Snowmaking plan?

[slatham]

Win (or someone else in the know) what is the plan? As of 3pm it was 19 degrees atop Mt Mansfield, which has to be a good proxy for the top on Lincoln/Ellen. Mountain forecast is for lows in low 20's, highs tomorrow mid 20's, and Tuesday upper 20's. Longer range forecast looking good too - at least for early November. By the looks of the CAMs, Killington has been blasting since at least mid day today. Time to crank 'em up and put some snow down. :D

[win]

Our plan was to start snowmaking at Lincoln Peak around November 1st which is tomorrow. It does look like we have at least a few good days of temperatures at the summit, so we will be assessing in the morning and hoping the temperatures will allow a good run so that we can make opening day on Saturday, November 20th.

[summitchallenger]

Any word as to if the guns are going? Pictures?

[shadyjay]

Just stepped out on my deck. I may be a little crazy, but I hear what sounds like the guns going - but it sounds like they're on the Gate House side, or right at the base area.

Snow Report's been updated with the guns scheduled to go on 11/2.... so maybe I'm just hearing a test.

Update: It was a test, or a purge of the lines. Good to hear the sounds of the season once again!

[summitchallenger]

Just stepped out on my deck. I may be a little crazy, but I hear what sounds like the guns going - but it sounds like they're on the Gate House side, or right at the base area.

Snow Report's been updated with the guns scheduled to go on 11/2.... so maybe I'm just hearing a test.

Update: It was a test, or a purge of the lines. Good to hear the sounds of the season once again!

You beat me to the punch...



The countdown begins… only 19 days until our projected opening, and both Mother Nature and our Sugarbush team are getting ready.

We’ve already seen our first snow on October 16th, with over two feet falling at our summit. While that was quick to melt, the transition towards winter is prevalent, and today we continue to see flurries accumulating across the mountain.

Snowmakers are preparing to turn snow guns on tomorrow night (Tuesday, November 2nd), weather permitting. And opening day at Lincoln Peak is slated for Saturday, November 20th.

[win]

Testing all the lines today. Looks like we have some warmer weather and rain coming in but by the weekend the forecast is looking for colder weather, so hopefully we can be cranking and shooting to get open by 11/20.

[summitchallenger]

Any word? It was originally November 1st, then it was the 2nd, and now it is the 5th. What's the plan?

[vonski]

Any word? It was originally November 1st, then it was the 2nd, and now it is the 5th. What's the plan?

Lets hope it is the fifth! :roll:

[Hawk]

Any word? It was originally November 1st, then it was the 2nd, and now it is the 5th. What's the plan?

Lets hope it is the fifth! :roll:

Realistically with the 2 inches of rain they got yesterday and today, how far do you think they got? I would think not very far. Also look at the extended forecast. 50's next week. They can't make miracles happen. We need cold.

[vonski]

Any word? It was originally November 1st, then it was the 2nd, and now it is the 5th. What's the plan?

Lets hope it is the fifth! :roll:

Realistically with the 2 inches of rain they got yesterday and today, how far do you think they got? I would think not very far. Also look at the extended forecast. 50's next week. They can't make miracles happen. We need cold.

If the system had been ready, they easily could have made some whales on Jester the beginning of last week. They have the same 3 day window coming up. So, they can make some big whale piles. Killington did not open and made big deep piles to survive the warm last week which allowed them to get open. With the limited capacity in the first place making big piles would be helpful. The rain event yesterday was cold rain and snow up top. Looking at the Mad river glen web cam, the natural near the bottom survived for most of the day.

So, had they started at midnight on the first, they could have had some nice piles up top waiting to be pushed around.
However, they were only blowing out the mice on the first. They were not ready to go on the first.

It may be due to the construction and the pipe work along with the HG pump house still needing some work.

[Hawk]

Any word? It was originally November 1st, then it was the 2nd, and now it is the 5th. What's the plan?

Lets hope it is the fifth! :roll:

Realistically with the 2 inches of rain they got yesterday and today, how far do you think they got? I would think not very far. Also look at the extended forecast. 50's next week. They can't make miracles happen. We need cold.

If the system had been ready, they easily could have made some whales on Jester the beginning of last week. They have the same 3 day window coming up. So, they can make some big whale piles. Killington did not open and made big deep piles to survive the warm last week which allowed them to get open. With the limited capacity in the first place making big piles would be helpful. The rain event yesterday was cold rain and snow up top. Looking at the Mad river glen web cam, the natural near the bottom survived for most of the day.

So, had they started at midnight on the first, they could have had some nice piles up top waiting to be pushed around.
However, they were only blowing out the mice on the first. They were not ready to go on the first.

It may be due to the construction and the pipe work along with the HG pump house still needing some work.
I just think that your expectations are to high with this snowmaking system. I know I am going to get blasted by someone on this but here's my take. Plain and simple, they do not have the air capacity to blow a ton of snow. I won't talk about water because I do not know what the new pipes have done on the capacity side. SV made a decision to go with these environmentally friendly guns that need less air. They also have made the decision to not upgrade or add compressors to increase the capacity. Now I do not know if they figured that with the new guns they didn't need as much. Well that is a long way up there and a large amout of pipe to fill. I do not think that the new guns produce as good as the old but one thing is for sure without more capacity you can only do so much. Take Sunday River for instance. They can produce 90,000 cubic feet of air in one minute to 110 psi. K is even larger. The result is they can blow 3 loops at once. That is 6 trails!!! I have been watching the Bush these last coupe of years and they can hardly get one trail done at a time. I would think that thier capacity is probably 1/10 that. Now it might be the the old infrastructure may be failing and they can not put more stress on the system. I just wish that they took snow making a little more seriously. That is all. Fire away. :wink:

[gostan]

Agree with it or not, with the weather forecast for this week it just did not make either fiscal sense or operational sense to spend the $$ to blow snow. The combination of heavy rain and varying temperatures was/is a show-stopper- like it or not. A little patience and I am sure that the snow guns will be blasting.

[vonski]

Agree with it or not, with the weather forecast for this week it just did not make either fiscal sense or operational sense to spend the $$ to blow snow. The combination of heavy rain and varying temperatures was/is a show-stopper- like it or not. A little patience and I am sure that the snow guns will be blasting.

It was fiscal for all that matters we understand that. But when your the only major resort besides Jay to not start making snow the beginning of this week there has to be other factors playing into the mix. Jay also has lower elevation terrain that they open first being Stateside giving them more of an excuse.

But to not have the guns ready to go up on HG the beginning of this week was not right. The piles would have held up and Jester could be almost done as they usually take about four days to get it done and they had three good days if they had gotten going on Halloween and gotten out of the box to start a day earlier. Also would have been making piles on top of some snow that was already up there.

So, go ahead and blast me as well! But just my 2 cents! I am not a critic of the mountain but a flatlander wanting to see a few more trails open at Turkey day!

[vonski]

the neighbor down the road is saying 6 to 8 up top. So, again, I don't see how the snow if it had been made earlier in the week up top would have been gotten melted by this 1-2 inch rain event that was below 2500 feet.

[HowieT2]

If I recall our previous discussions of this issue correctly, this is where the fan guns would be most beneficial because they are better than the lowE guns at marginal temperatures. Furthermore, since they have there own compressors, the lack of air capacity in the system as a whole would not be an issue. I wonder if they can just rent those suckers.

[random_ski_guy]

I could be persuaded otherwise, but it seems to me Win has made the right call holding off on the snowmaking at this point. Its seems like blowing snow too early only to see 50% or more lost a week later is not a financially sound move. Once the calendar moves past Nov 15th, it should be no-holds-bar. Until then, I think you need a bit more solid snowmaking weather than what they have had.

As for fanjets, I could see a few scattered about the base area, otherwise, the trails on the rest of the mountain are too narrow...for the most part, in my opinion. Plus, fanjets are incredibly expensive, so the upfront investment is high and given the more moving parts, i think the maintenance/lifespan is an issue too.

[HowieT2]

I could be persuaded otherwise, but it seems to me Win has made the right call holding off on the snowmaking at this point. Its seems like blowing snow too early only to see 50% or more lost a week later is not a financially sound move. Once the calendar moves past Nov 15th, it should be no-holds-bar. Until then, I think you need a bit more solid snowmaking weather than what they have had.

