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TimKeogh
09-07-2010, 01:34 PM
Sugarbush $56
Okemo $55
Killington $52
Stratton $50

Xskier
09-08-2010, 08:55 AM
sugarbush is leading the way. Not liking that trend the last few years. Thanks for the update!!

TimKeogh
09-08-2010, 10:20 AM
I struggle with how many to buy (has to be done by Sept 24th) when I don't know the retail prices yet.
And I have been stuck with extra tickets refunded at less than face that I could not sell to other members.

Selling to non-member is a clear violation of membership rules.

jwt
09-08-2010, 01:48 PM
I look at this like the difference between good and great, the difference between say a Longhorn Steak House and Capital Grill or Ruths Chris. - maybe that is a stretch, but in fact it is between 2-11% higher ( if math is correct).

It also is a farther drive - far more in gas say $10-$20 r/t depending on your mode of transport. We all know it is worth it, but the general public may not.

I don't know if it is still this way, but Flatton used to not allow or discount buses, because they did not want their customer base to have to put up with long lines ( and maybe the whole stigma of bus trips - i dunno).

I fully understand the economy and how it could make a family buy lower - but those of us who get here, know it will be less cost for a lower grade experience - barring a snowless winter and the lack of snowmaking - which is always the wildcard in this business.

Either way, you know what is at stake Tim, and only you can make the financial decision for your family. If it doesn't snow and you choose K-Mart or Okemo - you win both ways - if we get copoius amounts of powder. . . . . . . . isn't it a lot like life, this deciding where to ski pre-winter?

mattlucas
09-08-2010, 02:00 PM
Can tickets be given to family?

win
09-12-2010, 07:21 AM
You have to be a member of a Council and present a membership card to be eligible to receive at ticket. They are not transferrable.

Tin Woodsman
09-16-2010, 05:41 PM
Here are all the prices:

Sugarbush: $56
Okemo: $55
Killington: $52
Stowe: $52
Mt. Snow: $52
Stratton: $50
Jay Peak: $41
Bromley: $41
Smugglers Notch: $40
Magic: $37
Burke: $36
Pico: $34
Bolton Valley: $33

It's really quite a shame that SB has chosen to be so aggressive with this program in recent years. It's quite frankly shocking to see it $4 more than Stowe (not necessarily known for giving out discounts) and a full $15 more than Jay Peak. I'm sure some will argue how superior SB is to those areas, but it's starting to get to the point where SB is really putting the squeeze on the guy who can only get in 10-15 days/year. There's no reason, IMO, for SB to be at the top of this particular list.

Hawk
09-17-2010, 07:30 AM
I don't know. I'm not from CT and I have a pass. Not that shocking to me. Skiing is expensive. Go figure. :wink:

Seriously and all kidding aside. There are a number of deals out there from all kinds of mountains. People that don't buy passes and just buy these deals usually shop around and get the best deal. So if Sugarbush only dropped thier deal down go get under Stow, K and Okemo, people would just go to Jay or Stratton. How many more people will this bring in? Not that many.

I would suggest coming out for the trimming party and getting a free ticket in exchange for hard work. Hell that's what I do and I have a pass.

Tin Woodsman
09-17-2010, 11:58 AM
I don't know. I'm not from CT and I have a pass. Not that shocking to me. Skiing is expensive. Go figure. :wink:

Seriously and all kidding aside. There are a number of deals out there from all kinds of mountains. People that don't buy passes and just buy these deals usually shop around and get the best deal. So if Sugarbush only dropped thier deal down go get under Stow, K and Okemo, people would just go to Jay or Stratton. How many more people will this bring in? Not that many.

I would suggest coming out for the trimming party and getting a free ticket in exchange for hard work. Hell that's what I do and I have a pass.

Unfortunately, logistics prevent me from doing that this year. It would otherwise be right in my wheelhouse.

I'm just wondering why SB has more aggressive than everyone else in pushing up the prices on this discount ticket, to the point where they are well clear of their main competition. Since I started purchasing these tickets in the early 2000s, the price has increased something on the order of 50-60%, massively outpacing inflation in the economy as a whole and the ski industry in particular.

To take your position to its logical extension, why shouldn't SB just push the price of these tix to $70 if demand is allegedly that inelastic?

chuck
09-17-2010, 12:51 PM
SB offers a premium experience encompassing all aspects of "a day on the slopes". They should have a premium price, and not be heavily discounted. Consumers will pay a premium for superior product and service, it is the value you receive for your "hard earned dollar". Discounting will only lessen that premium.

Tin Woodsman
09-17-2010, 02:10 PM
SB offers a premium experience encompassing all aspects of "a day on the slopes". They should have a premium price, and not be heavily discounted. Consumers will pay a premium for superior product and service, it is the value you receive for your "hard earned dollar". Discounting will only lessen that premium.

Yes it is a premium experience, but is it the best in VT? Sure the people on this board think so, otherwise we wouldn't be here, but there are a lot of people who are going to shop on price. Also, places like Stratton, Okemo and Stowe claim to offer a premium experience as well. Is SB "super premium"? If discounting diminishes the brand, then why participate in the CT ski council program at all? Why offer deep discounts for the North only pass? You can still offer a premium experience while attempting to reach out to different market niches.

djd66
09-17-2010, 04:05 PM
First off, Sugarbush offers many values that other area do not offer and a much better ski experience. (i'm an ex K emlpoyee + skier of 15 yrs) I was checking the SB site, you know they offer free passes to family of people in the armed services. VERY GENEROUS! My kids ski for free until they are 12. You can buy a season pass at ME for +-$600,.... Personally I think the CSC deal is over rated. You have to try and figure out how many days you will ski at the beginning of the year, pay for all the passes up front,... and then if you don't happen to ski all the days you could get stuck with worthless tickets.

