The tax topic is interesting and got moved to the MRV thread. Please continue discussing there.

BushMogulMaster wrote:

FYI, average profit margin in the ski business is 3%. Even with pass prices this high. Bitch all you want, there's not money going into anyone's pocket at the ski area. And I don't even want to get into the lifts/snowmaking cost equation right now. Most people have zero idea of what it takes to make that happen, both physically and financially. What you have to understand is that the poor economy doesn't just affect the guests. It can affect the area as well. You say fewer people will buy the pass each time the price is raised? But it has been raised just about each year in the past, and Win has told us on this forum how much pass sales have been going up in recent years. As much as I agree that skiing is, unfortunately, not very affordable for the average person, it doesn't look like pass prices are causing much of a detriment to sales. On the contrary, sales continue to rise. My $.02

How does Jay Peak manage to keep pass at 50% of the Sugarbush price (non-discounted rates on both)?
Same for Smuggs? Though Suguarbush has a few more 'lifts' (mat/pomas/inverness) Jay has the Cram
to deal with. Skiable acres are similar when one factors in that Mt. Ellen is closed roughly 25% of the
season (so a full pass holder does *not* get the full benefit of the totals that Sugarbush lists.)

As to your point about Win/poor economy - why are so many businesses out of biz or forsale in this
area? Are all these people eating on the mountain? In the roughly 8 years I've been up here a lot have
left (some not voluntarily) but only EasyStreet/Pub came in? Likewise I do recall in 98-01 period
there was actually a cop directing traffic at the bottom of the access road - perhaps it was overkill
but he did seem busy - doing something other than setting up a speed trap.

The bottom line is the best we can hope for is a low rate of increase and continued respect for
passholders who front the money to Sugarbush in May.

beelze wrote:

How does Jay Peak manage to keep pass at 50% of the Sugarbush price (non-discounted rates on both)? Same for Smuggs? Though Suguarbush has a few more 'lifts' (mat/pomas/inverness) Jay has the Cram to deal with. Skiable acres are similar when one factors in that Mt. Ellen is closed roughly 25% of the season (so a full pass holder does *not* get the full benefit of the totals that Sugarbush lists.) As to your point about Win/poor economy - why are so many businesses out of biz or forsale in this area? Are all these people eating on the mountain? In the roughly 8 years I've been up here a lot have left (some not voluntarily) but only EasyStreet/Pub came in? Likewise I do recall in 98-01 period there was actually a cop directing traffic at the bottom of the access road - perhaps it was overkill but he did seem busy - doing something other than setting up a speed trap. The bottom line is the best we can hope for is a low rate of increase and continued respect for passholders who front the money to Sugarbush in May.

As I've said above, the price point for SB season passes don't work for me, but the answer to your question is simple. SB charges twice as much b/c it can. Jay may have all the snow in the world, but it's cold, remote, and has little terrain to interest your average intermediate cruiser. If they charged what SB does, they'd have very few takers.

Tin Woodsman wrote:

beelze wrote: How does Jay Peak manage to keep pass at 50% of the Sugarbush price (non-discounted rates on both)? Same for Smuggs? Though Suguarbush has a few more 'lifts' (mat/pomas/inverness) Jay has the Cram to deal with. Skiable acres are similar when one factors in that Mt. Ellen is closed roughly 25% of the season (so a full pass holder does *not* get the full benefit of the totals that Sugarbush lists.) As to your point about Win/poor economy - why are so many businesses out of biz or forsale in this area? Are all these people eating on the mountain? In the roughly 8 years I've been up here a lot have left (some not voluntarily) but only EasyStreet/Pub came in? Likewise I do recall in 98-01 period there was actually a cop directing traffic at the bottom of the access road - perhaps it was overkill but he did seem busy - doing something other than setting up a speed trap. The bottom line is the best we can hope for is a low rate of increase and continued respect for passholders who front the money to Sugarbush in May. As I've said above, the price point for SB season passes don't work for me, but the answer to your question is simple. SB charges twice as much b/c it can. Jay may have all the terrain in the world, but it's cold, remote, and has little terrain to interest your average intermediate cruiser. If they charged what SB does, they'd have very few takers.

Once you are done skiing @ Jay there is ZERO to do, esp @ night. However, they do have great mtn biking in the summer .

Also, how do you come up with the 25% figure for ME being closed?

freeheel_skier wrote:

Also, how do you come up with the 25% figure for ME being closed?

Well.. I just ball parked it based on it opening after LP and closing at least 2 weeks before LP.
I've looked back in the forum and seems Mt. Ellen opened around 12/20 this year? If we
put the season Turkey Day - 4/15 thats about 21 full weeks, ME is open 14, so in fact thats only
2/3 of the season. But I think maybe this year was later than most in regards the split open
so lets split the diff and call it 70%? 75% in a 'good' year? So i think my initial guess of it being
closed 25% is to first order a good guess.


Re nothing to do at JP, true enough but they (and Smuggs) still seem able to operate/stay in biz
while charging less but seemingly with more than 50% of the terrain/costs. You are right, SB gets what
it does because it can but that doesn't mean we have to shed tears for Win (or whomever owns it)
because diesel fuel prices go up or 'only passholders ski late season'.

beelze wrote:

freeheel_skier wrote: Also, how do you come up with the 25% figure for ME being closed? Well.. I just ball parked it based on it opening after LP and closing at least 2 weeks before LP. I've looked back in the forum and seems Mt. Ellen opened around 12/20 this year? If we put the season Turkey Day - 4/15 thats about 21 full weeks, ME is open 14, so in fact thats only 2/3 of the season. But I think maybe this year was later than most in regards the split open so lets split the diff and call it 70%? 75% in a 'good' year? So i think my initial guess of it being closed 25% is to first order a good guess. Re nothing to do at JP, true enough but they (and Smuggs) still seem able to operate/stay in biz while charging less but seemingly with more than 50% of the terrain/costs. You are right, SB gets what it does because it can but that doesn't mean we have to shed tears for Win (or whomever owns it) because diesel fuel prices go up or 'only passholders ski late season'.