As for fanjets, I could see a few scattered about the base area, otherwise, the trails on the rest of the mountain are too narrow...for the most part, in my opinion. Plus, fanjets are incredibly expensive, so the upfront investment is high and given the more moving parts, i think the maintenance/lifespan is an issue too.

agreed that they only make sense in certain spots, like the base area, confluence of steins, birdland, grinder, jester and the ripcord, paradise bailout junction. But these are big, high traffic areas where a couple of fan guns could go a long way.
As for cost, yes they are expensive compared to regular guns, but if the system is constrained by lack of air capacity, the fan guns may be the least expensive way to increase capabilities.

[Tin Woodsman]

I just think that your expectations are to high with this snowmaking system. I know I am going to get blasted by someone on this but here's my take. Plain and simple, they do not have the air capacity to blow a ton of snow. I won't talk about water because I do not know what the new pipes have done on the capacity side. SV made a decision to go with these environmentally friendly guns that need less air. They also have made the decision to not upgrade or add compressors to increase the capacity. Now I do not know if they figured that with the new guns they didn't need as much. Well that is a long way up there and a large amout of pipe to fill. I do not think that the new guns produce as good as the old but one thing is for sure without more capacity you can only do so much. Take Sunday River for instance. They can produce 90,000 cubic feet of air in one minute to 110 psi. K is even larger. The result is they can blow 3 loops at once. That is 6 trails!!! I have been watching the Bush these last coupe of years and they can hardly get one trail done at a time. I would think that thier capacity is probably 1/10 that. Now it might be the the old infrastructure may be failing and they can not put more stress on the system. I just wish that they took snow making a little more seriously. That is all. Fire away. :wink:

Quoted for truth.

While the quality of the product has come a long way under SV ownership, quantity hasn't progressed nearly as fast. Of course there are good reasons for this - the need for new lifts (GMX, CR), new lodges, and new beds were more urgent and business is about making difficult choices with scarce resources. So it's hard to kill Win for not jumping on this in light of the background. That said, it is absolutely undeniable that the system has serious deficiencies in terms of overall firepower and, as speculated above, it's likely that it is more a matter of compressed air limitations than water. We'll need to see the extent to which this summer's investments help out in terms of hitting "ludicrous speed" on the system during those optimal snowmaking windows early season and after thaws. Only having the ability to blow 1-2 trails on each mountain is problematic when you are in a rush to expand terrain options for the holidays or recover from a thaw/freeze cycle. I would imagine that the mtn's worries about weak pipe in recent years probably kept them from turning it to 11 when they wanted to, in fear of another blowout.

Hopefully this is the next priority on the list for capital investment. Let's all pray for a great snow year, as that has the highest correlation with skier visits, so that SV can justify/afford to drop a couple million into the snowmaking system to begin addressing this.

[random_ski_guy]

I could be persuaded otherwise, but it seems to me Win has made the right call holding off on the snowmaking at this point. Its seems like blowing snow too early only to see 50% or more lost a week later is not a financially sound move. Once the calendar moves past Nov 15th, it should be no-holds-bar. Until then, I think you need a bit more solid snowmaking weather than what they have had.

As for fanjets, I could see a few scattered about the base area, otherwise, the trails on the rest of the mountain are too narrow...for the most part, in my opinion. Plus, fanjets are incredibly expensive, so the upfront investment is high and given the more moving parts, i think the maintenance/lifespan is an issue too.

agreed that they only make sense in certain spots, like the base area, confluence of steins, birdland, grinder, jester and the ripcord, paradise bailout junction. But these are big, high traffic areas where a couple of fan guns could go a long way.
As for cost, yes they are expensive compared to regular guns, but if the system is constrained by lack of air capacity, the fan guns may be the least expensive way to increase capabilities.

Yep, those are all good spots too Howie. The wide, high traffic areas that need a lot of snow and need the snow the most when we have marginal weather.

[Tin Woodsman]

I could be persuaded otherwise, but it seems to me Win has made the right call holding off on the snowmaking at this point. Its seems like blowing snow too early only to see 50% or more lost a week later is not a financially sound move. Once the calendar moves past Nov 15th, it should be no-holds-bar. Until then, I think you need a bit more solid snowmaking weather than what they have had.

As for fanjets, I could see a few scattered about the base area, otherwise, the trails on the rest of the mountain are too narrow...for the most part, in my opinion. Plus, fanjets are incredibly expensive, so the upfront investment is high and given the more moving parts, i think the maintenance/lifespan is an issue too.

agreed that they only make sense in certain spots, like the base area, confluence of steins, birdland, grinder, jester and the ripcord, paradise bailout junction. But these are big, high traffic areas where a couple of fan guns could go a long way.
As for cost, yes they are expensive compared to regular guns, but if the system is constrained by lack of air capacity, the fan guns may be the least expensive way to increase capabilities.

I would go a little further than that.

Both base areas
Times Sq at North
Steins/OG/Birdland junction as mentioned
Ripcord/Pararadise Bailout junction as mentioned
Snowball/Racer's Edge
Spring Fling
Birch Run (at least between the tree islands)
HG base area (you could cover that whole area with one fan gun next to the pump house)
Inverness (get it open earlier for GMVS)
Cruiser
Glen House area and over towards Cruiser
Bottom of Elbow/Bravo down towards Cruiser
Maybe bottom half of Rim Run

High traffic areas and the wide intermediate cruisers trails that are critical routes on the lower 2/3 of the mountain. No need for these things higher up or on anything remotely narrow.

These things generally run about $35K each installed, but that doesn't include the cost of running electric up the trails or ongoing maintenance.

I know the mtn used one on a test basis the last few years. I'd be interested to know what conclusions were drawn from that program. Surely there's a reason that these things are popping up more and more frequently around the country. And in light of the compressor limitations, I would think this would be a bit of a magic bullet in terms of both cost/capital avoidance and environmental friendliness.

[HowieT2]

I just think that your expectations are to high with this snowmaking system. I know I am going to get blasted by someone on this but here's my take. Plain and simple, they do not have the air capacity to blow a ton of snow. I won't talk about water because I do not know what the new pipes have done on the capacity side. SV made a decision to go with these environmentally friendly guns that need less air. They also have made the decision to not upgrade or add compressors to increase the capacity. Now I do not know if they figured that with the new guns they didn't need as much. Well that is a long way up there and a large amout of pipe to fill. I do not think that the new guns produce as good as the old but one thing is for sure without more capacity you can only do so much. Take Sunday River for instance. They can produce 90,000 cubic feet of air in one minute to 110 psi. K is even larger. The result is they can blow 3 loops at once. That is 6 trails!!! I have been watching the Bush these last coupe of years and they can hardly get one trail done at a time. I would think that thier capacity is probably 1/10 that. Now it might be the the old infrastructure may be failing and they can not put more stress on the system. I just wish that they took snow making a little more seriously. That is all. Fire away. :wink:

Quoted for truth.

While the quality of the product has come a long way under SV ownership, quantity hasn't progressed nearly as fast. Of course there are good reasons for this - the need for new lifts (GMX, CR), new lodges, and new beds were more urgent and business is about making difficult choices with scarce resources. So it's hard to kill Win for not jumping on this in light of the background. That said, it is absolutely undeniable that the system has serious deficiencies in terms of overall firepower and, as speculated above, it's likely that it is more a matter of compressed air limitations than water. We'll need to see the extent to which this summer's investments help out in terms of hitting "ludicrous speed" on the system during those optimal snowmaking windows early season and after thaws. Only having the ability to blow 1-2 trails on each mountain is problematic when you are in a rush to expand terrain options for the holidays or recover from a thaw/freeze cycle. I would imagine that the mtn's worries about weak pipe in recent years probably kept them from turning it to 11 when they wanted to, in fear of another blowout.

Hopefully this is the next priority on the list for capital investment. Let's all pray for a great snow year, as that has the highest correlation with skier visits, so that SV can justify/afford to drop a couple million into the snowmaking system to begin addressing this.

why do you think it would cost a couple of million to upgrade the system? if the fan guns costs 50k each, 5-10 of them would add a lot of firepower. Of course that is assuming that the compressor capacity is the limiting factor.

[random_ski_guy]

Nice detail on the fanjet placements Tin.

Aside from more guns, dont they need more electrical capacity and moreover, more water?

They could cover the mtn in guns tomorrow, but I think they have a very shallow water supply which needs to be increased to keep pace.