Tin Woodsman
09-17-2010, 05:06 PM
First off, Sugarbush offers many values that other area do not offer and a much better ski experience. (i'm an ex K emlpoyee + skier of 15 yrs) I was checking the SB site, you know they offer free passes to family of people in the armed services. VERY GENEROUS! My kids ski for free until they are 12. You can buy a season pass at ME for +-$600,.... Personally I think the CSC deal is over rated. You have to try and figure out how many days you will ski at the beginning of the year, pay for all the passes up front,... and then if you don't happen to ski all the days you could get stuck with worthless tickets.

There's no doubt the CSC tix require some forethought, but when you can't get up to the promised land enough to justify the season pass, it's a pretty good value. I've usually had success in selling my unused tix back for a reasonable portion of their original purchase price. Of course, the deal is becoming increasingly over-rated as the CSC price and the regular lift ticket price for SB converge at light speed.

ski_resort_observer
09-17-2010, 05:21 PM
First off, Sugarbush offers many values that other area do not offer and a much better ski experience. (i'm an ex K emlpoyee + skier of 15 yrs) I was checking the SB site, you know they offer free passes to family of people in the armed services. VERY GENEROUS! My kids ski for free until they are 12. You can buy a season pass at ME for +-$600,.... Personally I think the CSC deal is over rated. You have to try and figure out how many days you will ski at the beginning of the year, pay for all the passes up front,... and then if you don't happen to ski all the days you could get stuck with worthless tickets.

In addition, the Bush is the only resort, that I know of that offers the college SP price to recent graduates. There are also many other expenses/give-aways that most of the public are not aware of. This summer, as we have in the past, about 80 Fresh Air Kids and their host familes got free tickets for all the activities, anytime they showed up is just one example.

If you live in the valley your hopefully aware of the support the Bush, both montetary and service, give local programs, events and activities. The numbers are mind boggling everything from financial/service support to the big month long Arts Festival to something small like free lift tiks to the local volunteer fire dept.

My point is that pricing at the Bush or any other business takes alot more into consideration than just the inflation rate. I realize that most resorts also support their community and other valid causes but in my personal view, not to the extent the Bush does., especially in view of the economy. A friend of mine calls it the Ben & Jerry business model.

I think Jay has to charge a low price due to it's location, Stowe is owned by a company that almost went bankrupt and invested a huge amount of money on real estate just when the market hit the skids, they need revenue which equates to more guests, price points that balance their high SP/day tik price. Okemo is still paying for Jackson Gore and the purchase of Crested Butte. Okemo is now doing around 600,000 skier visits whish is pretty amazing IMHO. They need a pricepoint that will keep the bodies coming. Killington's new owners walked into a no-win situation IMHO. Skier visits are down to around 700,000 from over a million just a few years ago. They desparatetly need bodies, business on the access rd is way down as well. Stratton is owned by a company that actually did go bankrupt, the company that bought them is not doing great financially either. They need the revenue. I don't think the Bush falls into any of these situations.

Course, nothing will cure any resorts financial woes like a 300+ snowfall year.
As mentioned I think $56 is a good deal, Just my personal 2 cents

jwt
09-17-2010, 06:22 PM
Unless there is little natural snow.

Not sure about the B&G comparison - they tried to do the 7X Rule ( highest paid people can never make more than 7X the lowest paid) back then the CEO couldn't grab more than$ $ 100K when Min wage was $7. Did not work (for obvious reasons).

All the 'good neighbor business' is great ONLY if the business (neighbor) makes money. When they don't they end up like the aforementioned Chapter 7 & 11 folks, and that does the neightborhood no good at all.

Tin Woodsman
09-17-2010, 11:59 PM
I think Jay has to charge a low price due to it's location, Stowe is owned by a company that almost went bankrupt and invested a huge amount of money on real estate just when the market hit the skids, they need revenue which equates to more guests, price points that balance their high SP/day tik price. Okemo is still paying for Jackson Gore and the purchase of Crested Butte. Okemo is now doing around 600,000 skier visits whish is pretty amazing IMHO. They need a pricepoint that will keep the bodies coming. Killington's new owners walked into a no-win situation IMHO. Skier visits are down to around 700,000 from over a million just a few years ago. They desparatetly need bodies, business on the access rd is way down as well. Stratton is owned by a company that actually did go bankrupt, the company that bought them is not doing great financially either. They need the revenue. I don't think the Bush falls into any of these situations.

Course, nothing will cure any resorts financial woes like a 300+ snowfall year.
As mentioned I think $56 is a good deal, Just my personal 2 cents
What - and the Bush doesn't need to keep the bodies coming? Come on now. Win is on here constantly exhorting us to bring friends so we can drive up skier visits and see more improvements. I'm pretty sure the GMX, new C-Rock double, snowmaking improvements, new groomers, and new base village didn't come for free, even if the latest bit does use other people's money. Don't kid yourself - they'd love to have more customers too.

I'm sure Win would love to finally move ahead with the VH double replacement. Or perhaps drop a few million into the snowmaking system so it's on par with the competition. Or maybe even execute some of the grandiose plans contained in the forestry health document they submitted to the USFS. That will all take money. Quite a bit of it in fact.

http://mma.lohudblogs.com/files/2008/05/kool-aidman.jpg

gostan
09-18-2010, 04:36 AM
I think Jay has to charge a low price due to it's location, Stowe is owned by a company that almost went bankrupt and invested a huge amount of money on real estate just when the market hit the skids, they need revenue which equates to more guests, price points that balance their high SP/day tik price. Okemo is still paying for Jackson Gore and the purchase of Crested Butte. Okemo is now doing around 600,000 skier visits whish is pretty amazing IMHO. They need a pricepoint that will keep the bodies coming. Killington's new owners walked into a no-win situation IMHO. Skier visits are down to around 700,000 from over a million just a few years ago. They desparatetly need bodies, business on the access rd is way down as well. Stratton is owned by a company that actually did go bankrupt, the company that bought them is not doing great financially either. They need the revenue. I don't think the Bush falls into any of these situations.

