And another thing....

Windholds. There are these little things on detachable quads called RPDs, or Rope Position Detectors. They are magnetic sensors, designed to shut down the lift if the haul rope moves even a small amount out of a predetermined path in the grooves of the sheave train. The dynamic load that heavy wind creates on the haul rope will often trip these RPDs. If happens, maintenance will certainly have to assess the situation, and if the wind was enough to physically move the haul rope out of its predetermined path, that probably means that the lift ought to be shut down.

Most people don't think that wind can have much of an affect on a haul rope, because of its apparent small diameter. But consider the dynamic load that is applied to the whole length of the haul rope. It's enough to have quite an effect on both the position of the rope, and the tensioning system. Not to mention chair swing, which as we've found out before can have some devastating effects.

Not only trying to defend the Bush here, but trying to help you understand WHY lifts go on windhold. We just happen to get hit pretty hard with the prevailing winds blowing across the lines.

You know what the answer is, IMO? More surface lifts!

007 wrote:

Tin Woodsman wrote: Closing off most/all of Spring Fling and Snowball on a busy March Sunday - not so good. Not to be antagonistic, there were 49 other blue square trails to ski on that day, despite the popularity of those two and there convenience for starting, racing, and finish areas.

Great - then I'm sure you'll have no problem if Bravo is closed off for racers only on a busy winter weekend. Despite the popularity of that one, there are 15 other lifts for you to ride.

Sorry - that's a lousy excuse. The fact is that those two runs ARE popular. I'd venture to say they receive the majority of skier traffic out of all the runs East of Murphy's Glade and likely represent 2 of the 5 most skied runs at LP. Regardless of their convenience for starting, racing and finish areas, I'm struggling to think of a good reason as to why SB would want to close them off to non-racers on a busy March weekend. Their attractive aspects as race trails should be harnessed on weekdays or, if on weekends, one at a time only. It's not that tough.

This particular race, the NE Masters Size Cup was scheduled in advance and the race people are coming from all over. It is a big event. There is no consideration for weather or crowds when scheduling a race and they close the trail for safety reasons. There was no way that SB could have foreseen the lift closings due to wind and mechanical. If all of the lifts were running we would not be discussing this, well except for Madhavok. He still would be mad over the trail closings.

Now if you look at it from the racers point of view and I spoke to a few of them on the lift, they were very pleased with how SB ran this event. That is very good PR because most of these people come from other mountains. I had no issues this weekend. I, 007 and a couple of other notable shady characters took advantage of the downed lift to ski up the pow that could only be accessed by hiking.

I will end by saying this. It is the opinion of the vast majority of people on this board that the bitch level is out of control. Constructive criticism is fine but the constant erroneous speculation and conspiracy theories are ridiculous. It is sad because it has caused several good people that have posted stoke and fun stuff to stop participating. I can only hope that they will come back once thing settle out.

That is all.....

IMHO, Nastar should not be run simultaneously with a race on Snowball/Spring Fling. Those are very heavily-skied trails and the only practical LP lower-mountain blue alternative to crowded Gatehouse. Run Nastar in the afternoon, after the Snowball/Spring Fling race has ended.

Fourwide wrote:

IMHO, Nastar should not be run simultaneously with a race on Snowball/Spring Fling. Those are very heavily-skied trails and the only practical LP lower-mountain blue alternative to crowded Gatehouse. Run Nastar in the afternoon, after the Snowball/Spring Fling race has ended.

Quoted for truth. No one said cancel the scheduled race. Just don't close off both of those trails (or seriously restrict them) at the same time. If this race was scheduled so far in advance, there should have been plenty of time to consider the alternatives and impact on the 95% of paying customers who didn't participate.

I see a ton of stoke on this board and I see some bitching as well. Having too much of either would make it pretty boring.

Everything is relative. The "bitch" level may appear to be up because there was zero before. I like to see some criticism. Fire it up. If paying customers aren't happy then voice it. Why not? Win takes this all with a grain of salt and I'm sure professionally and not personally. Disregards the outrageous and considers the plausible. This is one of the benefits of the forum. Open discussion. Not regulated discussion. If you want to see some complaining, bitching or otherwise mountain bashing try reading a Killington forum. Now those are some unhappy hombres. Fortunately because I don't ski that trash heap I don't care what goes on over there, but every now and again I like to take a peak and see how good we have it.