At the end of the day, I think its been financially wise for Win to focus on the base area improvements and low cost snow making (ie low cost guns and infrastructure with a low cost of operation) for the time being. Too much money is lost to aggressive early skiing snow making plans which get washed out by November and December rains.

[Tin Woodsman]

why do you think it would cost a couple of million to upgrade the system? if the fan guns costs 50k each, 5-10 of them would add a lot of firepower. Of course that is assuming that the compressor capacity is the limiting factor.

If you end up putting them in all the optimal places, you're likely looking at more than just 5-10. Probably more like 50 at full build out , and that's going to cost you $1.75MM up front ($35K each installed). Then there's the cost of running electrical up the trails where you have them installed to power the onboard fans. Beyond that, you're probably still looking at some core infrastructure needs. Keep in mind that the lousy pipe ASC installed in the 90's for the just-replaced trunk lines is largely the same stuff that's up on the mountain. In addition, you may need additional pumping capacity (I have no idea what the bottlenecks are for SB's system - just speculating here) in a world in which you are going to be turning a lot more water into snow with those fans. These systems are pretty complex and interconnected. Materially changing outputs or inputs in one area is going to have knock-on effects in others and removing one bottleneck will expose others that need to be addressed if you want to take full advantage of your investment. Especially for a place like SB, I'd speculated that the up front cost of acquiring the fans would be maybe half the total cost required generate the step change increase in firepower you would expect from them.

[Tin Woodsman]

Nice detail on the fanjet placements Tin.

Aside from more guns, dont they need more electrical capacity and moreover, more water?

They could cover the mtn in guns tomorrow, but I think they have a very shallow water supply which needs to be increased to keep pace.
Not sure about either of those. In light of the new trunk lines, I'm not sure if water is an immediate bottleneck. As for electrical, I think you'd expect a slightly lower overall consumption even with a greater output. While the fans require dedicated electrical connections, you aren't paying to compress air, cool it down, and get it up the hill - that's a pretty energy-intensive process me thinks. Again, I don't know the details, so this is all speculation.



At the end of the day, I think its been financially wise for Win to focus on the base area improvements and low cost snow making (ie low cost guns and infrastructure with a low cost of operation) for the time being. Too many money is lost to aggressive early skiing snow making plans which get washed out by November and December rains.
Agreed. Going for an early opening isn't SB's market, or at least that's what they've decided isn't their market. Sure they could be a contender if they had any desire to do so - Mt. Ellen has the ideal set-up in terms of lift access, elevation and aspect - but the focus is on opening at LP for better or for worse (for worse, IMHO). If that's the case, then making early snow with a marginal medium/long range forecast doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Better to keep their powder dry for the next, presumably longer, window when they need to throw everything they have at getting snow in place for scheduled opening day. My problem with them isn't a lack of early opening like SR or K-Mart. Rather it's the inability to expand terrain in the early season or recover from thaw/freeze mid-season due to lack of a first-class system. In short, I'd rather have them focus on ensuring a better quality product when they know skiers will be there rather than striving for a minimal product when skiers might not be there in October/early November.

[HowieT2]

why do you think it would cost a couple of million to upgrade the system? if the fan guns costs 50k each, 5-10 of them would add a lot of firepower. Of course that is assuming that the compressor capacity is the limiting factor.

If you end up putting them in all the optimal places, you're likely looking at more than just 5-10. Probably more like 50 at full build out , and that's going to cost you $1.75MM up front ($35K each installed). Then there's the cost of running electrical up the trails where you have them installed to power the onboard fans. Beyond that, you're probably still looking at some core infrastructure needs. Keep in mind that the lousy pipe ASC installed in the 90's for the just-replaced trunk lines is largely the same stuff that's up on the mountain. In addition, you may need additional pumping capacity (I have no idea what the bottlenecks are for SB's system - just speculating here) in a world in which you are going to be turning a lot more water into snow with those fans. These systems are pretty complex and interconnected. Materially changing outputs or inputs in one area is going to have knock-on effects in others and removing one bottleneck will expose others that need to be addressed if you want to take full advantage of your investment. Especially for a place like SB, I'd speculated that the up front cost of acquiring the fans would be maybe half the total cost required generate the step change increase in firepower you would expect from them.

so a couple of million for a full build out (of course we are both talking out of our arses because what do we really know). But I was talking about just adding some firepower to get LP up and running for opening. 5-10 fans would make a huge difference especially at this time of year, since they are better at the marginal temperatures.
I think Win had touched on the experiment with the demo fan (which is still being used judging by recent photos), indicating that they decided not go that way for now.

also, no complaints that they haven't started making snow yet. While it would be psychologically uplifting to see snow flying, they have proved in the past to know what they are doing and when to do it. Besides, I'm stuck in NY until at least turkey day so who cares about the 20th.

[Tin Woodsman]

so a couple of million for a full build out (of course we are both talking out of our arses because what do we really know). But I was talking about just adding some firepower to get LP up and running for opening. 5-10 fans would make a huge difference especially at this time of year, since they are better at the marginal temperatures.
Not sure I agree. If you are only investing in 5-10 for high-traffic zones and base areas, the primary benefit isn't going to be the ability to open sooner around this time of year. That's b/c they typically focus on Jester>Downspout and fan guns at the base aren't going to impact that calculus. Now as you get deeper into the season (late November/early December) and you want to open open down at 1600', then that's a bit of a different story, though I'd argue you'd be better served covering a key run or three with fans as long as you're making the investment in them anyway. Who knows the real numbers though.


I think Win had touched on the experiment with the demo fan (which is still being used judging by recent photos), indicating that they decided not go that way for now.
I only recall that they liked what they saw enough to keep the fan around - I don't think it's a demo anymore. Deciding not to go that way for now could just be a matter of timing/priorities as opposed to some decision on the merits of fans vs. no fans.

[random_ski_guy]

I suspect one of the questions Win would raise in consideration of a massively expanded snowmaking capacity is: marginal benefit. How many more skiers/riders would the new snowmaking system generate over the present system? Now thats obviously a very tricky question that we'll never really know the answer too.

My guess is that for most snow years a massive new snowmaking system would make little difference on the skier visits. What little additional traffic it does generate might not even cover the additional operating cost of the system. I understand that kind of thinking runs counter to ski economics 101, but the bush is not your typical mountain. The throngs that ski the high output snowmaking mtns such as okemo and sunday river are unlikely to switch to the bush for if they up the snowmaking ante in a big way. Instead, they are going to find the bush when they are ready for something less vanilla, with fewer people and more natural beauty. I say leave the early season snowmaking wars for others.

That all said, the bush could use a little more snowmaking which could be dispatched in December (like Tin said) to meet the challenges of the mid season thaws. Oh, just a little be more firepower.

[Hawk]

Do you have any idea how many people go to Sunday River just for the snow making and dependability? I will clue you in. Most of them. You only have to look at the skier visits to understand the importance. I guess you have never skied at Sugarbush after a rain/freeze event. ;-)

[random_ski_guy]

Hawk, I agree, for nearly all mountains in the northeast, the front story and perhaps the only relevant story is snowmaking. How much and how fast can a mtn lay it down is what a lot of skiers care about. I often ski Jimiy Peak in the berkshires of Mass over Catamount because of snowmaking. Same in southern VT, the snowmaking kings routinely get my money while the laggards dont.

What I am trying to say (if not daring to say because it flies in the fact of ski-nomics 101) is that Sugarbush is different and the calculated move to forgo a massive snowmaking system with high capacity in marginal weather (ie temps above 20) may be paying off.

Skier visits are flat and have been flat for two decades. If Sugarbush is going to go head long into the snowmaking wars to battle it out with Stratton, Okemo, Killington and Sunday River then I think they would come out the loser...at least initially. The reps of these other long established snowmaking capitals is so ingrained into the skiing masses that I think it would take a long time to get the masses to pay attention. I'm just one idiots humble opinion, but I think Sugarbush could blow and blow and blow and skier visits wouldnt increase enough to offset the costs. There is no doubt skier visits would increase, but again, I think it would take years before it moved the needle on the bottom line. In the meantime it could negatively affect the bottomline, perhaps in a big way.