Course, nothing will cure any resorts financial woes like a 300+ snowfall year.
As mentioned I think $56 is a good deal, Just my personal 2 cents
What - and the Bush doesn't need to keep the bodies coming? Come on now. Win is on here constantly exhorting us to bring friends so we can drive up skier visits and see more improvements. I'm pretty sure the GMX, new C-Rock double, snowmaking improvements, new groomers, and new base village didn't come for free, even if the latest bit does use other people's money. Don't kid yourself - they'd love to have more customers too.

I'm sure Win would love to finally move ahead with the VH double replacement. Or perhaps drop a few million into the snowmaking system so it's on par with the competition. Or maybe even execute some of the grandiose plans contained in the forestry health document they submitted to the USFS. That will all take money. Quite a bit of it in fact.

http://mma.lohudblogs.com/files/2008/05/kool-aidman.jpgIn my non-professional novice opinion, bringing friends to SB for ski trips helps to pay for such improvements by an infinitesimal denominator. The entire skiing industry is down numbers wise and has been for the past few years and the economy of today makes running any business, especially a ski mountain, even more difficult. Discounted ski tix programs like the subject here are certainly a good attempt to bring more skiers to the mountain. But the real answers for growth are: (i) snow, snow, snow; (ii) advertising and education and discounted learn to ski programs to bring new skiers to the sport, and (iii) continuation of enhancing the overall ski experience to gain more of the existing skiers from the competition.

A real concern is that the ski population is graying, balding, and growing older. Childrens' programs, college programs and any ideas of the similar ilk are a wonderful use of resources. But my real concern here is that the greater Boston area (as well as other NE metropolitan areas) , for one, is seeing the fleeing of the young adults due to high RE prices and cost of living and the diminishing job market, and this does not even bode well for keeping the newest skiers actively on the slopes for the upcoming future of the ski industry in NE. If high percentages of the college graduates (who are the real future of skiing in NE) are seeking jobs that do not exist in NE by relocating to other parts of the country, then, a methodology of bringing them back to SB and other NE ski areas, must be implemented.

summitchallenger
09-19-2010, 07:01 PM
What - and the Bush doesn't need to keep the bodies coming? Come on now. Win is on here constantly exhorting us to bring friends so we can drive up skier visits and see more improvements. I'm pretty sure the GMX, new C-Rock double, snowmaking improvements, new groomers, and new base village didn't come for free, even if the latest bit does use other people's money. Don't kid yourself - they'd love to have more customers too.

I'm sure Win would love to finally move ahead with the VH double replacement. Or perhaps drop a few million into the snowmaking system so it's on par with the competition. Or maybe even execute some of the grandiose plans contained in the forestry health document they submitted to the USFS. That will all take money. Quite a bit of it in fact.

http://mma.lohudblogs.com/files/2008/05/kool-aidman.jpg

So selling tickets at a loss will pay for expansion plans and expenses? How do you figure that?

Tin Woodsman
09-19-2010, 09:13 PM
What - and the Bush doesn't need to keep the bodies coming? Come on now. Win is on here constantly exhorting us to bring friends so we can drive up skier visits and see more improvements. I'm pretty sure the GMX, new C-Rock double, snowmaking improvements, new groomers, and new base village didn't come for free, even if the latest bit does use other people's money. Don't kid yourself - they'd love to have more customers too.

I'm sure Win would love to finally move ahead with the VH double replacement. Or perhaps drop a few million into the snowmaking system so it's on par with the competition. Or maybe even execute some of the grandiose plans contained in the forestry health document they submitted to the USFS. That will all take money. Quite a bit of it in fact.

http://mma.lohudblogs.com/files/2008/05/kool-aidman.jpg

So selling tickets at a loss will pay for expansion plans and expenses? How do you figure that?


Who besides you says that they are selling tickets at a loss?

As SRO so helpfully detailed, resorts like Okemo, Stratton and Stowe have made massive investments in recent years or are owned/run by bankrupt companies, yet their prices for this program are cheaper. Does SB have the highest cost structure in all of VT?

What doesn't make sense to me is why SB is pretty far out of step with its market positioning on the pricing of this product as compared to its standard day and season pass products. They've been more aggressive in increasing prices than any other resort participating in this program, which is a shame. I don't think there is any problem pointing that fact out but I'm certainly not advocating selling tickets at a loss.

Besides, in light of the massive fixed costs in running a ski area, I'm not sure how they could sell a ticket at a loss anyway. The incremental cost of serving one individual skier on any given day is infinitesimal. The fact of the matter is if Win could somehow bring in 100,000 extra skier visits at $40 a head, the vast majority of that would flow right to the bottom line and I'm sure he'd do it in a heartbeat. Maybe they'd need to pay the parking lot guys a few extra hours, but they're not going to keep the food service places open longer. They're not going to make more snow. They're not going to run the lifts longer. They're not going to groom any more. I guess I just don't see the base that someone needs to go and hold a bake sale for Summit Ventures if they sell these tickets at $50-52, consistent with their market positioning, vs. $56.

summitchallenger
09-20-2010, 05:47 PM
As SRO so helpfully detailed, resorts like Okemo, Stratton and Stowe have made massive investments in recent years or are owned/run by bankrupt companies, yet their prices for this program are cheaper.