My thought on the chairs being down; was this something that could have been noticed in the off season and corrected before then? Truthfully I have no idea so I'm asking and not sarcastically. It's just with the software issues earlier this year that shut things down I'm curious about the maintenance that goes on in the off season. Don't get me wrong, the guys that handle mountain ops have a tough job and I think overall do pretty well. I've never done their job so I can't speak from an educated stance and criticize what they do (I'm sure it's not easy), but we've had some lift issues this year so it gets me wondering if perhaps they need more peeps or dare I say it.....yes......a larger budget?? The software upgrade seemed like it was being sent by carrier pigeon with how long it took to fix. The SBX went down one weekend and we were told it was due to safety reasons because of the lack of snow underfoot, but I was told that night by someone at the Bush that they were waiting on a part. Perhaps they were misinformed, but it got me curious. I think it was last year(or perhaps the year before) that North Ridge was down at the opening of the season because no one had trimmed the branches yet in the lift path. Something that perhaps could have been done a bit earlier. (My buddy actually saw the guys going up the lift with polearms to trim.)

BMM - Any chance you know if there are ways to mitigate wind issues? Obviously you can't completely get rid of them, but do loading practices in some way mitigate? For instance if you make sure that no singles ride up alone on a chair (or maybe you want less weight) or load every other chair can you run a lift safely at a reduced capacity? I have no idea. Just asking. Of course if there is no safe way to do it then the question stops here for me.

In any case I'm sure it will all be a moot point for me this weekend when skiing because I only care about this stuff during the week when I'm wishing I had some pow under foot. Until then I'll just sit back and wonder about what could be done to make things better and how Carrot Top ever got a gig to begin with. Seriously. How is that a household name? I swear if that guy had to depend on just comedy for his living how is he not in a gutter somewhere waiting to be hit by a street plow? I'd rather watch Al Sharpton and Betty White talk about economic stability in the Pacific Rim then hear his routine. He must be running a pyramid scheme or something to stay alive. Just one guy talking here though.......

Tin Woodsman wrote:

Fourwide wrote: IMHO, Nastar should not be run simultaneously with a race on Snowball/Spring Fling. Those are very heavily-skied trails and the only practical LP lower-mountain blue alternative to crowded Gatehouse. Run Nastar in the afternoon, after the Snowball/Spring Fling race has ended. Quoted for truth. No one said cancel the scheduled race. Just don't close off both of those trails (or seriously restrict them) at the same time. If this race was scheduled so far in advance, there should have been plenty of time to consider the alternatives and impact on the 95% of paying customers who didn't participate. I see a ton of stoke on this board and I see some bitching as well. Having too much of either would make it pretty boring.

Here's some bitch:

The Nastar course being set up on Racer's Edge I think is new this year from last (At least on the weekends.). It does seem to be under utilized when it is up, dormant in fact. 4Wide seems to be on to something about sliding the Nastar to afternoon.

And here's some stoke from Roger Hill:

"Another major system to affect us late in the week with primarily snow, possibly a lot of it."

I must say, however, that the action on the little strip on the skiers' right of Spring Fling that remains open while racing is held on both Racers' Edge and Spring Fling is some very exciting stuff! Pouring several beginner/intermediate skiers down that narrow chute--you could sell tickets!!

It seemed perplexing to me that a Senior race was held on the weekend--kind of like when the supermarket is filled with retirees on Saturdays, which is my day off; if they're retired (and though vigorous, most looked past retirement age) why not schedule the race on a Thursday or Friday? That being said I am not complaining. If an 80 year old wants to race, I say he gets precedent. Still, Sugarbush does not have a lot of cruisers other than Spring Fling and Snowball and closing them off on a weekend when you couldnt get up to the summits turned out to be a mistake.

It's not a seniors race, it's called the masters series and the skiers are 18 years to 80+. Here's a link to their site.

http://www.nemasters.org/ageclass.html

You know I do not race and I find it funny that I am defending these people. I guess that I tried taking the point of veiw of the other people on the hill.

Couple points:

1) Snowball was not closed at all this weekend. Spring Fling was totally closed on Sunday, but partially open on Saturday. The race on Racers' Edge was NASTAR. They normally do it on Spring Fling, but it was moved due to the previously scheduled masters race.

Snowball was partially closed Thursday and Friday for either racing or race training, connected with the Masters race. There was a way to get down, but it was a little ugly. That made the snow on Eden hold up just a little better.