Win is clearly a savvy guy. Its interesting that his focus has been less about snowmaking (especially when compared to other mtns) and more about everything else such as the return of the 'year round resort' and new base facilities. Win hasn't neglected snowmaking outright, it just hasnt been the centerpiece like it is elsewhere. The mountain doesnt seemed to be suffering for it economically. With a season average of 269 inches a year, Sugarbush in unique in that it can rely a bit on mother nature in a way only Stowe, Mad River, Smuggs and Jay can (Sunday River only gets 167 inches, all the mts in NH run 150 inches of less). Furthermore, while Sunday River is an ice box, the NH mountains more routinely see rain and warmer temps than northern VT.

Lastly, I think Sugarbush may have realized that non passholders (ie me) ski a certain number of days a year. Extending the season on either end seems to mostly benefit the pass holder, while serving to only shift, but not increase the number of days I ski.

[Treeskier]

Fly in the ointment!

I skied Killington on Wed. and going to Sunday River tomorrow. I would ski at Sugarbush if it was open. Ironically we have the best system for early skiing. North...look at Killington. they had to build a set of 264 stairs so you can hike up to down load. North is all set up. When it was the early choice under Clineal/ASC we had lots of skier come and it also tells people we are reliable and ready for your Thanksgiving and Christmas vacations. Our system now, at least for Thanksgiving, is questionable at best. And again this year we did not make snow on that first good cold late Oct/early Nov cold stretch. Because of technical difficulties. Ugg. I do believe snow making does separate the big boys from the rest. And we want to be a big boy.

Doing my part of snow dancing. Snow is in the forcast for Sunday into Monday.

Treeskier

[random_ski_guy]

But Tree, arent you a pass holder? Early season skiing seems to benefit passholders and not the mtn's bottomline. Thats just my stupid opinion. :) Sure, Sunday River and Killington are picking up the die hards like yourself, but this early season jumpstart is fleeting. It will soon be December and then the diehards return to their home mountains.

When you get into December and January, Sugarbush certainly could use more snowmaking firepower to resurface the mountain after a rain/freeze cycle. There is no arguing that issue. Its just a small matter of money and return on investment.

[Xskier]

So I still dont get why a mountain that spends so little on snow making charges so much?

[gostan]

Guys, remember that Tree needs to make up for the 50 days he missed last season. If the 100' hill in Saxonville up the street from his home had snowmaking,(& if he could get there in time through the local road construction) then he would be there on Monday. :P

RSG, your point about "using more snowmaking firepower to resurface the mountain after a rain/freeze cycle" is extremely valid and definitely warrants the mountain's investment as the return in the form of decent to better snow conditions after crappy weather in midseason is an absolute necessity.

[Hawk]

RSG, I hear what you are saying but I think that you are not understanding the total bennefit of the snowmaking. It's not just to open early and stay open late. People that ski at the snowmaking mountains ski there for the dependability. My point was more that mountains like Sunday River and K can basically recover from a rain event in a couple of days. Yes in 2 to 3 days SR can have 10 to 15 trails fully covered, groomed in in fine mid winter condition. This is the absolute reason why most people ski there. Dependability! My entire family (5 Sisters and Kids) basically go there and not SB because they have experienced the week after a rain storm. Several times I have had some of them up on Christmas week, Feb Vacation or MLK week and they have left saying they couldn't believe how icy it was. Then I have to listen to the comments of how SR would have been beter.

Make no mistake, if we had that ability to recover we would get more skier visits. You can bank on it. Me, I left Sunday River and all my friends for the powder and woods of SB. That decision was the right one because I do not particularly care for groomers. But what I come here for is not what 90% of skiers care for. So that is why I say we need the snow making upgrade.

That said, Win has made a decision to put his capital into the basic facilities that we also desarately needed. You can't do everything and I can totally respect that. I just hope that maybe in the future we could make do some upgrades and at least focus on a percentage of trials that make sence. It might take a few years to catch on but once people do they will come back.

[slatham]

Well, my intention of starting this thread was the short-term snowmaking plan, but the discourse on the long-range plan has been good. Here are my 2 cents:

The reliability - via snowmaking - of the other mountains mentioned is real. We have a group of 20-30 people (w/kids) that takes a Presidents week trip each year, and we have seen Mt Snow recover from pouring rain to awesome skiing on 50%+ of the mountain in just a couple of days. I know that SB that week was not very good, except for the trail or two where they could make snow. This has a major impact of where we will go each year (pushing for SB this year but my family may be flying solo). A mountains snowmaking reputation is more important than the early season skiing, but the fact that you have early season skiing builds that reputation!!! To look at early Nov skiing based only skier visits during that time period is to miss the point.

Second, as mentioned, SB HAS THE BEST EARLY SEASON SET UP!!! The top of North is perfect, as we all remember from days past. I fully understand Wins logic for not doing that anymore, but I do hope that at some point - with higher priority items done (ie. base area work) Win will be able to push for North in early Nov AND Lincoln Peak for Thanksgiving, thus making hard core early season skiers happy, and allow the Claybrook set to have skiing out the back door (assuming the winters not like last year where this would all be moot).

But of course the most import thing is to expand snowmaking capacity to allow more of the mountain to have quality skiing quickly after a rain/freeze!!

In the meantime, what's the current short-term snowmaking plan, and what were the technical difficulties mentioned above?

And remember, a big dump of natural snow makes all the snowmaking talk moot so THINK SNOW

:lol:

[skibum1321]

we have seen Mt Snow recover from pouring rain to awesome skiing on 50%+ of the mountain in just a couple of days.
Everybody knows that there is no such thing as awesome skiing at Mt. Snow. My perspective is that I really don't give a damn about snowmaking because I would rather not waste the time to drive up if I'm just going to be skiing groomers anyway. Even if I lived in the Valley, I could think of better things to do than ski groomers. I do, however, understand that it is important to other people.

[win]

Just a couple of points. This summer we have made a major investment in replacing about 2.5 miles of snowmaking pipe. This was a $1.5million investment in the future. While it is not visible to all, it ensures the integrity of our system for decades. Having the secondary water source at Mount Ellen will more than double our capacity there from what we had last year.

We had the guns on yesterday, but we had a fuse blow last night (not the type you get at the hardware store), and we had to shut down until we can get a replacement this week. It doesn't look like very good temperatures snowmaking in the Northeast until late in the week. Hopefully, we will see better temperatures as we get into next weekend.

[boze]

but we had a fuse blow last night (not the type you get at the hardware store), and we had to shut down until we can get a replacement this week.

Appreciate the update, doing my cold temp dance
Hope the folks also pick up a spare fuse for 'next time' :wink:

[vonski]

but we had a fuse blow last night (not the type you get at the hardware store), and we had to shut down until we can get a replacement this week.

Appreciate the update, doing my cold temp dance
Hope the folks also pick up a spare fuse for 'next time' :wink:

+1

[summitchallenger]

Thanks for the update. I was wondering why there was no activity when I drove up to LP tonight at 7pm and with the thermometer in my car saying 32 F. :shock:

[Tin Woodsman]

Treeskier, Hawk and Slatham nail it.

It's not about extending the season (though ME has the best set up in the East for that if they wanted), it's about ensuring reliable conditions in the early season and after thaw/freeze events. That's when you need the horsepower to turn it to 11 and cover everything as quickly as possible. Even if you aren't going for an early opening, you spend most of your snowmaking money Nov 15 to Jan 15. If you're able to hit the mtn hard starting mid-November so as to ensure a decent product by Thanksgiving and a high-quality product (washouts permitting) by X-Mas, that will matter to a lot of uncommitted skiers who prioritize that in their mtn choices.

Moreover, it should be pointed out that the final phase of the initial LP Village build out includes an additional, quite large, residential component in unpaved parking area north of the paved portion of the LP lot. If you want to sell out that building, you're not going to do it solely by offering a pure Vermont experience - you're going to need reliable conditions for the type of people who would throw down that sort of coin.

Hard to criticize Win at all for prioritizing things as he did with the base area and new lifts, and this year's investment in the trunk line is a great and necessary first step (though "doubling capacity vs. last year" just returns it to its original capacity before the line from the Van Loon pumphouse crapped out, right?). Now that the key pieces of the base area are in place, the latter building with other peoples money, it will be interesting to see how/if/when they choose to tackle this issue.

[random_ski_guy]

All I am trying to say is that it has been bold of Sugarbush to not invest heavily in snowmaking and instead invest elsewhere. Its contrarian and it really hasnt failed them.

[vonski]

It always seemed that the capacity at North was better than South. Maybe that is simply due to size, but with North line being repaired. I would expect North to recover that much better this year.