Yes they may be cheaper, but ever wonder why they are in financial trouble?



Does SB have the highest cost structure in all of VT?

No, but they are aiming to be a sustainable business.


What doesn't make sense to me is why SB is pretty far out of step with its market positioning on the pricing of this product as compared to its standard day and season pass products. They've been more aggressive in increasing prices than any other resort participating in this program, which is a shame. I don't think there is any problem pointing that fact out but I'm certainly not advocating selling tickets at a loss.

So all this complaining is about one discount program that probably benefits a relatively small group including you? Sorry to hear that the price went up for you. Have you considered the (a) Season pass route; (b) SugarCard Route; (c) Promo Route (all January midweeek days at Mount Ellen were $39 IIRC) or (d) just buying on Sundays? I understand that this one program is not cheap anymore, but as to the logic, only Win and company can answer that. If this option is too much, consider other routes.

summitchallenger
09-20-2010, 05:54 PM
And though the price went up, be glad that you get a discount. There's nothing that says that you are entitled to it. If enough people complain about this and do the proverbial "look the gift horse in the mouth" then there might not be a deal next year. Beyond that, I guess you should contact Win or someone to express your concerns.

chuck
09-20-2010, 06:16 PM
+1 and Well said Summitchallenger

vonski
09-20-2010, 06:57 PM
Ellen pass was only $525 or so with tax before 5/2/10 if you ski more than 8 days it is paid for if you pay full price. Discount tickets equate to 10 times. With the ability to ski at LP prior to Ellen opening why even consider the CT council tickets for Sugarbush. If your a 20 day skier, that likes variety, then get the cheaper tickets for the other places but still get a pass. You can ski vacation week at Ellen without out any lines, or any day for that matter.
It even gave one a discount at Ski Sundown in Ct last year. I skied several nights for under 20 bucks last year.
I try to ski 30 days and still don't get bored with Ellen!
So, I guess if you consider the other deals available at the bush it is very affordable!
Just my two cents!

Tin Woodsman
09-20-2010, 08:01 PM
Yes they may be cheaper, but ever wonder why they are in financial trouble?
Come on man - really? Is it really your supposition that Stowe is in trouble due to underpricing this product by $4 instead of the fact its corporate parent, of which it represents less than 1/10th of 1%, wrote billions of dollars of exotic mortgage insurance contracts it didn't understand? It's Stowe's fault?

Do you similarly believe that Intrawest went bust b/c of losing out on a few dollars from the CSC product rather than the fact that its private parent borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars to finance the purchase of Intrawest and was leveraged heavily to the vacation real-estate market when that sector hit the skids?

As for Okemo, I never said they were in trouble. SRO implied they need the money b/c they're paying of Jackson Gore (unlikely - it's largely sold out) or b/c the Muellers are paying off their purchase of Crested Butte.

So one of you is saying that the other resorts need the money, so they are selling the CSC tickets at a lower rate. You are saying that the lower rate is why these resorts may be in trouble to begin with. While those positions are inherently in conflict, I guess the common unifying factor is that you feel it's OK for SB to be the most aggressive out of all VT resorts in pushing pricing up for those people who like skiing Lincoln Peak mid-winter but who can't afford a season pass.



No, but they are aiming to be a sustainable business.
Now you're moving the goal posts - where's your support for the notion that selling these tix cheaper would be done at a loss? Moreover, if the business wasn't sustainable as is, then where are they getting the money for all the improvements we've seen this year? By all accounts, they've enjoyed several banner years in the last 3-4.



So all this complaining is about one discount program that probably benefits a relatively small group including you?
What do you mean by "all this complaining"? I made one post about on this forum. What a rabble rouser I am! I've spent the rest of the time here just responding to wildly conflicting and highly improbable defenses of higher pricing for a sport where value opportunities are increasingly rare.



Sorry to hear that the price went up for you. Have you considered the (a) Season pass route (b) SugarCard Route; (c) Promo Route (all January midweeek days at Mount Ellen were $39 IIRC) or (d) just buying on Sundays? I understand that this one program is not cheap anymore, but as to the logic, only Win and company can answer that. If this option is too much, consider other routes.

Those options are, respectively, 1) far too expensive for how much I can ski b) not that great a deal c) can't make it up midweek when you have a job and d) why would I drive 5 hours each way from the NYC metro just to ski one day? A complete waste of time. You are right in that only Win and company can answer that. If he feels like doing so, I'm sure he'll chime in here. If not - no big deal. This board is a place for discussion of all things SB, so I thought it worth mentioning here. I honestly don't understand why it's so controversial to register disappointment about an increase in the pricing for this product that is dramatically more aggressive than all of SB's peers and competitors, including ones that have higher pricing for all other products.

chuck
09-20-2010, 08:53 PM
It's not so controversial. Just nothing better to do in between conditioning workouts till the snow drops.

Benski
09-20-2010, 09:22 PM
Yes they may be cheaper, but ever wonder why they are in financial trouble?
Come on man - really? Is it really your supposition that Stowe is in trouble due to underpricing this product by $4 instead of the fact its corporate parent, of which it represents less than 1/10th of 1%, wrote billions of dollars of exotic mortgage insurance contracts it didn't understand? It's Stowe's fault?

Do you similarly believe that Intrawest went bust b/c of losing out on a few dollars from the CSC product rather than the fact that its private parent borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars to finance the purchase of Intrawest and was leveraged heavily to the vacation real-estate market when that sector hit the skids?

As for Okemo, I never said they were in trouble. SRO implied they need the money b/c they're paying of Jackson Gore (unlikely - it's largely sold out) or b/c the Muellers are paying off their purchase of Crested Butte.