B) I don't do NASTAR, but it is a nation-wide program, and is very popular. I read that many are saying that one should cancel the other, but the masters race draws people to NASTAR. And people doing well in NASTAR tend to try to get into training programs for racing, some of which might make it to the masters races.

III) These racing programs are money makers for mountains. They bring the race events and that draws others, as people that travel with the racers and those who are into the racing scene. Every mountain has them. They are short and long term income. They aren't every trail, and there is usually plenty of other skiing available for all abilities.

d) As mentioned above, the Valley House chair problems came up during a weekly inspection. They weren't noticed before, and the lift has been running regularly, when scheduled. I don't think anyone would be willing to be one of the ones in an incident where their safety was compromised, unnecessarily. The resort is unwilling to take that risk. When the problem was noticed, the lift operation was canceled pending a solution of the problem. The mountain was up-front about announcing the problem and the fact that it would be unlikely to be solved this season.

5) I don't think the bitch-level here is too high, in general. I think it is good to have a place where people can express their concerns and complaints. I think it is great that Win reads the concerns and explains his side of things. But sometimes you have to understand that your concerns have been heard, but the resort has decided other concerns trump your's.

MntMan4Bush wrote:

My thought on the chairs being down; was this something that could have been noticed in the off season and corrected before then? Truthfully I have no idea so I'm asking and not sarcastically. It's just with the software issues earlier this year that shut things down I'm curious about the maintenance that goes on in the off season. Don't get me wrong, the guys that handle mountain ops have a tough job and I think overall do pretty well. I've never done their job so I can't speak from an educated stance and criticize what they do (I'm sure it's not easy), but we've had some lift issues this year so it gets me wondering if perhaps they need more peeps or dare I say it.....yes......a larger budget?? The software upgrade seemed like it was being sent by carrier pigeon with how long it took to fix. The SBX went down one weekend and we were told it was due to safety reasons because of the lack of snow underfoot, but I was told that night by someone at the Bush that they were waiting on a part. Perhaps they were misinformed, but it got me curious. I think it was last year(or perhaps the year before) that North Ridge was down at the opening of the season because no one had trimmed the branches yet in the lift path. Something that perhaps could have been done a bit earlier. (My buddy actually saw the guys going up the lift with polearms to trim.)

Some of those points are certainly legitimate concerns, and I can't speak directly to all of them. As for the North Ridge software problem, that was a very complex (and unexpected) situation, and the wait was due to the OEM not being available. There was nothing else lift maintenance could do but wait for them. And it also wasn't something that maintenance could have taken care of over the summer.

SBX can't run if there's not enough cover to get the snowcats and snowmobiles in, plain and simple. Regardless of the operational status of the lift itself, it can't turn with public until there's enough base. So maybe both parties were right in this case. Maybe there wasn't enough cover, and maybe they were also waiting on a part.

Quote:

BMM - Any chance you know if there are ways to mitigate wind issues? Obviously you can't completely get rid of them, but do loading practices in some way mitigate? For instance if you make sure that no singles ride up alone on a chair (or maybe you want less weight) or load every other chair can you run a lift safely at a reduced capacity? I have no idea. Just asking. Of course if there is no safe way to do it then the question stops here for me.

Yep. Install more surface lifts, have skinnier lift lines, lower lift towers, etc. One simple way that seems counter-intuitive is to actually run the lift faster (if the concern is chair swing). Higher speed means more forward momentum of the chairs, and less of a tendency to swing side-to-side. But each and every situation is different, so without making drastic changes to the engineering of the lifts, you can't really mitigate the issue.

Lostone wrote:

Couple points: 1) Snowball was not closed at all this weekend. Spring Fling was totally closed on Sunday, but partially open on Saturday. The race on Racers' Edge was NASTAR. They normally do it on Spring Fling, but it was moved due to the previously scheduled masters race. Snowball was partially closed Thursday and Friday for either racing or race training, connected with the Masters race. There was a way to get down, but it was a little ugly. That made the snow on Eden hold up just a little better.

The configuration of Racer's Edge (which was mentioned) and Snowball as one continuous run renders this distinction irrelevant. Unless you made your way over to Cat's Meow (or whatever it's called), the only way down on Sunday was a narrow strip on Racer's Edge adjacent to the nearly abandoned NASTAR course. Heck, even when the race was LONG over at 3:00, they still had Spring Fling roped off - what gives?