[HowieT2]

Treeskier, Hawk and Slatham nail it.

It's not about extending the season (though ME has the best set up in the East for that if they wanted), it's about ensuring reliable conditions in the early season and after thaw/freeze events. That's when you need the horsepower to turn it to 11 and cover everything as quickly as possible. Even if you aren't going for an early opening, you spend most of your snowmaking money Nov 15 to Jan 15. If you're able to hit the mtn hard starting mid-November so as to ensure a decent product by Thanksgiving and a high-quality product (washouts permitting) by X-Mas, that will matter to a lot of uncommitted skiers who prioritize that in their mtn choices.

Moreover, it should be pointed out that the final phase of the initial LP Village build out includes an additional, quite large, residential component in unpaved parking area north of the paved portion of the LP lot. If you want to sell out that building, you're not going to do it solely by offering a pure Vermont experience - you're going to need reliable conditions for the type of people who would throw down that sort of coin.

Hard to criticize Win at all for prioritizing things as he did with the base area and new lifts, and this year's investment in the trunk line is a great and necessary first step (though "doubling capacity vs. last year" just returns it to its original capacity before the line from the Van Loon pumphouse crapped out, right?). Now that the key pieces of the base area are in place, the latter building with other peoples money, it will be interesting to see how/if/when they choose to tackle this issue.

I think we all agree that SV has done a super job prioritizing their capital improvements. The new buildings were needed and will be a bigger enhancements than an upgrade to snowmaking capacity. The pipe replacement this summer is proof that they are not neglecting the snow making issue (1.5M for new pipe, wow). Certainly no complaints that I can see. The importance of snowmaking is the reliability of the product so that people can confidently book vacations. Nobody wants to put down a couple grand on a vacation and then show up and there is no snow. SB has an advantage because of the amount of natural that it gets especially compared to southern VT and Maine, but recovering from the inevitable thaws is vital.

Win-this snowmaking discussion occurs regularly, and lots of theories (system is lacking air capacity and/or water and/or electricity) and numbers (hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars) are bandied about. Are we anywhere close to reality or is that not something to discuss publicly. TIA

[summitchallenger]

All I am trying to say is that it has been bold of Sugarbush to not invest heavily in snowmaking and instead invest elsewhere. Its contrarian and it really hasnt failed them.

The truth is that we've been pretty lucky. We had cold weather and snow at the beginning of the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 seasons that let things get going. That came off the rails last season and so far this one when we have had some relatively short windows of cold air that SB either could not or would not make snow. The end result as we know last season was 2 or 3 lost weekends at the front end.

[Tin Woodsman]

Win-this snowmaking discussion occurs regularly, and lots of theories (system is lacking air capacity and/or water and/or electricity) and numbers (hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars) are bandied about. Are we anywhere close to reality or is that not something to discuss publicly. TIA
I think that by default we know there's an air compression limitation first and foremost. Otherwise, they wouldn't bring in those rented compressors at $250K/month when they need to expand terrain and base depths rapidly. That said, water is still an issue even if/when you solve the air limitation. We know this b/c Win wrote here two years ago that ASC only partially dug out the snowmaking pond to the fully-permitted size and that they were thinking of digging new ponds instead of expanding the current one b/c of the vagaries of the regulatory climate.

An added complication for SB is that they essentially have two separate systems, a set-up that's incredibly inefficient and more costly than you'd like. You're duplicating infrastructure and resources while being prevented from allocating your full firepower to where it's needed, when it's needed. For example, wouldn't it be great if you could pipe over water and air from ME in November and early December when you're running full speed to get LP open as quickly as possible? For that critical time frame, the entire ME system is essentially a stranded asset to the extent it's not being used to prepare for the ME opening day. We know that the ASC master plan included pipes for connecting the two systems following the SBX liftline. I would imagine that would be both expensive and time consuming from a regulatory standpoint.

So you're looking at a big laundry list of needs:

1) More air (but not generated by dirty diesel)
2) More water
3) Connect the two systems (if possible)
4) Additional pumps at one or both mtns (probably)
5) On hill infrastructure in terms of guns or, in the case of fan gun installs, electrical

That will run into the double digit millions if you wanted to address all of it and it doesn't include upgraded controls to automate things or the replacement of the lousy ASC pipe still on the hill. There shouldn't be any surprise at to why Win as chosen to grab only the long-hanging fruit (low-e guns, trunk line replacement) in favor of other priorities.

[random_ski_guy]

All I am trying to say is that it has been bold of Sugarbush to not invest heavily in snowmaking and instead invest elsewhere. Its contrarian and it really hasnt failed them.

The truth is that we've been pretty lucky. We had cold weather and snow at the beginning of the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 seasons that let things get going. That came off the rails last season and so far this one when we have had some relatively short windows of cold air that SB either could not or would not make snow. The end result as we know last season was 2 or 3 lost weekends at the front end of last season.

Summit, I was referrring to the big picture. We'll never be privy to the internal numbers, but if the steady and incremental offseason improvements made under Win's era are any indication, the failure to focus the annual capital improvements budget on snowmaking hasn't hurt the bottomline. If it wasnt working out, I thnk would we have seen a serious re-direction by now. You are right, Sugarbush has been a bit lucky with weather until last year. Frankly, between the weak economy and the bad weather last season, I was shocked to see the mtn go forward with the two new lodge buildings and the new snowmaking pipe. Both projects are remarkable in this economic climate.

Like others have said, now that the base area at LP is in good shape (for now and 30 years+ with good maintenance), it will be interesting to see just how the mtn invests in snowmaking in the coming years. Hopefully they will have the capital to make a frozen splash.

New topic; whats the next project SB should turn its attention too?

[Tin Woodsman]

New topic; whats the next project SB should turn its attention too?
I don't think the answer is a new topic - snowmaking.

Until they see a big bump in skier days, you can't justify significant terrain expansion, though I could see a lot of gladed runs/stashes coming on map, plus an expansion of the official lines into Slide Brook.

Regardless, with the hard part of the USFS plan now being in place, the actual glading or thinning is pretty easy/cheap, especially since Atkinson and Co are already on the payroll.

I'd like to see them throw $1-2MM/yr, as the capital budget allows, at the snowmaking system. No need to take it all at one time. New ponds one year. A dozen fan guns in key spots the next. That sort of thing.

[HowieT2]

Win-this snowmaking discussion occurs regularly, and lots of theories (system is lacking air capacity and/or water and/or electricity) and numbers (hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars) are bandied about. Are we anywhere close to reality or is that not something to discuss publicly. TIA
I think that by default we know there's an air compression limitation first and foremost. Otherwise, they wouldn't bring in those rented compressors at $250K/month when they need to expand terrain and base depths rapidly. That said, water is still an issue even if/when you solve the air limitation. We know this b/c Win wrote here two years ago that ASC only partially dug out the snowmaking pond to the fully-permitted size and that they were thinking of digging new ponds instead of expanding the current one b/c of the vagaries of the regulatory climate.

An added complication for SB is that they essentially have two separate systems, a set-up that's incredibly inefficient and more costly than you'd like. You're duplicating infrastructure and resources while being prevented from allocating your full firepower to where it's needed, when it's needed. For example, wouldn't it be great if you could pipe over water and air from ME in November and early December when you're running full speed to get LP open as quickly as possible? For that critical time frame, the entire ME system is essentially a stranded asset to the extent it's not being used to prepare for the ME opening day. We know that the ASC master plan included pipes for connecting the two systems following the SBX liftline. I would imagine that would be both expensive and time consuming from a regulatory standpoint.

So you're looking at a big laundry list of needs:

1) More air (but not generated by dirty diesel)
2) More water
3) Connect the two systems (if possible)
4) Additional pumps at one or both mtns (probably)
5) On hill infrastructure in terms of guns or, in the case of fan gun installs, electrical

That will run into the double digit millions if you wanted to address all of it and it doesn't include upgraded controls to automate things or the replacement of the lousy ASC pipe still on the hill. There shouldn't be any surprise at to why Win as chosen to grab only the long-hanging fruit (low-e guns, trunk line replacement) in favor of other priorities.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think they've rented the diesel compressors since they installed the low-E guns. They didn't install the low-e guns throughout the system so they could theoretically reduce the need for air further. And if low-E guns require less air and fan guns none, perhaps increasing capacity doesn't require more air.