Uhhh we are talking about a dollar difference with okemo and 3-5 with the other majors. Not a big deal either way.
Can we get some snow already?
So one of you is saying that the other resorts need the money, so they are selling the CSC tickets at a lower rate. You are saying that the lower rate is why these resorts may be in trouble to begin with. While those positions are inherently in conflict, I guess the common unifying factor is that you feel it's OK for SB to be the most aggressive out of all VT resorts in pushing pricing up for those people who like skiing Lincoln Peak mid-winter but who can't afford a season pass.



No, but they are aiming to be a sustainable business.
Now you're moving the goal posts - where's your support for the notion that selling these tix cheaper would be done at a loss? Moreover, if the business wasn't sustainable as is, then where are they getting the money for all the improvements we've seen this year? By all accounts, they've enjoyed several banner years in the last 3-4.



So all this complaining is about one discount program that probably benefits a relatively small group including you?
What do you mean by "all this complaining"? I made one post about on this forum. What a rabble rouser I am! I've spent the rest of the time here just responding to wildly conflicting and highly improbable defenses of higher pricing for a sport where value opportunities are increasingly rare.



Sorry to hear that the price went up for you. Have you considered the (a) Season pass route (b) SugarCard Route; (c) Promo Route (all January midweeek days at Mount Ellen were $39 IIRC) or (d) just buying on Sundays? I understand that this one program is not cheap anymore, but as to the logic, only Win and company can answer that. If this option is too much, consider other routes.

Those options are, respectively, 1) far too expensive for how much I can ski b) not that great a deal c) can't make it up midweek when you have a job and d) why would I drive 5 hours each way from the NYC metro just to ski one day? A complete waste of time. You are right in that only Win and company can answer that. If he feels like doing so, I'm sure he'll chime in here. If not - no big deal. This board is a place for discussion of all things SB, so I thought it worth mentioning here. I honestly don't understand why it's so controversial to register disappointment about an increase in the pricing for this product that is dramatically more aggressive than all of SB's peers and competitors, including ones that have higher pricing for all other products.

ski_resort_observer
09-20-2010, 10:05 PM
What - and the Bush doesn't need to keep the bodies coming? Come on now

Of course the Bush or any other business, except maybe Flatbread on a Sat night, wants more customers. The point of the post is about what is done to bring those guests to your resort. You can charge a cheaper price than the others, you can earn more business with superior customer service or quality of product, give a better value.......lots of things. Never said the Bush didn't want more customers.

Tin Woodsman
09-20-2010, 10:42 PM
What - and the Bush doesn't need to keep the bodies coming? Come on now

Of course the Bush or any other business, except maybe Flatbread on a Sat night, wants more customers. The point of the post is about what is done to bring those guests to your resort. You can charge a cheaper price than the others, you can earn more business with superior customer service or quality of product, give a better value.......lots of things. Never said the Bush didn't want more customers.

So is the Bush is bringing guests to the resort via better value or whatever unmeasurable metric you want to use, then why is that not reflected in the prices that most people pay - i.e. the season pass price and day lift ticket rate?

ski_resort_observer
09-20-2010, 11:47 PM
What - and the Bush doesn't need to keep the bodies coming? Come on now

Of course the Bush or any other business, except maybe Flatbread on a Sat night, wants more customers. The point of the post is about what is done to bring those guests to your resort. You can charge a cheaper price than the others, you can earn more business with superior customer service or quality of product, give a better value.......lots of things. Never said the Bush didn't want more customers.

So is the Bush is bringing guests to the resort via better value or whatever unmeasurable metric you want to use, then why is that not reflected in the prices that most people pay - i.e. the season pass price and day lift ticket rate?

Thanks, the unmeasurable metric I personally use is the fact that in the 3 jobs I have had at Bush I get to talk to alot of guests everyday, I don't take a survey but what I hear on a regular basis is great customer service. Just today a customer was amazed that when someones lost disc(disc golf) is turned in we call them to let them we have it.

It's the product, the terrain and we do have some great values in SPs. The College Pass +1, the fact that if an adult buys a SP they get a free pass for their 12 or under child, The Mt Ellen Plus pass, The Sugar Direct card, all the discounts connected to the Adult passes for food, rentals, retail shop are good values.

All this is well and good but the ultimate decision as to whether the Bush meets the requirements, budgets, expectations and preferences is the real unmeasurable metrix.

The snowfall amount is an important factor as well but that, of course, is measurable. :D

Tin Woodsman
09-21-2010, 12:40 AM
What - and the Bush doesn't need to keep the bodies coming? Come on now

Of course the Bush or any other business, except maybe Flatbread on a Sat night, wants more customers. The point of the post is about what is done to bring those guests to your resort. You can charge a cheaper price than the others, you can earn more business with superior customer service or quality of product, give a better value.......lots of things. Never said the Bush didn't want more customers.

So is the Bush is bringing guests to the resort via better value or whatever unmeasurable metric you want to use, then why is that not reflected in the prices that most people pay - i.e. the season pass price and day lift ticket rate?

Thanks, the unmeasurable metric I personally use is the fact that in the 3 jobs I have had at Bush I get to talk to alot of guests everyday, I don't take a survey but what I hear on a regular basis is great customer service. Just today a customer was amazed that when someones lost disc(disc golf) is turned in we call them to let them we have it.

It's the product, the terrain and we do have some great values in SPs. The College Pass +1, the fact that if an adult buys a SP they get a free pass for their 12 or under child, The Mt Ellen Plus pass, The Sugar Direct card, all the discounts connected to the Adult passes for food, rentals, retail shop are good values.