I can't speak to Jay Peak but I have friends who are regulars at Smuggs and from what they tell me the lift situation there is a disaster on weekends/holidays. They don't even go to the main mountain on weekends because the wait at the main lifts are up to an hour.

HowieT2 wrote:

beelze wrote: freeheel_skier wrote: Also, how do you come up with the 25% figure for ME being closed? Well.. I just ball parked it based on it opening after LP and closing at least 2 weeks before LP. I've looked back in the forum and seems Mt. Ellen opened around 12/20 this year? If we put the season Turkey Day - 4/15 thats about 21 full weeks, ME is open 14, so in fact thats only 2/3 of the season. But I think maybe this year was later than most in regards the split open so lets split the diff and call it 70%? 75% in a 'good' year? So i think my initial guess of it being closed 25% is to first order a good guess. Re nothing to do at JP, true enough but they (and Smuggs) still seem able to operate/stay in biz while charging less but seemingly with more than 50% of the terrain/costs. You are right, SB gets what it does because it can but that doesn't mean we have to shed tears for Win (or whomever owns it) because diesel fuel prices go up or 'only passholders ski late season'. I can't speak to Jay Peak but I have friends who are regulars at Smuggs and from what they tell me the lift situation there is a disaster on weekends/holidays. They don't even go to the main mountain on weekends because the wait at the main lifts are up to an hour.

I'll vouch for that. I had a pass at Smuggs last season (and for a bunch of others before) and Madonna liftlines are ridiculous. Sterling is bad too, although I would say the longest that I waited there was closer to 30-40 mins. You just need to know where to go to make the most of your runs when you wait that long .

I went to Smuggs 2 seasons ago and was shocked to find nothing but old slow doubles, some with mid stations. For a resort that prides itself as being the #1 family resort in Vermont (or was it the East?), I was expecting something more in the lifts department. While there are (I'm sure) some who long for the days of no high speed lifts at the Bush, at least on weekends here, the lines are reasonable, especially at North.

I haven't been back to Smuggs since that one frigid Point day in 05/06... a liftee there made fun of my season pass to SB.

I've had (I think) 4 passes at Smuggs. I had a full pass there, and a bronze pass at the bush. Smuggs is a great mountain. It is not in real competition with Sugarbush.

As mentioned, they have old, slow doubles. Were they to upgrade them to HSQs, the trails would suck. They have some great terrain, but not enough for significant lift expansion.

They open later and close earlier. But there is some great skiing, there.

They cost less because you get less.

Lostone wrote:

I've had (I think) As mentioned, they have old, slow doubles. Were they to upgrade them to HSQs, the trails would suck. They have some great terrain, but not enough for significant lift expansion. They open later and close earlier. But there is some great skiing, there. They cost less because you get less.

As to their dates, I just looked at their webpage and got:Friday, November 23, 2007 - Sunday, April 13, 2008. So a
week earlier than SB but they do not intentionally close 50% of their terrain 3 weeks earlier. Agreed on the old
double chairs (not that SB doesnt have its share of slow lifts too) but you seem to be saying if they added capacity
the trails wouldn't be able to handle it - which seems to imply that they are at a price point which creates significant
skiier visits, more than they have the capacity for. If so, it would make more sense for them to *raise* prices to
prevent excess crowding and for Sugarbush to *lower* prices to generate more volume (lets be honest - except for
holidays there really are no lift lines at SB).

I've not seen any comments on Jay other than the lack of night life but if I recall they have 3 or 4 quads and the
cram and a few doubles. Haven't been up there in the past two years though.

Jay is "way up there", is cold and frequently windy, surfaces windblown, and a lot of folk from 'cross the border. The Tram line on weekends is ridiculously long, and if you don't want to deal with that, you can get on the 'Freezer. While they say they get the most snow in the east, I think the majority of that blows in the woods, leaving the trails as skating rinks. For those that have never been there, picture every trail being like Deathspout, or even the very top of Rim Run at ME. Their woods are what makes them famous and popular. As for their other lifts, they have the Bonny Quad, the triple on Stateside, and the former 'Slug' (aka the Metro), plus a double down low. Haven't been there at all this season - its a good mtn, but not my favorite by a long shot. There isn't a lot of "comrodery" (sp?) since hardly anyone there is speaking English.

I'll spend my $$$ at the Bush and plan to get the ME Plus for next season.

Does anyone know what the price will be for an ALL Mtn. 7 pass after 5/1? I called the season pass office and they didn't know. No info on the web site either. Call me crazy, but how can I decide if it is worth it to shell out $2,000 now if I don't know what the price will be after 5/1.

djd66 wrote:

Does anyone know what the price will be for an ALL Mtn. 7 pass after 5/1? I called the season pass office and they didn't know. No info on the web site either. Call me crazy, but how can I decide if it is worth it to shell out $2,000 now if I don't know what the price will be after 5/1.

It will be more expensive than the present cost plus the cost of money. Buy it now, (4/31 actually) unless you are carrying it on a credit card for some length of time.

djd66 wrote:

Does anyone know what the price will be for an ALL Mtn. 7 pass after 5/1? I called the season pass office and they didn't know. No info on the web site either. Call me crazy, but how can I decide if it is worth it to shell out $2,000 now if I don't know what the price will be after 5/1.

To answer your question I don't know. However my best guess is the adult season pass is going to cost $1449 if you wait until ski season.

Last year price jump between 5/1 and next deadline (not sure about the date) was only $50.