I would agree that in an ideal world having the LP and ME systems interconnected would be great. However, given the cost of just replacing the pipes along the roads done this summer, the cost of laying new pipe through slidebrook, must be astronomical. Money would likely be better spent elsewhere.
You may be right about all of the above, but I think we are all basing our opinions on assumptions which may be incorrect.

[Tin Woodsman]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think they've rented the diesel compressors since they installed the low-E guns. They didn't install the low-e guns throughout the system so they could theoretically reduce the need for air further. And if low-E guns require less air and fan guns none, perhaps increasing capacity doesn't require more air.
Check out the bottom of this post from Win two years ago. From what he wrote, it seems like it would still be an option if they really needed it. To some extent, air still seems like a bottleneck, though with the new low-e guns, perhaps not as badly as a few years back.
http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=1657&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=snowmaking&start=22



I would agree that in an ideal world having the LP and ME systems interconnected would be great. However, given the cost of just replacing the pipes along the roads done this summer, the cost of laying new pipe through slidebrook, must be astronomical. Money would likely be better spent elsewhere.
Agreed. Probably better bang for the buck elsewhere, but that will remain a long-term competitive disadvantage mitigating against having a first-class system until and unless it's fixed.


You may be right about all of the above, but I think we are all basing our opinions on assumptions which may be incorrect.
Of this I have no doubt.

[Hawk]

I will add a couple of things to support an informed opinion and not a guess:
- I have looked inside the compressor plant but did not actually count compressors or check the size of the compressors. My opinion is based on what SB employees have told me and my experiences with my freinds at Sunday River who ran night time operations for snow making. I actually took a tour one day after skiing. Thier plant is huge. I saw like 10 massive compressors and they had rented 8 of the portable ones that year. It only looked like SB had 3 or 4 in there but I did not actually get inside the building. And with no natural gas in the area, diesel is the only way.
- You only have to watch the operations at SB and see what they have going for guns to understand that there is an issue with capacity. At peak snowmaking times they only blow one line of guns from top to bottom and seldom have I seen it a complete line all the way down.
- It would be totally non-cost effective to connect the two systems. That is a huge distance and the amount of energy to fill those pipes with air and water would not make sence. Two systems will always be the way for this mountain.
- I also think that SB has electricity limitations from the power company. I remember talking to someone in mountain ops that mentioned this to me. This may have been a temporary thing but they had to shut down durning peak hours for some reason.


Again, I am just hopeful of what the future might bring.

[Benski]

I will add a couple of things to support an informed opinion and not a guess:
- I have looked inside the compressor plant but did not actually count compressors or check the size of the compressors. My opinion is based on what SB employees have told me and my experiences with my freinds at Sunday River who ran night time operations for snow making. I actually took a tour one day after skiing. Thier plant is huge. I saw like 10 massive compressors and they had rented 8 of the portable ones that year. It only looked like SB had 3 or 4 in there but I did not actually get inside the building. And with no natural gas in the area, diesel is the only way.
- You only have to watch the operations at SB and see what they have going for guns to understand that there is an issue with capacity. At peak snowmaking times they only blow one line of guns from top to bottom and seldom have I seen it a complete line all the way down.
- It would be totally non-cost effective to connect the two systems. That is a huge distance and the amount of energy to fill those pipes with air and water would not make sence. Two systems will always be the way for this mountain.
- I also think that SB has electricity limitations from the power company. I remember talking to someone in mountain ops that mentioned this to me. This may have been a temporary thing but they had to shut down durning peak hours for some reason.

I too have heard of electricity restrictions from gmp during times of peak demand.

As for the compressor issue, while this certainly was an issue in the past, I maintain that they haven't rented compressors since they installed the low e guns. And if that is the limitation on the system, then why not replace some of the current guns with the fan guns that have on board compressors? Perhaps that gets back to the electricity issue.

I don't ski at many other resorts, but doesn't it appear that those that have embarked on snowmaking improvements in the last few years have all opted to go the fan gun route???

Again, I am just hopeful of what the future might bring.

[random_ski_guy]

Just some thoughts.


I will add a couple of things to support an informed opinion and not a guess:
- I have looked inside the compressor plant but did not actually count compressors or check the size of the compressors. My opinion is based on what SB employees have told me and my experiences with my freinds at Sunday River who ran night time operations for snow making. I actually took a tour one day after skiing. Thier plant is huge. I saw like 10 massive compressors and they had rented 8 of the portable ones that year. It only looked like SB had 3 or 4 in there but I did not actually get inside the building. And with no natural gas in the area, diesel is the only way. I mean this with all due respect because you seem like more than a cool dude, but no duh Sunday River has a massive compressor system. :) Sunday River was an early adopter of massive snowmaking and marketing campaigns in the 1980s and 1990s under Otten. Otten had the benefit of easy credit markets and the first mover advantage which are no longer unavailable to Sugarbush. The lack of easy credit is probably a good thing as skiing really should be run on a cash basis as much as possible. Its too easy to get over levered and wiped out.



- You only have to watch the operations at SB and see what they have going for guns to understand that there is an issue with capacity. At peak snowmaking times they only blow one line of guns from top to bottom and seldom have I seen it a complete line all the way down. Yep, we all have noticed. Its hard to not see the limitations of the Sugarbush system. Its very limited in temps above 20 degrees (because of the lack of compressed air and fanjets) and not that grandoise under optimal conditions. It would be cool if we actually knew their gallons per minute pumping capacity at LP and ME. That would be an interesting kernal of knowledge for us to toy around with.

[random_ski_guy]

It would be totally non-cost effective to connect the two systems. That is a huge distance and the amount of energy to fill those pipes with air and water would not make sence. Two systems will always be the way for this mountain. I agree with you. It would be cool if someone from the industry could share an opinion here. It seems to me pushing compressed air or water pumping capacity between the too mountains wouldnt be very efficient as too much energy would be lost in distance between the two mtns. My guess is that you are right, but hey, maybe someone knows otherwise.



- I also think that SB has electricity limitations from the power company. I remember talking to someone in mountain ops that mentioned this to me. This may have been a temporary thing but they had to shut down durning peak hours for some reason. Yeah, I feel like this has been a real issue raised in the passed around here. I recall on a couple ocassions in seasons past Green Mtn Power didnt have the capacity in the valley for Sugarbush to run all its lifts, lodges and snowmaking simultaneously. At some point, something will need to be done about it if Sugarbush is going to take another step forward. Of course, Sugarbush could bring in diesel generators (as many mtns do) but that has its own issues and Win has taken a stance against this.




Again, I am just hopeful of what the future might bring. Me too, its gone pretty well so far. If they can survive last year and have money to spend in the offseason, then that is a pretty good sign. Glad we are not Ascutney (current situation looks terminal), Bolton Valley or Magic Mtn, in that, every year is an absolute struggle for survival.

[Tin Woodsman]

I will add a couple of things to support an informed opinion and not a guess:
- I have looked inside the compressor plant but did not actually count compressors or check the size of the compressors. My opinion is based on what SB employees have told me and my experiences with my freinds at Sunday River who ran night time operations for snow making. I actually took a tour one day after skiing. Thier plant is huge. I saw like 10 massive compressors and they had rented 8 of the portable ones that year. It only looked like SB had 3 or 4 in there but I did not actually get inside the building. And with no natural gas in the area, diesel is the only way.
Agreed. Lack of compressed air and, possibly, lack of ability to pump water to more than one line at a time. Not sure if that latter limitation, to the extent it exists, is lack of water in total coming from their sources or simply a shortfall in ability to get what they have up the hill.



- It would be totally non-cost effective to connect the two systems. That is a huge distance and the amount of energy to fill those pipes with air and water would not make sence. Two systems will always be the way for this mountain.[quote]
OK. I would have thought it would have been beneficial b/c the amount of power isn't so great when you're keeping things at the same elevation and the ability to double team the systems on one mountain would make up for any losses. That was just raw speculation on my part so I'll defer to people with informed opinion, let alone fact.