All this is well and good but the ultimate decision as to whether the Bush meets the requirements, budgets, expectations and preferences is the real unmeasurable metrix.

The snowfall amount is an important factor as well but that, of course, is measurable. :D

To be clear, I think the Bush does a fantastic job trying to meet or exceed both customer expectations and industry standards in terms of service and overall guest experience. If I didn't think that, I'd take my business elsewhere. I truly love this place and hope to raise my kids here. But we don't need to bend over backwards to make excuses for things that may rub us the wrong way. You point out some of the great things they do - they can always get better, right? Did they rest on their laurels when they built the new GH lodge and it was clear the bar and storage area were way too small? I was laughed at here when I pointed that out. Did they decide they have nothing to learn about their snowmaking production plan before reconsidering on getting North Lynx open sooner? I was met with a blizzard of excuses and apologists when I raised those issues and while I'm sure I didn't influence the decisions on those fronts, they are human and make mistakes. Habitually defending them even when they are making what seem to be poor or ill-considered decisions doesn't do them any good. I just have a hard time understanding why they've been the most aggressive on the pricing front with this program. There's no need to make stuff up about other resorts' possible motivations or selling lift tickets at a loss in order to engage in a discussion on the issue.

summitchallenger
09-21-2010, 07:46 AM
What do you mean by "all this complaining"? I made one post about on this forum. What a rabble rouser I am! I've spent the rest of the time here just responding to wildly conflicting and highly improbable defenses of higher pricing for a sport where value opportunities are increasingly rare.


I see a lot more bandwith on this issue than one post. Maybe I am missing something, but you are the only one fired up about how this increase is impacting you. Seems like a lot of energy for what, a few dollar increase? Nobody said it was right or wrong and instead have been responding to your points. I just think that acting like you are entitled to a discount and then complaining because Sugarbush is "being overly aggressive" really undermines what you want to do. Sorry it went up for you. Again, contact Win directly.

mattlucas
09-21-2010, 11:39 AM
This thread is too depressing for me, but I'm in the boat that Tin is describing.
I learned to ski at the Bush, worked in the Valley to ski-bum when I was younger,
and just love the mountain. I don't have any problems with the customer service,
I think they do a great job providing a really quality (fun) ski experience.

The extended college pass is a great service. Last years 3 lesson / season pass deal
for newbies was really exciting and innovative, and I practically begged my non-skiing
girlfriend to consider making some of the investment in gear and I would have met her
the rest of the way to make it happen. It was a great idea. (but she declined, regrettably)

But, despite all of this, I will barely ski my favorite mountain this year. I'm priced out
for a pass. Day tickets are too expensive. I don't want to ski Ellen. The last few years
I would get tickets to ski with family when they were staying at my parents place, but
I just can't do it this year.

My younger ripping friends would rather ski Mad and Magic for less, and this year it looks
like a prime ticket to Stowe with the Ski VT card will cost far less on a weekend than the
bush, and all you have to do is show up at the window and buy a ticket.

I hope that the pricing is more attractive in the future to get more slightly younger people back
up there so I can show people my favorite spots, and they can grow into sugarbush skiers, but this
year the Skiing forum for me on SkiMRV will have more to do with what I'm doing up the road at MRG,
and it bums me out along with the businesses on the access road that aren't there that used to provide
some alternative eats and nightlife.

Tin Woodsman
09-21-2010, 11:57 AM
I see a lot more bandwith on this issue than one post. Maybe I am missing something, but you are the only one fired up about how this increase is impacting you. Seems like a lot of energy for what, a few dollar increase? Nobody said it was right or wrong and instead have been responding to your points. I just think that acting like you are entitled to a discount and then complaining because Sugarbush is "being overly aggressive" really undermines what you want to do. Sorry it went up for you. Again, contact Win directly.

Yes - you are missing something. I made one mild post about it, and have spent the rest of my time in this thread responding to nonsensical strawmans about Stowe's CSC discount pricing being the basis for the downfall for AIG.

I'm not entitled to anything other than to state my opinion that it's unfortunate how aggressive they've been with the price point on this program. I think I can say with confidence that they have, in fact, been "overly aggressive" b/c they've been pushing the price of this particular ticket up faster than anyone else and are now well clear of their primary competition whereas they used to be in the upper/middle of the pack (you know, consistent with their other pricing options). If you want to reflexively defend SB in a knee-jerk manner, be my guest. I'll choose not to drink the same Kool-aid.

HowieT2
09-21-2010, 11:57 AM
This thread is too depressing for me, but I'm in the boat that Tin is describing.
I learned to ski at the Bush, worked in the Valley to ski-bum when I was younger,
and just love the mountain. I don't have any problems with the customer service,
I think they do a great job providing a really quality (fun) ski experience.

The extended college pass is a great service. Last years 3 lesson / season pass deal
for newbies was really exciting and innovative, and I practically begged my non-skiing
girlfriend to consider making some of the investment in gear and I would have met her
the rest of the way to make it happen. It was a great idea. (but she declined, regrettably)

But, despite all of this, I will barely ski my favorite mountain this year. I'm priced out
for a pass. Day tickets are too expensive. I don't want to ski Ellen. The last few years
I would get tickets to ski with family when they were staying at my parents place, but
I just can't do it this year.

My younger ripping friends would rather ski Mad and Magic for less, and this year it looks
like a prime ticket to Stowe with the Ski VT card will cost far less on a weekend than the
bush, and all you have to do is show up at the window and buy a ticket.

I hope that the pricing is more attractive in the future to get more slightly younger people back
up there so I can show people my favorite spots, and they can grow into sugarbush skiers, but this
year the Skiing forum for me on SkiMRV will have more to do with what I'm doing up the road at MRG,
and it bums me out along with the businesses on the access road that aren't there that used to provide
some alternative eats and nightlife.

I dont think its fair to compare MRG and Magic to SB and the other major resorts. They simply dont have the costs or provide the same product. The discounted CT ski tickets are comparably priced. I cant see anyone not skiing SB because it is 3 or 4 dollars more. Stowe, however, is a competitor, so how much are the their tickets using the ski-VT card????

Tin Woodsman
09-21-2010, 12:04 PM
I dont think its fair to compare MRG and Magic to SB and the other major resorts. They simply dont have the costs or provide the same product. The discounted CT ski tickets are comparably priced. I cant see anyone not skiing SB because it is 3 or 4 dollars more. Stowe, however, is a competitor, so how much are the their tickets using the ski-VT card????

I may not ski elsewhere b/c of the house issue, but I'll ski less. Not hard to find reasons to cut back in this economy.

HowieT2
09-21-2010, 12:09 PM
I dont think its fair to compare MRG and Magic to SB and the other major resorts. They simply dont have the costs or provide the same product. The discounted CT ski tickets are comparably priced. I cant see anyone not skiing SB because it is 3 or 4 dollars more. Stowe, however, is a competitor, so how much are the their tickets using the ski-VT card????

I may not ski elsewhere b/c of the house issue, but I'll ski less. Not hard to find reasons to cut back in this economy.

You would ski more if they charged $52 as opposed to the $56?? If so, I think you are in a small minority. and it doesn't take that many ski days to make a season pass or even the sugardirect card make sense.

Tin Woodsman
09-21-2010, 12:29 PM
I dont think its fair to compare MRG and Magic to SB and the other major resorts. They simply dont have the costs or provide the same product. The discounted CT ski tickets are comparably priced. I cant see anyone not skiing SB because it is 3 or 4 dollars more. Stowe, however, is a competitor, so how much are the their tickets using the ski-VT card????

I may not ski elsewhere b/c of the house issue, but I'll ski less. Not hard to find reasons to cut back in this economy.

You would ski more if they charged $52 as opposed to the $56?? If so, I think you are in a small minority. and it doesn't take that many ski days to make a season pass or even the sugardirect card make sense.

Howie -

It's about the totality of it. As recently as 2-3 years ago, that ticket was in the mid $40s. Just 5-6 years ago it was in the high $30s. If I'm skiing 15 times a year at SB, that equates to an extra $150-250 dollars. What I'll probably do is buy a few Mad Cards and take my business next door for $33/day to try and even it out while still skiing the same number of days. It's something I've had to do more and more just to keep within my budget. I don't know about you, but my income certainly hasn't increased in recent years, so this is a zero sum game. If I'm going to spend more at SB, then it has to come out of something else.

As for the season pass, when the denominator is the CSC ticket price, the break-even is about 19-20 days, which still doesn't make sense for me. Sugarcard gets me to the mid $60's per day.

mattlucas
09-21-2010, 12:31 PM
My comments aren't really about the CT ticket plan, just thoughts about the general pricing and
the mountain turning more into a family kind of place than a die hard skier kind of place.

die hard doesn't just mean no snow making to me only, and I agree you can't compare the 4 season
type experience of SB to winter at MRG but there used to be more of a middle road here.

HowieT2
09-21-2010, 01:29 PM
I dont think its fair to compare MRG and Magic to SB and the other major resorts. They simply dont have the costs or provide the same product. The discounted CT ski tickets are comparably priced. I cant see anyone not skiing SB because it is 3 or 4 dollars more. Stowe, however, is a competitor, so how much are the their tickets using the ski-VT card????

I may not ski elsewhere b/c of the house issue, but I'll ski less. Not hard to find reasons to cut back in this economy.

You would ski more if they charged $52 as opposed to the $56?? If so, I think you are in a small minority. and it doesn't take that many ski days to make a season pass or even the sugardirect card make sense.

Howie -

It's about the totality of it. As recently as 2-3 years ago, that ticket was in the mid $40s. Just 5-6 years ago it was in the high $30s. If I'm skiing 15 times a year at SB, that equates to an extra $150-250 dollars. What I'll probably do is buy a few Mad Cards and take my business next door for $33/day to try and even it out while still skiing the same number of days. It's something I've had to do more and more just to keep within my budget. I don't know about you, but my income certainly hasn't increased in recent years, so this is a zero sum game. If I'm going to spend more at SB, then it has to come out of something else.

As for the season pass, when the denominator is the CSC ticket price, the break-even is about 19-20 days, which still doesn't make sense for me. Sugarcard gets me to the mid $60's per day.

I love our neighbor to the north, but MRG doesnt provide the same product on the many days when snowmaking/grooming counts. Not to mention the facilities. That's why I dont think its fair to compare the prices of what I refer to as the majors and the others. It is inarguable that costs have risen significantly, not just for skiing but across the board. Heck 5-6 years ago, gas was still around $1/gallon. but SB's prices are not out of line with its competition. If you are using the CT discounted prices, your cost for 15-20 days is only 45-60 more at SB than Stowe, Killington Stratton etc. Comparing the prices to what they were years ago is a non-starter. They are never going back to those levels. The key to the SB pass deal is to have a kid piggyback on your pass.

djd66
09-21-2010, 01:39 PM
The good thing is,... if you guys do go up the road to ski MRG,... (I hear they have great early season snowmaking up there) you can now post your trail report in this room! :D Sorry, could not resist!

Its a $4.00 difference,... yes you are entitled to your opinion, but I say in this case, you get what you pay for.

Hawk
09-21-2010, 01:44 PM
A little news flash. Sking is expensive. Now one said it would be cheap(er). So $4 dollars makes you ski somewhere else? Try giving up that Vente no sugar soy latae. That's worth $4 dollars and you will now be even. :wink:

I could ski anywhere but I choose Sugarbush because it is just plain better. Just fork up the dough and go skiing. WTF. Give up the golf or the dinners out or the new drapes if you have to. SB does not owe you to be cheaper than everybody just because you used to ski there a lot. It drives me crazy to hear people say they have kids and expenses and it to expensive to ski as SB. No kidding.....again sking is expensive. So here is the solution, just get rid of the kids and you will be all set........ :lol:

djd66
09-21-2010, 01:56 PM
A little news flash. Sking is expensive. Now one said it would be cheap(er). So $4 dollars makes you ski somewhere else? Try giving up that Vente no sugar soy latae. That's worth $4 dollars and you will now be even. :wink:

I could ski anywhere but I choose Sugarbush because it is just plain better. Just fork up the dough and go skiing. WTF. Give up the golf or the dinners out or the new drapes if you have to. SB does not owe you to be cheaper than everybody just because you used to ski there a lot. It drives me crazy to hear people say they have kids and expenses and it to expensive to ski as SB. No kidding.....again sking is expensive. So here is the solution, just get rid of the kids and you will be all set........ :lol:

+1

HowieT2
09-21-2010, 01:58 PM
A little news flash. Sking is expensive. Now one said it would be cheap(er). So $4 dollars makes you ski somewhere else? Try giving up that Vente no sugar soy latae. That's worth $4 dollars and you will now be even. :wink:

I could ski anywhere but I choose Sugarbush because it is just plain better. Just fork up the dough and go skiing. WTF. Give up the golf or the dinners out or the new drapes if you have to. SB does not owe you to be cheaper than everybody just because you used to ski there a lot. It drives me crazy to hear people say they have kids and expenses and it to expensive to ski as SB. No kidding.....again sking is expensive. So here is the solution, just get rid of the kids and you will be all set........ :lol:

I've thought about getting rid of the kids, but there are these pesky laws... and besides they ski free with my SB season pass. :lol:

Hawk
09-21-2010, 02:04 PM
A little news flash. Sking is expensive. Now one said it would be cheap(er). So $4 dollars makes you ski somewhere else? Try giving up that Vente no sugar soy latae. That's worth $4 dollars and you will now be even. :wink:

I could ski anywhere but I choose Sugarbush because it is just plain better. Just fork up the dough and go skiing. WTF. Give up the golf or the dinners out or the new drapes if you have to. SB does not owe you to be cheaper than everybody just because you used to ski there a lot. It drives me crazy to hear people say they have kids and expenses and it to expensive to ski as SB. No kidding.....again sking is expensive. So here is the solution, just get rid of the kids and you will be all set........ :lol:

I've thought about getting rid of the kids, but there are these pesky laws... and besides they ski free with my SB season pass. :lol:

Howie that troll was not designed for you. I know you are going to ski.

HowieT2
09-21-2010, 02:12 PM
A little news flash. Sking is expensive. Now one said it would be cheap(er). So $4 dollars makes you ski somewhere else? Try giving up that Vente no sugar soy latae. That's worth $4 dollars and you will now be even. :wink:

I could ski anywhere but I choose Sugarbush because it is just plain better. Just fork up the dough and go skiing. WTF. Give up the golf or the dinners out or the new drapes if you have to. SB does not owe you to be cheaper than everybody just because you used to ski there a lot. It drives me crazy to hear people say they have kids and expenses and it to expensive to ski as SB. No kidding.....again sking is expensive. So here is the solution, just get rid of the kids and you will be all set........ :lol:

I've thought about getting rid of the kids, but there are these pesky laws... and besides they ski free with my SB season pass. :lol:

Howie that troll was not designed for you. I know you are going to ski.

I knew that but couldn't resist. I actually love my kids, especially when they are at sleep away camp all summer. :D

Tin Woodsman
09-21-2010, 02:28 PM
SB surely owes me nothing. Skiing always has and always will be expensive. No one is arguing that.

It's disappointing to see them be the most aggressive in all of VT with this particular program, to the point where the price has increased nearly 50% in the last handful of years. No one expects prices to go back to what they were, but outpacing even the exaggerated inflation of the ski industry by several orders of magnitude seems a bit excessive to me.

I know that MRG doesn't provide the same product - it's an apples and oranges comparison. But on those days when there is good natural snow, the product is very much comparable. Better quantity and more options at SB. Better quality (due to lower skier density) at MRG. I wouldn't want MRG to be my home base in light of the shorter season and inability to quickly recover from warm ups, but it has its moments, and I'll do my best to find them in order to maintain my skiing budget where it is.

ahm
09-21-2010, 04:17 PM
Most of you must be bored to talk about this issue so much. Hopefully, you'll find the time to go cycling, kayaking, hiking or the many other fall activities that are in prime form now and not disect the pricing rationale with massive speculation. Enjoy the fall.

Xskier
09-30-2010, 07:40 PM
Most of you must be bored to talk about this issue so much. Hopefully, you'll find the time to go cycling, kayaking, hiking or the many other fall activities that are in prime form now and not disect the pricing rationale with massive speculation. Enjoy the fall.

Or you all have tons of dough and it doesnt matter.

Hawk
10-01-2010, 08:21 AM
Most of you must be bored to talk about this issue so much. Hopefully, you'll find the time to go cycling, kayaking, hiking or the many other fall activities that are in prime form now and not disect the pricing rationale with massive speculation. Enjoy the fall.

Or you all have tons of dough and it doesnt matter.

Nope not tons of dough. I have something better. Priorities!!! It is money well spent and even if it was more I would do whatever it took to buy the pass.