0607large.jpg

Check out the Iteractive trail map, later in the season. I wa going to send the link there, but as all the lifts are closed they don't show, at this time. But when we are open, it is a great resource.

Hope you can get away to visit us again, this season.

No complaints about Mt Ellen, but you really have to try Lincoln Peak. (South)