Quote:

B) I don't do NASTAR, but it is a nation-wide program, and is very popular. I read that many are saying that one should cancel the other, but the masters race draws people to NASTAR. And people doing well in NASTAR tend to try to get into training programs for racing, some of which might make it to the masters races.

Perhaps this makes sense in a broader fashion - that one feeds of the other and vice versa, over the course of time. But with respect tot he specific situation this weekend, that is irrelevant.

Quote:

III) These racing programs are money makers for mountains. They bring the race events and that draws others, as people that travel with the racers and those who are into the racing scene. Every mountain has them. They are short and long term income. They aren't every trail, and there is usually plenty of other skiing available for all abilities.

You know what's also a money maker for the mountain? Intermediate skiers with their families who like cruisers. It sounds like you're saying that the mountain made a rather cynical decision that any monies earned from NASTAR on Sunday would be incremental to lift ticket revenues, whereas those people disappointed with the lack of access to these two critical cruisers would have already spent their money. If so, that would be the very definition of penny-wise, pound-foolish, to the extent that someone came away with a negative impression of SB as a result. No one here is saying cancel NASTAR writ large. Just cancel it on the days that Spring Fling is already closed for racing - how hard can that be?

Quote:

d) As mentioned above, the Valley House chair problems came up during a weekly inspection. They weren't noticed before, and the lift has been running regularly, when scheduled. I don't think anyone would be willing to be one of the ones in an incident where their safety was compromised, unnecessarily. The resort is unwilling to take that risk. When the problem was noticed, the lift operation was canceled pending a solution of the problem. The mountain was up-front about announcing the problem and the fact that it would be unlikely to be solved this season.

They clearly made the right decision. It is unfortunate that this issue could not have been averted with a more aggressive internal maintenance and inspection program. If BMM knows what sort of damage can result from idling a chair, then mountain ops should know too and be prepared to deal with same.

Quote:

5) I don't think the bitch-level here is too high, in general. I think it is good to have a place where people can express their concerns and complaints. I think it is great that Win reads the concerns and explains his side of things. But sometimes you have to understand that your concerns have been heard, but the resort has decided other concerns trump your's.

It is indeed great. That said, it's a shame that the desire to earn $100-200 in NASTAR revenue trumped the guest experience on Sunday.

Quote:

The configuration of Racer's Edge (which was mentioned) and Snowball as one continuous run renders this distinction irrelevant.

The complaint was that Snowball and Spring Fling were closed. That would cut off Twist, Moonshine, Spring Fling, Eden and Lower Snowball. Instead it was Racer's Edge. That cuts off Cat's Meow, tho they'll usually even let you thru to get to that.

As for the chute on the right of the bottom of the race course being ugly... I won't bother to argue with that. It sucks! Everything isn't great all the time.

Quote:

That said, it's a shame that the desire to earn $100-200 in NASTAR revenue trumped the guest experience on Sunday.

I don't think that the racing programs are an immediate payoff, especially NASTAR. NASTAR is just one of those things many people expect a mountain to have.

As for the races, they may bring in 100 racers. That might bring in 200-??? more, that accompany them. Some of them pay for lodging, and some for food. But that is not where I see the "money making".

I see it from people who are really in to skiing. They come to this place called Sugarbush. They ski 20-40 of the 111 trails and say there is a lot more to this place. Many of them decide to come back, later. They also see that chute and anything else that is wrong, at the time. Still, they go to a lot of mountains and the resort might feel they still come out ahead.

These are only my thoughts. I've not discussed it with anyone in management or the racing programs, but they seem to make sense.

Still, I appreciate your position, and I've seen the look of some of the people looking up, from the sides of that chute, as I ski toward them. Not the best thing on the hill. Very seldom the worst.

But the amount of good skiing they get, on the Snowball, Lower Snowball, Spring Road, Spring Fling run, before hitting that short segment of Spring Fling... I've seen people who hated it, do it again, because their good to bad ratio was high enough.

What a whiner that Tin Woodie is. But he is a heck of a typer. All those posts....................maybe if he spent more time practicing his turns than typing and whining he wouldnt be so upset that a blue run was closed. If he's that serious about his skiing, try the black runs..........they are sooooo much more fun ! And what's up with the phony name...........a real woodsman would be skiing n the woods, where all the beautiful untracked snow was. The bark was delicious.

woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo