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mattlucas
04-16-2010, 08:30 AM
Since there are upgrades in the works for next season it would probably be too late to file for the permits to do this but I think it would be a huge benefit to the spring skiing experience and more at the bush.

The Mall holds snow at least as well if not better than Steins Run, has an excellent pitch and character that would not be ruined with a properly installed snowmaking system
and has no traverse at the end to get back to the lift.

Watching people rip bumps is infinitely better than staring at dirt and leaves.

In winter, the base layer that gets blown on places like FIS would make it a significant upgrade to the bump skiing crowd who want longer more consistent lines
with filled in trofts and might make it possible to groom places like Domino who could then be enjoyed more by the intermediate crowd etc when no one wants to ski icy bumps.

In general I can't stand snowmaking, but filling in trails under the liftlines makes sense to me, and with new technology it would seem like the pipes could be put down without widening the trail much if at all.

Otherwise, I just look forward to seeing what the management will do to maintain and improve the infrastructure around the mountain. I guess I fit more into the ski crowd than the luxury ammenity crowd despite the desire for pipes up the VH but I really appreciate seeing the chairs get painted, the bridges looking good over water bars and to know that the on map woods get maintained every summer more than i care about facilities in the base area, but I'm curious to see what they'll do for the ski experience for other people especially if they keep people off the chairs and in the lodge. :D

Have a great summer.

ahm
04-16-2010, 08:44 AM
Nothing should be done to the mall. It is a natural snow trail and should remain that way period. FIS is often an icy mess, while BD skis much nicer due to the natural. The area will never add snowmaking to the mall and it shouldn't.

mattlucas
04-16-2010, 08:53 AM
go hike FIS right now OR buy a cabin cat ride and tell me it's an icy mess.
It's creamy corn and worth every dollar you spend on AT gear or cabin ride to ski it once.

With thoughtful consideration and skill anything is possible, but obviously this is a "pipe dream" as the mountain has other priorities.

summitchallenger
04-16-2010, 08:59 AM
Nothing should be done to the mall. It is a natural snow trail and should remain that way period. FIS is often an icy mess, while BD skis much nicer due to the natural. The area will never add snowmaking to the mall and it shouldn't.

Actually a fair amount of that snow is actually blow-over from FIS (both natural and machine made).


go hike FIS right now OR buy a cabin cat ride and tell me it's an icy mess.
It's creamy corn and worth every dollar you spend on AT gear or cabin ride to ski it once.

On Tuesday ME looked pretty thin in some areas, including FIS because relatively little snow was blown on it.

I think the overall idea of adding SM to Mall is not a bad idea. We saw this season that natural snow was relatively light and some trails could have used some help. That said, snowmaking is available on Exterminator, Lower Brambles, and Cliffs and I don't think any of those trails saw snowmaking this season.

I'd suggest putting up a spur line down to from Lower Deathspout to CR Base, across the bridge, and along the ower part of Middle Earth (where it always melts out).

But my biggest suggestion would be to add compressor capacity to LP so that they can blow more snow.

teleo
04-16-2010, 09:56 AM
I'm with ahm on this one. Keep the mall natural. Although it might be nice to have the mall in the spring, I wouldn't want snowmaking on the mall the rest of the year.

I'm thinking it wouldn't make the priority list anyways, so I'm not to worried.

Lostone
04-16-2010, 10:39 AM
IMNATHO, some trails just work well as natural snow trails. Snowmaking could be installed and run at great expense, but the trails ski well as natural snow trails.

Mall, Twist, Moonshine, Morning Star, Domino, Paradise, Spills, all of Castlerock are the ones that come to mind at South. North has its own compliment.

We need snowmaking. Without it, we would open later, close earlier, and have great recovery problems, after. . . unfortunate weather events. But some trails just work better with natural snow, and there are snowmaking substitutes to get around them, until they... get ripe.

Tin Woodsman
04-16-2010, 01:46 PM
While it would be great to have deeper coverage on The Mall, there are practical considerations that mitigate against the benefits well beyond just quality of skiing surface. First, you've got the relatively low-hanging VH chair above. A lot of snow would end up on those chairs in the form of 6 inch thick piles of solid ice. More importantly, the Mall is relatively narrow, and not only would there be very little room to place those guns, you'd see a lot of snow blow into the woods on either side. This would widen The Mall over time, which really isn't in anyone's interest, b/c of all the trees it would kill. Just look at the status of current snowmaking runs and how they are almost all getting wider every year. You see it on Ripcord, FIS, Hot Shot/Waterfall, Jester and OG pretty easily. Within 10 seasons, you'd see the Mall being 5-10 feet wider for most of it's length. No thanks.

mattlucas
04-16-2010, 06:02 PM
I honestly can't say whether Hot Shot is getting wider, the other trails you mention including FIS and Ripcord and I will throw in Lower Birdland all seem to have the guns on the downhill side of the trail so the mountain blows more up than it should to cover the terrain, resulting in snow getting hung up and over into the woods. Not only does that result in tree loss, it's also kind of annoying if you'd like to go off the trail and find yourself hung up by a not so natural hazard.

The Mall has already been widened in my lifetime, I am sure of it although perhaps it's grown in since.

I feel very strongly that Natural Snow kills Man Made every time, and I'm not even sure that the Low E guns make the best man made product around.
But it seems that every once in awhile, mountain ops does lay down a killer layer or real PP instead of the traditional EC glacial ice. I think part of this has to do with super optimal low humidity conditions or possibly by blowing snow while it's coming from the heavens. Maybe with more capacity or automation they could mix more when possible.

It seems Sugarbush's philosophy the last few years has been to create a base layer and move on unless they plan on going long haul with that trail (E.G. Spring Fling, SB, Steins) and for the most part I'm fine with that unless they need a refresher after it hasn't snowed in a month or so.

As far as the spring goes, while only Sugarbush has Steins Run (and it is a great trail, particularly when the rope first drops and on sunny days in spring) the Mall would make a better Spring venue as it is under the lift and has a better spring aspect. Steins is often not the place to be mid season though, and there is NO reason that every trail has to be treated the same way every year. For instance, I am quite serious about knocking the bumps down on Domino because I feel like that would be a great trail for advanced intermediate types to enjoy and i haven't seen it flat in a long time.

Getting back to the Mall, the snow at the top seems to last so long anyway, if there was a way to cover the bottom by dragging hoses and pointing a canon or two down the hill maybe it would make all the difference. Just something to think about so put away your pitchforks and torches and hope for some real snow before the lifts stop.

P.S.
Jester seems like skier traffic is making it thin, much like the rest of the upper mountain woods, not hoses.

Snowmaking around the bottom of LL, ME, and castlerock run IN would be totally awesome.

I'd be curious to see how much snow the mountain blew compared to years past because I have never seen so many problems at the one spot by Blue Tooth as I have this year.

win
04-17-2010, 11:31 AM
The others answered as well as I could have. The Mall will stay natural. I am very comfortable where we have snowmaking capacity now and don't plan to change it. We will just continuously updgrade the existing system and locations with low energy nozzles. We as well as everyone experience breaks in a snowmaking pipe during the season. This year we did have two breaks on the piple coming up the Access Road but they were fixed within a days and had no impact on the amount of snow we made this year. While we had 100 inches of less snow than the 50 year average, we had an excellent run of snow making temperatures and we had no major thaw. Thus, the snow we made was good quality, it was made efficiently and it lasted. We did not have to remake trails as we have often had to do in past years after a heavy rain and thaw. So we actually were able to pump fewer gallons but get out snowplan for both mountains completed by early February.

Yard Sale
04-17-2010, 11:57 AM
Thanks, Win. Yes keep the Mall natural and do not flatten the bumps on Domino either.

canonizer
04-17-2010, 07:36 PM
The others answered as well as I could have. The Mall will stay natural. I am very comfortable where we have snowmaking capacity now and don't plan to change it. We will just continuously updgrade the existing system and locations with low energy nozzles. We as well as everyone experience breaks in a snowmaking pipe during the season. This year we did have two breaks on the piple coming up the Access Road but they were fixed within a days and had no impact on the amount of snow we made this year. While we had 100 inches of less snow than the 50 year average, we had an excellent run of snow making temperatures and we had no major thaw. Thus, the snow we made was good quality, it was made efficiently and it lasted. We did not have to remake trails as we have often had to do in past years after a heavy rain and thaw. So we actually were able to pump fewer gallons but get out snowplan for both mountains completed by early February.

Win, were the breaks indicative of systemic problems with the pipes? Word around the mountain was that we will be expecting similar problems for the years to come since the pipes may have been put in with an economical rather than a longterm view. Have you expanded snowmaking coverage since purchasing the mountain?

As far as the attrition of trees is considered, skiers take a much broader off-piste attitude than they did in decades past. Unless the mountain is going to rope off areas for reforestation proactively for years at a time, similar to MRG's approach, we can only expect further deterioration of the tree coverage. I would welcome, and have often wished to see, a long rope covering the top of ripcord for that very reason.

The mall, with very little help, skis for such a long time and better coverage at the bottom would help the trail last even longer. I don't see a creative suggestion as the root of evil. Natural snow is great...and, when it's there in abundance, no one's suggesting spraying down the hill with poor consistency man-made cover.

Why was there so much grooming on Stein's in the 70 degree weather?

shadyjay
04-17-2010, 07:50 PM
I second the notion to keep The Mall au'natural.

And don't forget of those trails which do have snowmaking capabilities, but are retained in a natural snow state... Lower Birdland and I think Exterminator didn't see the guns this year. I don't think I've EVER seen snowmaking actually being done on Lower Birdland.

Domino, on the other hand... if she was flatter, she'd make a good alternative to Downspout. :wink:

HowieT2
04-17-2010, 08:14 PM
is the upper part of Domino easily groomable? It never gets groomed.

shadyjay
04-17-2010, 10:34 PM
is the upper part of Domino easily groomable? It never gets groomed.


Seeing as how it used to be a blue square on 1990s-era trail maps, I'm assuming it must've been groomed with some regularity. It must be easier to groom, then say Stein's, FIS, Ripcord, 'Grinder, and such. It's not super wide, and not terribly steep.

I like the lower half presently more than the upper... that part wouldn't necessarily need grooming, since most traffic would take that left onto HG Traverse, still giving some au'natural fun to the intermediate folk outside of Moonshine, on that side of the mtn.

win
04-18-2010, 09:53 AM
The Pipe that ASC put in is getting old and it was not the best quality to start with, so it will have to be replaced in the near future. The greatest vulnerability is where the pressure in the greatest- basically from Terra Rosa up to the Sugarbush Inn. This is a major Capex expenditure as you can imagine, so we are looking at the best time to undertake it. It also has to e carefully coordinated with the Town.

There was not "alot of Grooming of Stein's in 70 degree weather." We groomed it once to set it up for the rest of the Spring. The trail was filled that morning with skies having a blast and by early afternoon it had wonderful soft moguls again. If the snow had allowed, I would have groomed it one more time, but it was been too wet and soft.

mattlucas
04-19-2010, 03:48 PM
This thread seems to have played itself out pretty well.

I was curious about one last thing though, did not enough people participate in late season skiing this year to keep the mountain open another week?
In years past, when you went to $25 tickets did enough people show up to justify the additional labor to keep the mountain open?

Management seemed so enthusiastic about spring skiing the last few years with parties and deals to keep people enjoying themselves, and this year while
having less of that I saw the biggest spring crowds I can remember. My only guess is that with the parking area in dissaray it made less sense to invite guests.

regardless, it's Monday and I'll cross my fingers for a wednesday dump and one more week.

Thanks for all this season, if it doesn't snow i'll be up soon to swim, hike, bike and eat outside. Hope many of you get to do the same.

summitchallenger
04-19-2010, 08:29 PM
FWIW my understanding is that this was not an issue of running out of snow, or skiers, but of enthusiasm on the part of management. It is hard for the resort to promote spring skiing when there is only one or two trails open for such a long period of time. Would folks ski at SB with 2 runs, 4 trails or at Sugarloaf, with 55+ trails? Therein lies the problem. Throw in some rain and staff who were said to be very tired and worn out from a tough year and you had the end. I guess the thinking was bronze was good enough for this year with regards to being last to open in Vermont. I think that Stein's had at least another week or so, especially considering the cool temps for this week. I also heard that the idea of closing midweek was not attractive because folks were going to get angry watching the snow melt midweek. There is plenty to hike for....

I will also note that in comparison to years past the last two weekends the atmosphere seemed more like a morgue than the Sugarbush I am used to. It was downright creepy to be in Valley House with no lights and nobody around. At least turn on some music or something. Valley House the week before was just a sad scene with no tables and again a feeling that the place had died.

skiladi
04-19-2010, 09:37 PM
http://www.jamiegemmiti.com/p229255181/e22514ff#h22514ff Hey , I hiked for one trail. But it WAS the Sherburne. ; }

skibum1321
04-20-2010, 05:46 AM
Honestly, if you look at the weather on the weekends this spring it is pretty obvious why they never got the crowds. Most weekends were forecast to be rainy and cool/cold - not exactly the weather that brings out the masses. I, personally, did not bother to make the trip to ski even once this spring since the weather was typically forecast to be better in Mass than VT.

Hawk
04-20-2010, 06:31 AM
Being someone who usually skis to the bitter end of the season at whatever mountian has snow, I would add the following observations. I think the lack of people at the hill this weekend has more to do with the weather at home and the weather up north. The last coule of weeks of 70 to 80 degrees in the metro areas has put most people into Spring mode. I have tons of friends who have pulled out the bikes and started the season. Also the early warm weather has made people start the yard work and projects earlier. This coupled with the cloudy rainy/snowy weather brought down the season. The last weekends need to be sunny and warm.

FWIW the 55 trails at the Loaf means nothing to me. I would much rather ski Steins then deal with the Loaf's snobby attitude. Been there done that. Also Killington used to have skiing until June on 1 trail Superstar and hundreds of people would show up every weekend. I do not think that trail count has anything to do with it either.

summitchallenger
04-20-2010, 07:12 AM
FWIW the 55 trails at the Loaf means nothing to me. I would much rather ski Steins then deal with the Loaf's snobby attitude.

I spent a weekend up there in March and my SO had a ski house up there when she was growing up. If anything, the place is very friendly and not snobby at all. Sounds like you must have had a bad experience but that is not the norm.


Also Killington used to have skiing until June on 1 trail Superstar and hundreds of people would show up every weekend. I do not think that trail count has anything to do with it either.

Killington was the only thing open in June, so their one trail was the only game in town. That is moot when arguing that "trail count" does not matter. As to to trail count this past weekend, that does influence people as to where to go, especially considering that Sugarloaf was $49 a day last weekend and Sugarbush was $50.

Hawk
04-20-2010, 07:48 AM
FWIW the 55 trails at the Loaf means nothing to me. I would much rather ski Steins then deal with the Loaf's snobby attitude.

I spent a weekend up there in March and my SO had a ski house up there when she was growing up. If anything, the place is very friendly and not snobby at all. Sounds like you must have had a bad experience but that is not the norm.


Also Killington used to have skiing until June on 1 trail Superstar and hundreds of people would show up every weekend. I do not think that trail count has anything to do with it either.

Killington was the only thing open in June, so their one trail was the only game in town. That is moot when arguing that "trail count" does not matter. As to to trail count this past weekend, that does influence people as to where to go, especially considering that Sugarloaf was $49 a day last weekend and Sugarbush was $50.

Summit, I used to ski Maine exclusively for about 15 years and have many, many days in at the loaf. I also have lots of friends from my home town area that ski the loaf as regulars so when I have this opinion about the loaf it is from vast experience I speak. I wouldn't ski the loaf if it was for free.... unless it was the only show in town. :wink:
Also, price and trail count has absolutely no impact on my decision of where to ski. This is the same with all of my crew. My point was that Killington stayed packed all spring long with whatever the count. And the atmosphere there used to be electric. You and I see things different.

win
04-20-2010, 06:48 PM
Hey Friends,

No one likes to ski more than I. I also am really bored this time of year when there is no skiing. But as I said in another Thread. "an old friend once told me: there is a time to come and a time to go and the time has go has come" this year. My team was unanimous last Thursday given the forecast and demand that the time had come to close. Hopefully, next year with Easter on April 24 and a better snowfall in March and April we can last into May.

Thanks to everyone for your passion!

ps: I also suspect that non-lift skiing will last a bit longer!

skiladi
04-21-2010, 08:32 AM
I agree with Summit on having good experiences at the loaf , especially when the snowfields are open. I've never had any issues with "snobby" people. But I have never skied Saddleback and would like to get there next season. Hawk and others , ever been?

Treeskier
04-21-2010, 11:58 AM
If I was not hurt I would have skied all weekend. Rain or snow. Then Skied Killington on my way home Monday so I would have equipment available to ski what ever has the most snow next weekend....since my favorite home MT had closed. It did sadden me to see more snow on Monday as I left then on Friday upon my arrival. Hawk. An interesting observation. According to my friend K. and his wife L., who skied Friday and Saturday up at Jay. They want to stay into Sunday but every room around was sold out. It was there big Pond Skimming Party event weekend. Plus it was also Reggie fest at the Loaf (who by the way is the only MT not to have been greatly effected by the warmth, too far east). So even if it was Sunny this weekend. For the transient skier of NE it was not our weekend. That said in April we usually have at least one rainy one of the 4-5. Got that over with. I guess like my injury it was not my/our year. I hope next year with a late Easter we all get to ski deep snow like 2007. Into May and beyond.

summitchallenger
04-21-2010, 03:45 PM
Just a thought......

http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?p=25666#25666

John Walden
04-26-2010, 06:02 PM
The Mall has gotten wider every year. I have skiied the Mall for the last 30 years and I remember when there was one line on either side of the towers. Don't even think about snowmaking there, it makes no sense.

mattlucas
04-28-2010, 04:38 PM
if a new lift goes in it will get significantly wider again but whatever happens it will always have a better aspect for spring skiing than steins.

Hawk
04-29-2010, 06:38 AM
Matt, the aspects are almost the same. But that has very little to do with spring skiing. In fact you want more sun on the run to soften the snow. Advantage Steins.
Mall has a double fall line for the most part and Steins not so much. Advantage Steins.
This is not out west so the depth of snow making dictates the length of season. Steins has snowmaking and the Mall.....let's not go there again. Advantage Steins.

The Mall is a classic natural snow trail and is never groomed. The result is that it get's less traffic and the majority of people that ski it are expert. In the end the bumps form in nice lines on the skiers left side and are usually soft and fun. NO one wants to screw with this except you.....and who said that installing a new lift would make the trail wider. They haven't even committed to replacing the lift yet and most agree that it would not be anything more than a triple or maybe even a replacement double.

Just let it go dude...... :wink:

mattlucas
04-29-2010, 12:02 PM
I'm ok with having an unpopular opinion here.

Steins has the double fall line and that's why you end up on one side of the trail, unlike the mall.
Also, the aspect isn't the same. Steins is due north and the mall is NE and gets far less sun.

The natural snow argument makes no sense to me as every trail skis better with natural snow and it's only about how you use snowmaking anyway.
- Whether it's truly impossible to blow down the hill effectively or not waste too much getting hung up on chairs I have no idea -

But, the Mall is a straight shot and it is possible to run pipe up it at least without destroying the character of the trail, unlike a Middle Earth or something
like that. I understand that snowmaking will not happen and that it is lowest priority but it's naive to think a spring venue under the lift would be inferior or that
when chairs get strung up the trail won't get wider again.

HowieT2
04-29-2010, 01:35 PM
I'm ok with having an unpopular opinion here.

Steins has the double fall line and that's why you end up on one side of the trail, unlike the mall.
Also, the aspect isn't the same. Steins is due north and the mall is NE and gets far less sun.

The natural snow argument makes no sense to me as every trail skis better with natural snow and it's only about how you use snowmaking anyway.
- Whether it's truly impossible to blow down the hill effectively or not waste too much getting hung up on chairs I have no idea -

But, the Mall is a straight shot and it is possible to run pipe up it at least without destroying the character of the trail, unlike a Middle Earth or something
like that. I understand that snowmaking will not happen and that it is lowest priority but it's naive to think a spring venue under the lift would be inferior or that
when chairs get strung up the trail won't get wider again.

FWIW-word is that the VH lift will not be replaced in the foreseeable future.