[quote]
- I also think that SB has electricity limitations from the power company. I remember talking to someone in mountain ops that mentioned this to me. This may have been a temporary thing but they had to shut down durning peak hours for some reason.
We've definitely heard this from Win. The problem is that during optimal snowmaking windows when its nice and cold, power demand spikes in the Valley with homeowners trying to stay warm. This leads GMP to cut off SB during these critical periods. SB has the ability to "buy through" that cut off, but at astronomical rates. Part of the reason I'm always harping about fan guns is that, to this outsider, it appears they may offer the prospect of killing two birds with one stone: circumventing the compressed air bottleneck and reducing overall power consumption for a given amount of production. This belief is substantiated by quotes like this form the Snow Summit website:


Not counting water pumps and hill lighting power usage, about 9,600 kilowatts are needed to run all Snow Summit’s air compressors while only about 3,000 kilowatts are needed to run all 70 of its fan guns. While the traditional compressed air guns can produce snow in marginal conditions when the fan guns can’t, we are increasing our use of fan guns because they can produce a lot more snow in most conditions for the same amount of power.

I must be missing something here (not at all surprising) b/c at least on the surface I don't see the downside to exploring this technology further. Lots of capital up front, and ongoing maintenance headaches to be certain, but it's not rocket science, and 20-30 of these things would go a long way in critical spots.

[skierdon]

Any snow being made? The forecast does not look promising.

[win]

We are ready to go, but Mother Nature is not. I doesn't look like we will have good snowmaking temperatures until next week. This time of year one oftens gets inversions where it is colder in the Valleys than on the Mountains. This morning was a case in point as Warren Village was colder than the top of Lincoln Peak. I think it is doubtful that we will have enough cold days and nights to open on the 20th, but I am not giving up hope yet, even if we have to download. However, I think Thanksgiving it more likely. Stay turned. Our snowmaking crew is itching to work.

While skiers and riders are disappointed with the weather, Pizzgalli is thrilled as they are pouring the final concrete walkways and finalizing the paving in the parking lots this week. That should wrap up most of the outside work. Landscaping and final outside coat of paint will be completed next spring.

[atkinson]

A moving picture is worth how many words?

Check out the Sugarbush snow farmers cultivating the first flakes of Winter 2010-2011! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXYYJukAfOA)

John

[random_ski_guy]

In college I worked the overnight shift; 6pm to 6am making snow a ski area in the Berkshires for one three week period inbetween semesters. That was one of my most favorite jobs of all time. Nothing more fun to me than tweaking water/air ratios and shifting guns around to optimize coverage. I was definately the geeky one of the team. The others cared about snow quality, but I cared more..maybe too much..if that is possible.

[skierdon]

Well, a late-starting snowy winter is better than an early-starting winter with little snow. Fingers-crossed.

[summitchallenger]

Thanks for the video. That means a lot to see that the guns were going!

[gostan]

The weather does not appear to look to good for snowmaking this week. :?:

[Hawk]

Looking like Thursday they will finally get good temps. Doesn't apear to be enough time to open next weekend.

[random_ski_guy]

the long range weather model shows the potential for some more substantial cold air moving in over thanksgiving. Until then, looks like the northeast will sit under a frontal boundary which could go either way.

http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/loop/gfsx_1000_loop.html

[HowieT2]

the long range weather model shows the potential for some more substantial cold air moving in over thanksgiving. Until then, looks like the northeast will sit under a frontal boundary which could go either way.

http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/loop/gfsx_1000_loop.html

If I understand correctly, beyond day 7 the GFS is worthless.

[random_ski_guy]

You may be right Howie...but in the years I have been watching the 10 day model I have found it accurate (more accurate than a coin flip anyway) for general weather patterns such as big warms ups, cool downs, a precipitation event 7 days out, etc. The details are completely unreliable, the big picture...well, better than a coin toss...so I continue to watch it.

Over the past three weeks the 10 day model has shown us nothing. Not one time has it shown meaningful cold air advancing south until the past two iterations. So lets hope it holds up.....a chance is better than none.

[HowieT2]

You may be right Howie...but in the years I have been watching the 10 day model I have found it accurate (more accurate than a coin flip anyway) for general weather patterns such as big warms ups, cool downs, a precipitation event 7 days out, etc. The details are completely unreliable, the big picture...well, better than a coin toss...so I continue to watch it.

Other the past three weeks the 10 day model has shown us nothing. Not one time has it shown meaningful cold air advancing south until the past two iterations. So lets hope it holds up.....a chance is better than none.

I hope you're right. This weather is making me thirsty!

[summitchallenger]

Methinks we are not skiing this weekend. Hope I am wrong......

[skierdon]

I would be thankful just to be able to ski in November at this point.

[gostan]

I knew that I should have booked that extremely expensive Thanksgiving flight to Utah.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1270/5180982939_96417afefa_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gostan/5180982939/)

Lifites getting ready for opening day this Friday!

[Hawk]

Summit, I think I will go out on a limb to say there is no way you will be skiing at Sugarbush unless you hike and ski what remains.
Don, there is always Sunday River and Killington if you wnat to ski in November. I went last week and it was great. Hell I skied at Sunday River in October this year and it was tremendous. We had the mountain to ourselves pretty much and I skied with all my old friends. Hell we sat at the top mid day in the sun drinking Long Trail. ;-)
Also most of the experts are saying that the next 10 days are a tought forcast for the Northeast because the pattern is in flux and there is blocking going on. The only thing they agree on is that the cold is building in Canada and will come out way next week. There will also be some cold this week.

[random_ski_guy]

Howie, bad news...the overnight run has flip-flopped pushing the northeast into the warm side of a major storm around nov 26t/27thh (like you said, its unreliable!).

Lets hope tomorrow's model flip-flops again.

http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/10d/gfsx_1000_10d.html

[random_ski_guy]

Summit, I think I will go out on a limb to say there is no way you will be skiing at Sugarbush unless you hike and ski what remains.
Don, there is always Sunday River and Killington if you wnat to ski in November. I went last week and it was great. Hell I skied at Sunday River in October this year and it was tremendous. We had the mountain to ourselves pretty much and I skied with all my old friends. Hell we sat at the top mid day in the sun drinking Long Trail. ;-)
Also most of the experts are saying that the next 10 days are a tought forcast for the Northeast because the pattern is in flux and there is blocking going on. The only thing they agree on is that the cold is building in Canada and will come out way next week. There will also be some cold this week.

Hawk, what's your take on mountains like Jackson Hole with 70 inches received todate and a mid mountain base of 50 inches already and yet they are sticking with their plan to open Saturday October 27th? Aside from Abasin, Loveland and Copper, looks like most of the mountain west remains stubbornly closed despite good earlier season snow (ie Telluride, Vail, JHole, Big Sky).

[Hawk]

My take is that most of the Western skiers are fickle and don't realy think about sking until December. It is also hard for the larger areas to open without a good amount of skiers. The operating costs are to high. This is historically what happens out there. Also some of the resorts are restricted by the leases they hold with the goverment. I guess we are a bad example here in the east. We chomp at the bit with any sign of snow. But actually we(us hardcore types ;-)) are the minority even here in the east.

[HowieT2]

Howie, bad news...the overnight run has flip-flopped pushing the northeast into the warm side of a major storm around nov 26t/27thh (like you said, its unreliable!).

Lets hope tomorrow's model flip-flops again.

http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/10d/gfsx_1000_10d.html

I admittedly have very little weather knowledge, but from my observations over the last few years, I believe there is always a mega fantasy storm on the GFS 10 days out and the models usually predict the pattern change happening before it actually does. So I wouldn't be surprised to see the models pushing out this pattern change. I'll get excited when they show something within D7.

Hate to say it but I think we'll lucky if SB is open before the first weekend in december.

[vonski]

Howie, bad news...the overnight run has flip-flopped pushing the northeast into the warm side of a major storm around nov 26t/27thh (like you said, its unreliable!).

Lets hope tomorrow's model flip-flops again.

http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/10d/gfsx_1000_10d.html

I admittedly have very little weather knowledge, but from my observations over the last few years, I believe there is always a mega fantasy storm on the GFS 10 days out and the models usually predict the pattern change happening before it actually does. So I wouldn't be surprised to see the models pushing out this pattern change. I'll get excited when they show something within D7.

Hate to say it but I think we'll lucky if SB is open before the first weekend in december.

I hope not! I want to go up at thanksgiving. I need to get my Xmas Tree!!!!
I think they will down load if they can that weekend if need be! but lets keep dancing!

[win]

Our weather forecast shows the temperatures falling into snowmaking range at the summit Thursday evening, so hopefully that will happen and remain there. I am reasonably optimistic about Thanksgiving at this stage. If we have to download we will, but if we have the temperatures to come down we would prefer that. Five days and nights in the low twenties would allow for a lot of snow to be made on Upper Jester and Downspout. Those are the first trails where we will make snow so one can get to Heaven's Gate.

[slatham]

Pattern changes always take longer than the models initially indicate, and typically don't change over night but rather evolve. In our case the first evolution is the moderate cold wave starting Wed night and now looking like it lasts until Sunday with highs at the summits looking ok for round the clock snowmaking. This is a bit colder, and lasts a bit longer, than the models had predicted. As this is the 2-5 day range they seem to be settling on this solution. Maybe a few inches of natural too!

We then get an annoying warm up early next week, though not the obnoxious warm we've had lately. This is the price we pay for what could be a new "set" in the pattern. Quoting Joe Bastardi from Accuweather:

"Severe cold will drive south into the western U.S. during the weekend and early next week, but then quickly comes out with Arctic air reaching the East Coast next Wednesday. By that time, the strongest blocking will be over northeastern North America and Greenland and that sets the stage for the trough in the means near the East coast the first two weeks of December with the chance of a strong negative AO/NAO combo."

Time to get aggressive making snow! The longer range forecast, which is obviously subject, is that after a below normal December, things flip. So get that base down while you can!

:D

[random_ski_guy]

today's 10 day model is tending colder than yesterdays....

shows less of a warm up ahead of that storm/cold front around tues 23rd and the possibility of a more substantial storm around sat/sun 27th/28th.

http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/loop/gfsx_1000_loop.html

[shadyjay]

It's just before midnight, starting 11/18, and the guns are going!

Fingers crossed that they keep going for the next several days and into next week .... I'm dying to get back to work!

Pray for Snow and Cold!!!!!

[Tin Woodsman]

BTW, not sure if anyone saw this, but the replacement of the trunk lines wasn't the only investment in the snowmaking system this summer. Here's some new info from the latest Win's Word:


We have also purchased the HKD towers we had on trial on Spring Fling last winter, and we have retrofitted 80 Ratnik snow guns that will be fired-up when temperatures allow.

Haven't they had tower guns on Spring Fling for a while now?

[Hawk]

BTW, not sure if anyone saw this, but the replacement of the trunk lines wasn't the only investment in the snowmaking system this summer. Here's some new info from the latest Win's Word:


We have also purchased the HKD towers we had on trial on Spring Fling last winter, and we have retrofitted 80 Ratnik snow guns that will be fired-up when temperatures allow.

Haven't they had tower guns on Spring Fling for a while now?

Not exactly sure but I think he is saying that they bought more of those HKD high efficency heads for the towers.

[slatham]

The last temp report from Mount Mansfield (at around midnight) was 24 degrees, and the 'Bush web shows summit temp at 23. Can anyone confirm whether the guns are on? Snowmaking needs to be aggressive to get open for Thanksgiving.

THINK SNOW (and COLD) :D

[summitchallenger]

It's just before midnight, starting 11/18, and the guns are going!

Fingers crossed that they keep going for the next several days and into next week .... I'm dying to get back to work!

Pray for Snow and Cold!!!!!

Here's slatham's confirmation.

[HowieT2]

BTW, not sure if anyone saw this, but the replacement of the trunk lines wasn't the only investment in the snowmaking system this summer. Here's some new info from the latest Win's Word:


We have also purchased the HKD towers we had on trial on Spring Fling last winter, and we have retrofitted 80 Ratnik snow guns that will be fired-up when temperatures allow.

Haven't they had tower guns on Spring Fling for a while now?

So what does that mean?

[random_ski_guy]

Good News: colder temps are here (as you know) and should stick around to Monday

Bad News: still have that warm up ahead of that next round of cold air from Monday to Wednesday

Good News: the 10 day model has been consistent is showing a solid cold air mass rolling into the entire eastern seaboard starting thanksgiving day morning. Seems to me this airmass would be cold enough to kick off some decent lake effect snow...we shall see. Best yet, the air is projected to stick around through 11/28 with no signs of a breakdown.

[HowieT2]

Good News: colder temps are here (as you know) and should stick around to Monday

Bad News: still have that warm up ahead of that next round of cold air from Monday to Wednesday

Good News: the 10 day model has been consistent is showing a solid cold air mass rolling into the entire eastern seaboard starting thanksgiving day morning. Seems to me this airmass would be cold enough to kick off some decent lake effect snow...we shall see. Best yet, the air is projected to stick around through 11/28 with no signs of a breakdown.

Agreed. Should be solid for snowmaking this weekend and then again starting turkey day for an extended period. Would be very helpful to get some natural next weekend. doing the dance at the desk.

[shadyjay]

Just stepped outside to take my dog out and saw the guns going on Upper Jester.

Also natural snow last night up on the hill. Again, upper mountain is covered in white, down to about the bottom of Upper Birdland/Murphy's. These areas were brown yesterday due to the rain.

[win]

We had a good night and day. The new retrofitted ratnik land guns allowed us to have nearly 33% more in use than what we could have had last year at these temperatures. More snow for the same energy. Tonight the temperatures are lower, so we have shifted our focus to Downspout anticipating that the temperatures will rise later in the weekend and we may have better temperatures at the summit then. Our goal is to get open for Thanksgiving and we will have a better idea if we can make it by Monday morning. It does appears as of today that we may have some warmer temps on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, but that is still a long way off. After that it does appear that the weather pattern is changing for the better.

Rumble and I are off early in the am to shoot some video of our snowmaking and will post that on Win's Word.

If you are around this Saturday come to the joint Sugarbush/Mad River Glen party at The Big Picture starting at 5pm on Saturday and then join us to celebrate Charlie Brown's 75th birthday in the Gate House at 8pm (Shhh! It is a secret and he doesn't read the blogs!)

Time Saturday, November 20 · 8:00pm - 11:30pm

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Location Sugarbush South Gatehouse accross from Timbers
top of Sugarbush Access Rd Warren, Vermont 05674

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Created By Rita Maranda Brown

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More Info Sugarbush is honoring Charlie Brown on his 75th as "Man of the Year"
There will be Hors D'ourves, Birthday Cake, Live Music, DJ, A movie of Charlies life, dancing and lots of FUN- Open to anyone spread the word but don't tell Charlie it's a Surprise !!

[HowieT2]

solid info. Thanks, Win. I take it that these new guns (or existing guns with new nozzles) require less air and that's why they use less energy and that allows for increased capacity with the existing compressors???

[win]

correct

[vonski]

Word has it that they are making on upper Birdland! Could we be getting top to bottom!?

[Plowboy]

Guns are going on Elbow this morning. 8)

[jwt]

Blowing the Gate too: http://www.madriverweathercam.com:8888/view/viewer_index.shtml?id=791

One can now pan and zoom Norms web cam. Happy Thanksgiving.

[vonski]

Blowing the Gate too: http://www.madriverweathercam.com:8888/view/viewer_index.shtml?id=791

One can now pan and zoom Norms web cam. Happy Thanksgiving.

Tottally cool!

[jwt]

Have not forgotten you Vonski - Think it was you who directed me to Jerusalem - asked Win about it a couple of years ago - said he did it once - had the sh** eatin' grin on his face that said he reeeeeealy liked it. Not that I am advocating out of bounds skiing - as I told Treeskier Monday regarding the guests that we take secret places - ' we can take you there but then we'll have to kill you.'

[vonski]

Have not forgotten you Vonski - Think it was you who directed me to Jerusalem - asked Win about it a couple of years ago - said he did it once - had the sh** eatin' grin on his face that said he reeeeeealy liked it. Not that I am advocating out of bounds skiing - as I told Treeskier Monday regarding the guests that we take secret places - ' we can take you there but then we'll have to kill you.'

Definitely hoping for some good snows this year to be able to make the trip to Jerusalem again.

[win]

It might seem like Upper Birdland because of the wind. We are blowing on Jester, Downspout and Upper Organgrinder today at LP and Upper Rim Run, Elbow at ME. It is warming up late tonight and tomorrow through late on Friday, so we will not be top to bottom this weekend and snowmaking will have to take a pause. It looks like sowmaking will be able to resume late Friday after we get some rain. The forecast has been changing, so we will see what happens. Hoping it stays a bit cooler than it looks like right now on Friday.

[vonski]

Not top to bottom. No biggie. I'd rather have Grinder open anyways! Dancing that the front stays snow up top!